Cayman R
11-11-2010, 01:55 PM
#76
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If you look at all the mild steel and stamped sheet metal in a 911, there's absolutely no basis whatsoever for Porsche to suggest it would be anything more than child's play to take weight out of their product.
When I look around the "oh so light" 2010 RS, the steel bands and clamps, the bolts that at 20% longer than necessary, the stamped brackets and clamps that could be plastic or composite instead of steel, and the cheap construction technology from the 80's like rolled sheet metal with spot welds -- there's so much weight in the car that could be gone with a few keystrokes from the engineering desk and some design work.
The resistance to change is profit, is not a lack of potential innovation -- they've got their OEMs into contracts, they've got their warehouse inventory (even though it's all just-in-time and virtual, it still "exists") and they've got their return on investment and sunk costs.
There's no need to compromise passenger cell safety or crumple zones. There's no need to increase costs with expensive alloys or composites -- other than to improve rigidity or lower the centre of gravity or reduce unsprung weight for example (all of which go to performance, comfort and safety.)
The thing that makes a modern 911 heavy and slow is the balance sheet.
When I look around the "oh so light" 2010 RS, the steel bands and clamps, the bolts that at 20% longer than necessary, the stamped brackets and clamps that could be plastic or composite instead of steel, and the cheap construction technology from the 80's like rolled sheet metal with spot welds -- there's so much weight in the car that could be gone with a few keystrokes from the engineering desk and some design work.
The resistance to change is profit, is not a lack of potential innovation -- they've got their OEMs into contracts, they've got their warehouse inventory (even though it's all just-in-time and virtual, it still "exists") and they've got their return on investment and sunk costs.
There's no need to compromise passenger cell safety or crumple zones. There's no need to increase costs with expensive alloys or composites -- other than to improve rigidity or lower the centre of gravity or reduce unsprung weight for example (all of which go to performance, comfort and safety.)
The thing that makes a modern 911 heavy and slow is the balance sheet.
I also thing that dropping some weight of the current models would be from an engineering POV relatively easy but the cost would be prohibited.
VW managed to cut production costs of the new 6th generation VW Golf by
about 1000EUR per vehicle compared to the older one and at the same time the newer car is lighter than the car it replaces by 28kg and aced the latest Euro NCAP testing.
The Polo again is cheaper safer cleaner and weighs 1080kg vs. the 1199kg of the older one.
Also the VW - Cayenne is already lighter than the previous model.
I don’t see why Porsche won’t or can't do with the 991 series and on, especially now that the decision making has moved to Wolfsburg.
Even a basic 911 with 380hp and under 1300kg would be so great. : )
11-11-2010, 01:56 PM
#77
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Here's an interesting excerpt from Automobile Magazine's review of the 2012 MB CLS 550. Imagine having to use your turn signal in order to execute an emergency avoidance maneuver?
"This was less of a joke to a couple of Aussie journalists, who each encountered the dark side of the new optional Active Lane Keeping Assist (one of twelve "intelligent" driver-assist electronic aids on the CLS equipment list) on our Tuscan drive route. One of the Aussies tried to move right to avoid an oncoming car, and the CLS suddenly jerked back into the lane. He forced it back right and missed a collision. His buddy did the same thing when a motorcycle was pulling past him from behind. The CLS jerked hard left, forcing the bike to make a quick evasive move. One engineer explained that if you use your turn signal during these emergency moves, it will cancel the Lane Keeping action. Another said the best idea is to turn off that function when you are on two-lane roads. Not such a good thing when your smart system counts on the driver being smart, too...."
11-11-2010, 02:15 PM
#78
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Wow this thread has become a Nor-Cal convention. I like it.
I agree there is no way around the fact that most buyers of new P-cars completely ignore weight. I remember seeing a statistic back in the mid-2000's that in '03-'04 the top selling type of 911 was the C4S Cab Tiptronic... a 3,700lb car by the time you add in Bose, full pwr seats, etc. Gearheads like us probably make up 0.01% of their new car sales (we often buy 2nd hand, CPO, etc), so although we (and Porsche engineers) might want trim the fat in order to allow the 991 to have a curb weight <2,900, I wonder what would happen to their sales #'s?
As a compromise I suppose they could extend their approach of offering very sparse standard equipment and move EVERYTHING heavy to the options list. The "base" car would be like a blank canvas: no sunroof, no PASM, no PCM, sport-bucket seats, euro-spec base radio (2 speakers max), no headlight washers, minimal sound-deadening, etc.
Of course, if they did that most cars would still leave the lot loaded up with 36-way power seats and nineteen subwoofers. Only Mooty would buy the stripper version, then the other 7 of us would take turns owning it for years after he got bored... resulting in only 1 sale on Porsche's books. Porsche shareholders would sue management for gross incompetence.
Which puts us right back where we are today... if you want a simple lightweight 911, buy used and strip it.
I agree there is no way around the fact that most buyers of new P-cars completely ignore weight. I remember seeing a statistic back in the mid-2000's that in '03-'04 the top selling type of 911 was the C4S Cab Tiptronic... a 3,700lb car by the time you add in Bose, full pwr seats, etc. Gearheads like us probably make up 0.01% of their new car sales (we often buy 2nd hand, CPO, etc), so although we (and Porsche engineers) might want trim the fat in order to allow the 991 to have a curb weight <2,900, I wonder what would happen to their sales #'s?
As a compromise I suppose they could extend their approach of offering very sparse standard equipment and move EVERYTHING heavy to the options list. The "base" car would be like a blank canvas: no sunroof, no PASM, no PCM, sport-bucket seats, euro-spec base radio (2 speakers max), no headlight washers, minimal sound-deadening, etc.
Of course, if they did that most cars would still leave the lot loaded up with 36-way power seats and nineteen subwoofers. Only Mooty would buy the stripper version, then the other 7 of us would take turns owning it for years after he got bored... resulting in only 1 sale on Porsche's books. Porsche shareholders would sue management for gross incompetence.
Which puts us right back where we are today... if you want a simple lightweight 911, buy used and strip it.
Last edited by quickxotica; 11-11-2010 at 03:21 PM.
11-11-2010, 03:14 PM
#79
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11-11-2010, 03:22 PM
#80
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By "thrust of the [I assume] Sport Classic and Speedster", do you mean price vs. performance? And do you think [I assume] Boxster Spyder sales are poor? Considering its limited appeal, I'm actually surprised by the sales numbers.
I agree that the center console and electronic e-brake in the upcoming 911 (I don't see how it can be called that any longer) is very depressing (dead serious...definitely no pun intended).
11-11-2010, 06:59 PM
#81
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Pete, could you clarify? I assume that you expect the new engine family to be used for the long-term (as do I).
By "thrust of the [I assume] Sport Classic and Speedster", do you mean price vs. performance? And do you think [I assume] Boxster Spyder sales are poor? Considering its limited appeal, I'm actually surprised by the sales numbers.
I agree that the center console and electronic e-brake in the upcoming 911 (I don't see how it can be called that any longer) is very depressing (dead serious...definitely no pun intended).
By "thrust of the [I assume] Sport Classic and Speedster", do you mean price vs. performance? And do you think [I assume] Boxster Spyder sales are poor? Considering its limited appeal, I'm actually surprised by the sales numbers.
I agree that the center console and electronic e-brake in the upcoming 911 (I don't see how it can be called that any longer) is very depressing (dead serious...definitely no pun intended).
Yep.
And yep, kind of. Lot of Spyders seem to be sitting, many with PDK and other (I am guessing here) dealer choice options.
pete
