Porsche -- planned obsolescence is too slow
02-24-2011, 09:29 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
^ No surprise that the majority of Macca buyers are porsche owners.
02-24-2011, 09:29 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
02-24-2011, 09:29 PM
#18
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McLaren; I do see your point, but I'm waiting for the $135K non turbo one and some decent local track support.
99% of the future Porsches might suck, but the 1% GT3 might still be good and if that fails the current one is still pretty OK...
Let them sell the Panamera GTS2 RSR S4 TT landaulet limited edition.
If ballers buy them and it helps building track cars that hold together for less money, more power to them..
I would not mind a 2500lbs stripper mini Cayman 4 cyl turbo in the style of an S2000 fixed top Turbo..
99% of the future Porsches might suck, but the 1% GT3 might still be good and if that fails the current one is still pretty OK...
Let them sell the Panamera GTS2 RSR S4 TT landaulet limited edition.
If ballers buy them and it helps building track cars that hold together for less money, more power to them..
I would not mind a 2500lbs stripper mini Cayman 4 cyl turbo in the style of an S2000 fixed top Turbo..
02-24-2011, 10:11 PM
#20
Pro
Are you guys reading the same text that I am?
(1) Confirms one and basically announces a 2nd supercar from Porsche
(2) Porsche to be *the* sportscar and supercar center of excellence for all of Audi (i.e. New Lambo is actually engineered in Weissach)
(3) Confirms 911 is the bedrock of the brand and the model for the rest of it
I don't know how the future can get brighter.
(1) Confirms one and basically announces a 2nd supercar from Porsche
(2) Porsche to be *the* sportscar and supercar center of excellence for all of Audi (i.e. New Lambo is actually engineered in Weissach)
(3) Confirms 911 is the bedrock of the brand and the model for the rest of it
I don't know how the future can get brighter.
02-25-2011, 12:39 AM
#24
GT3 player par excellence
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I wonder if "Porsche" engineering (not VW group) is capable of delivering a new model/variant every 12 months? although I suppose that GTS+cab, speedster, and "black" edition and Cayman R within months of each other are examples of such!
we will have to split the forum
991-GT3-2013
991-GT3-2014
991-GT3-2015...
we will have to split the forum
991-GT3-2013
991-GT3-2014
991-GT3-2015...
991-GT3-2013
991-GT3-2014
991-GT3-2015
991-GT3-2013 china edition
991-GT3-2014 china edition
991-GT3-2015 china edition
991-GT3-2013 dubai special
991-GT3-2014 dubai special
991-GT3-2015 dubai special
991-GT3-2013 4.0L R
991-GT3-2014 4.0L R
991-GT3-2015 4.0L R
991-GT3-2013 4.2L RSRR
991-GT3-2014 4.2L RSRR
991-GT3-2015 4.2L RSRR
02-25-2011, 12:40 AM
#25
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02-25-2011, 01:46 AM
#26
Wordsmith
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Maybe there's still hope..
Spoke to Müller in Detroit during a round-table discussion with 3-4 other editors and writers. Some of his quotes appear in my next Commentary. Some of what he said in this interview is possibly being misinterpreted given what he said in Detroit. His plan, as described on my iPhone recording, is to have seven model lines, with one major new model introduced each year and then smaller "events" (derivatives, etc.) during the rest of the year.
I do find the idea of 22 derivatives as a model for other lines discouraging, but I don't know what the extent of that could look like. I for one am glad that they added two derivatives to the 987 line lately, and think a lot of the angst toward the various 911 derivatives could be cleaned up pretty easily (were it me, I'd get rid of the "S" models, then make wide bodywork and roof configuration options without names...because they're plain for all to see. That would leave, what, Carrera 2, Carrera 4, GTx, and Turbo it's been too long since a plain Carrera inspired awe, this despite the fact it's one of the sweetest version of them all to drive.
I found the 200,000 units projection to be a stunning piece of info, and there were other statements that surprised and, yes, discouraged me. On the other hand, however, PAG needs to make money, and VAG has projections it wants to get to and Porsche will have to pull its weight getting there. I had hoped that Porsche under Piech would be treated more like Lambo or Bentley (emphasis on the more in more like) than another Audi. There's a part of me that holds out hope, however, faint, that all this is a version of the kind of red herrings we saw during the first stage of the merger and Piech has plans to do truly interesting things with PAG. Emphasis here on faint.
Either way, I think it's too early to say what's next for Porsche AG. I recall the early days of the 996 and all the doomsayers, but the cars were pretty good. Going back to some of the editorials about the demise of the 911 after the 911 SC ("the 911 is as good as it can be made, and that's why the 928 is the future") don't look so prescient now. That said, there weren't SUVs and sedans to cloud the brand's purity in either of those cases, with huge volumes. Frankly, I don't and have never cared about "exclusivity." I know some do, however! I simply care about the cars as tools, and that they are good enough drives to look past the inevitable poseur factor that comes with any popular sporting car.
My biggest concern with re: to Porsche is its identity, how the 911 or sports cars can be considered its core product when they really aren't. The 911 can now be a dog in terms of sales and have far less impact on the bottom line. Also not sure how I feel about Porsches being "adapted" to other uses, and whether GM and all its platform sharing was really more advanced than we all thought, and whether some companies following in its tracks will learn similar lessons.
As always, time will tell.
pete
I do find the idea of 22 derivatives as a model for other lines discouraging, but I don't know what the extent of that could look like. I for one am glad that they added two derivatives to the 987 line lately, and think a lot of the angst toward the various 911 derivatives could be cleaned up pretty easily (were it me, I'd get rid of the "S" models, then make wide bodywork and roof configuration options without names...because they're plain for all to see. That would leave, what, Carrera 2, Carrera 4, GTx, and Turbo it's been too long since a plain Carrera inspired awe, this despite the fact it's one of the sweetest version of them all to drive.
I found the 200,000 units projection to be a stunning piece of info, and there were other statements that surprised and, yes, discouraged me. On the other hand, however, PAG needs to make money, and VAG has projections it wants to get to and Porsche will have to pull its weight getting there. I had hoped that Porsche under Piech would be treated more like Lambo or Bentley (emphasis on the more in more like) than another Audi. There's a part of me that holds out hope, however, faint, that all this is a version of the kind of red herrings we saw during the first stage of the merger and Piech has plans to do truly interesting things with PAG. Emphasis here on faint.
Either way, I think it's too early to say what's next for Porsche AG. I recall the early days of the 996 and all the doomsayers, but the cars were pretty good. Going back to some of the editorials about the demise of the 911 after the 911 SC ("the 911 is as good as it can be made, and that's why the 928 is the future") don't look so prescient now. That said, there weren't SUVs and sedans to cloud the brand's purity in either of those cases, with huge volumes. Frankly, I don't and have never cared about "exclusivity." I know some do, however! I simply care about the cars as tools, and that they are good enough drives to look past the inevitable poseur factor that comes with any popular sporting car.
My biggest concern with re: to Porsche is its identity, how the 911 or sports cars can be considered its core product when they really aren't. The 911 can now be a dog in terms of sales and have far less impact on the bottom line. Also not sure how I feel about Porsches being "adapted" to other uses, and whether GM and all its platform sharing was really more advanced than we all thought, and whether some companies following in its tracks will learn similar lessons.
As always, time will tell.
pete
The way you shed light on the problem makes sense ... slip VW your resume and see if they'll kick this Mueller guy to the curb and let you prize victory from the jaws of defeat.
As for the quickie post in AutoWeek, I don't take it as law, but I don't accept this "quoted poorly" stuff for a moment. I just watched Rumsfeld on the Daily Show trying to play the "oh, I said so many other things, I was just quoted poorly..." Garbage. Rumsfeld, Chaney, Bush, Rove ... they wanted war to feed money to their military industrial complex buddies just as they played out the game to harvest the mortgage industry for their banker buddies. It's not subject to interpretation or misquotation.
Mueller said in so many words, the plan is to proliferate the Porsche brand with year over year launches. In simple terms: milk it dry. Same with the Lambo-audi-gini ... milk the brand and sell robot designed and robot built Audi's with Lambo badges.
Anyways, we can bleet and fret, but the corporate execs will focus on their earnings reports and their personal bonus structure. Have any of these effete nancy boys ever worked on their race car until daybreak to make the grid and finish the race? Do they even have a little grit and grease under their finger nails from a weekend DIY on their Porsche or a fastidious detailing session preparing for a Concours? Each to his own -- racing on second hand valve springs and string alignment or cue-tip cleansing of the air vents -- are they really Porsche enthusiasts? Could a real Porschephile even contemplate these plans?
02-25-2011, 02:57 AM
#28
Spoke to Müller in Detroit during a round-table discussion with 3-4 other editors and writers. Some of his quotes appear in my next Commentary. Some of what he said in this interview is possibly being misinterpreted given what he said in Detroit. His plan, as described on my iPhone recording, is to have seven model lines, with one major new model introduced each year and then smaller "events" (derivatives, etc.) during the rest of the year.
I do find the idea of 22 derivatives as a model for other lines discouraging, but I don't know what the extent of that could look like. I for one am glad that they added two derivatives to the 987 line lately, and think a lot of the angst toward the various 911 derivatives could be cleaned up pretty easily (were it me, I'd get rid of the "S" models, then make wide bodywork and roof configuration options without names...because they're plain for all to see. That would leave, what, Carrera 2, Carrera 4, GTx, and Turbo — it's been too long since a plain Carrera inspired awe, this despite the fact it's one of the sweetest version of them all to drive.
I found the 200,000 units projection to be a stunning piece of info, and there were other statements that surprised and, yes, discouraged me. On the other hand, however, PAG needs to make money, and VAG has projections it wants to get to and Porsche will have to pull its weight getting there. I had hoped that Porsche under Piech would be treated more like Lambo or Bentley (emphasis on the more in more like) than another Audi. There's a part of me that holds out hope, however, faint, that all this is a version of the kind of red herrings we saw during the first stage of the merger and Piech has plans to do truly interesting things with PAG. Emphasis here on faint.
Either way, I think it's too early to say what's next for Porsche AG. I recall the early days of the 996 and all the doomsayers, but the cars were pretty good. Going back to some of the editorials about the demise of the 911 after the 911 SC ("the 911 is as good as it can be made, and that's why the 928 is the future") don't look so prescient now. That said, there weren't SUVs and sedans to cloud the brand's purity in either of those cases, with huge volumes. Frankly, I don't and have never cared about "exclusivity." I know some do, however! I simply care about the cars as tools, and that they are good enough drives to look past the inevitable poseur factor that comes with any popular sporting car.
My biggest concern with re: to Porsche is its identity, how the 911 — or sports cars — can be considered its core product when they really aren't. The 911 can now be a dog in terms of sales and have far less impact on the bottom line. Also not sure how I feel about Porsches being "adapted" to other uses, and whether GM and all its platform sharing was really more advanced than we all thought, and whether some companies following in its tracks will learn similar lessons.
As always, time will tell.
pete
I do find the idea of 22 derivatives as a model for other lines discouraging, but I don't know what the extent of that could look like. I for one am glad that they added two derivatives to the 987 line lately, and think a lot of the angst toward the various 911 derivatives could be cleaned up pretty easily (were it me, I'd get rid of the "S" models, then make wide bodywork and roof configuration options without names...because they're plain for all to see. That would leave, what, Carrera 2, Carrera 4, GTx, and Turbo — it's been too long since a plain Carrera inspired awe, this despite the fact it's one of the sweetest version of them all to drive.
I found the 200,000 units projection to be a stunning piece of info, and there were other statements that surprised and, yes, discouraged me. On the other hand, however, PAG needs to make money, and VAG has projections it wants to get to and Porsche will have to pull its weight getting there. I had hoped that Porsche under Piech would be treated more like Lambo or Bentley (emphasis on the more in more like) than another Audi. There's a part of me that holds out hope, however, faint, that all this is a version of the kind of red herrings we saw during the first stage of the merger and Piech has plans to do truly interesting things with PAG. Emphasis here on faint.
Either way, I think it's too early to say what's next for Porsche AG. I recall the early days of the 996 and all the doomsayers, but the cars were pretty good. Going back to some of the editorials about the demise of the 911 after the 911 SC ("the 911 is as good as it can be made, and that's why the 928 is the future") don't look so prescient now. That said, there weren't SUVs and sedans to cloud the brand's purity in either of those cases, with huge volumes. Frankly, I don't and have never cared about "exclusivity." I know some do, however! I simply care about the cars as tools, and that they are good enough drives to look past the inevitable poseur factor that comes with any popular sporting car.
My biggest concern with re: to Porsche is its identity, how the 911 — or sports cars — can be considered its core product when they really aren't. The 911 can now be a dog in terms of sales and have far less impact on the bottom line. Also not sure how I feel about Porsches being "adapted" to other uses, and whether GM and all its platform sharing was really more advanced than we all thought, and whether some companies following in its tracks will learn similar lessons.
As always, time will tell.
pete
I suspect that what he means is that (for example) in Year 1 there will be a new 911, then year two would bring a new Cayenne, year three a new Boxster/Cayman, etc, etc , until we got around to it being the 911's turn again. This way , there is a "new" car for every model range every 5-7 years.
02-25-2011, 05:53 AM
#29
Rennlist Member
^ I'll give him the benefit of doubt. So 5-7 years per cycle for each major model line. All fair, but what about the offerings within each line? PAG's recent behavior with the 30-something 911s variants has been suspect at best.
A complicated product map with overlapping offerings is a one of the signs that a company's lost its plot. Apple in the early 90s, Big Auto pre-credit crisis, Nokia the last five years...
Slim down the offerings within each product line. Look at any other premier marque--who other than Porsche has thirteen--AN EFFIN THIRTEEN--premiere hardtop sportscars on offer at the same time (in just the 911 category alone?) Porsche marketing calls it diversity but any objective bystander would look at this spaghetti ball and laugh.
I second the other poster's idea of a simplified product line: an NA 2WD, an NA 4WD, a turbo and then the GTx's. Make the roof, trimmings, power packages and everything else options. At the end of the day it'll be good business for everyone, PAG and consumers alike.
A complicated product map with overlapping offerings is a one of the signs that a company's lost its plot. Apple in the early 90s, Big Auto pre-credit crisis, Nokia the last five years...
Slim down the offerings within each product line. Look at any other premier marque--who other than Porsche has thirteen--AN EFFIN THIRTEEN--premiere hardtop sportscars on offer at the same time (in just the 911 category alone?) Porsche marketing calls it diversity but any objective bystander would look at this spaghetti ball and laugh.
I second the other poster's idea of a simplified product line: an NA 2WD, an NA 4WD, a turbo and then the GTx's. Make the roof, trimmings, power packages and everything else options. At the end of the day it'll be good business for everyone, PAG and consumers alike.
02-25-2011, 08:17 AM
#30
The Rebel
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Make a business case which illustrates that PAG will have higher earnings by offering options/packages rather than the current marketing idea of "it's a seperate model" and they will undoubtedly go that route.
Btw I agree that they should be options/packages.
However the marketing "geniuses" couldn't attach the exclusivity angle to them. Which in turn would mean that they wouldn't be able to gouge and overcharge for a "parts bin special", as they do today.
Having said that, I'm really looking forward to the 4.0 GT3 RSR!
Btw I agree that they should be options/packages.
However the marketing "geniuses" couldn't attach the exclusivity angle to them. Which in turn would mean that they wouldn't be able to gouge and overcharge for a "parts bin special", as they do today.
Having said that, I'm really looking forward to the 4.0 GT3 RSR!