Possible to convert MK2 GT3 Centerlock to 5 Bolt?
09-27-2010, 08:04 PM
#16
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^ now imagine if you need to swap tires/wheels for practice, qual, and race. i did that two weekends ago on 5 lug wheels that was already a headache.....
09-27-2010, 08:13 PM
#17
For me, it is to install Dymag wheels (5-bolt for GT3 that made in 2009 with the aluminum/magnesium centers Vs the Magnesium only center the made before 2009).
I had a 2009 set on my 2008 M3, and the wheels were amazing, zero issues even under hard tracking. The car's better road connection alone, is worth it for me. Add the fact that I wont have to worry about the CL tightening steps, carrying a torque bar, worry about changing a flat in the middle of nowhere without the right tools, not having to flatbed the car because of it, and lower unsprung weight: Priceless
If Dymag was still in business and made a CL wheel for the Mk2 GT3, I might still be looking to change to to 5-bolt...
I highly doubt I'll sell any of the parts, but I'll keep it in mind.
I had a 2009 set on my 2008 M3, and the wheels were amazing, zero issues even under hard tracking. The car's better road connection alone, is worth it for me. Add the fact that I wont have to worry about the CL tightening steps, carrying a torque bar, worry about changing a flat in the middle of nowhere without the right tools, not having to flatbed the car because of it, and lower unsprung weight: Priceless
If Dymag was still in business and made a CL wheel for the Mk2 GT3, I might still be looking to change to to 5-bolt...
I highly doubt I'll sell any of the parts, but I'll keep it in mind.
As for the unsprung weight and the car "connection" ideas, this might come into play if the car already has solid bushings, otherwise, the chassis and suspension compliance negates any prospect of the wheel weight being a discernible factor (given the same mass of other unsprung weight or combined flywheel affect.)
09-27-2010, 09:33 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
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1. This is a bit too far-fetched to go by -- you have a 997 and you're carrying a spare wheel?
2. As for the unsprung weight and the car "connection" ideas, this might come into play if the car already has solid bushings, otherwise, the chassis and suspension compliance negates any prospect of the wheel weight being a discernible factor (given the same mass of other unsprung weight or combined flywheel affect.)
2. As for the unsprung weight and the car "connection" ideas, this might come into play if the car already has solid bushings, otherwise, the chassis and suspension compliance negates any prospect of the wheel weight being a discernible factor (given the same mass of other unsprung weight or combined flywheel affect.)
A. having to wait for the dealer order and receive the tire (couple of days) and overpay for the tire...you know dealers.
B. A specialized shop will have the same issue as A. above, but the tire is cheaper lol. I'd still have to wait a couple of days, to fix something that could be done the same day elsewhere...
C. Be like Mooty (have bulk quantities of tires and wheels in my garage, maybe some mounting and balancing equipment as well)
2. Its not an idea, its actually a fact.
I assume you have never driven a car with Dymag wheels... its the only way you will understand the difference those wheels alone make in the steering feel, cornering, acceleration, etc Vs even lightweight wheel version of OEMs, not even close. This is felt by just changing the wheels, and the M3 has a much softer suspension.
I say that based on actual experience of owning them. I want that feeling back, especially in a 475 HP(424whp SAE), near 3000 lbs car.
Even with similar weights, an aluminum lightweight wheel has a higher MOI (moment of inertia) than a carbon barrel wheel. Aluminum wheels carry most of the weight in the outer (in or by the barrel), Dymag wheels carry most of the weight in the centers. My 19x11 inch wide Dymag carbon barrel only weight 5.5 lbs, though it might actually be 4.4 lbs. I got to look it up in my old stuff.
How much does a 19x12 aluminum barrel weight? 10, 12 lbs? Im pretty sure they are not in the single digits...
Last edited by GT3; 09-27-2010 at 10:05 PM.
09-27-2010, 10:14 PM
#19
1. I have a problem with patience... I don't have any, so, if I get a flat, I want the first place that a find with a tire replacement to replace it(which is usually at a decent price). The problem is that most of these shops that have these tires in stock(Corsas/MSPC in Porsche spec), although high-end shops, don't always have the equipment to torque the wheel, knowledge, or wont do it because of liability issues. So I"m stuck with:
A. having to wait for the dealer order and receive the tire (couple of days) and overpay for the tire...you know dealers.
B. A specialized shop will have the same issue as A. above, but the tire is cheaper lol. I'd still have to wait a couple of days, to fix something that could be done the same day elsewhere...
C. Be like Mooty (have bulk quantities of tires and wheels in my garage, maybe some mounting and balancing equipment as well)
2. Its not an idea, its actually a fact.
I assume you have never driven a car with Dymag wheels... its the only way you will understand the difference those wheels alone make in the steering feel, cornering, acceleration, etc Vs even lightweight wheel version of OEMs, not even close. This is felt by just changing the wheels, and the M3 has a much softer suspension.
I say that based on actual experience of owning them. I want that feeling back, especially in a 475 HP(424whp SAE), near 3000 lbs car.
Even with similar weights, an aluminum lightweight wheel has a higher MOI (moment of inertia) than a carbon barrel wheel. Aluminum wheels carry most of the weight in the outer (in or by the barrel), Dymag wheels carry most of the weight in the centers. My 19x11 inch wide Dymag carbon barrel only weight 5.5 lbs.
How much does a 19x12 aluminum barrel weight? 10, 12 lbs? Im pretty sure they are not in the single digits...
A. having to wait for the dealer order and receive the tire (couple of days) and overpay for the tire...you know dealers.
B. A specialized shop will have the same issue as A. above, but the tire is cheaper lol. I'd still have to wait a couple of days, to fix something that could be done the same day elsewhere...
C. Be like Mooty (have bulk quantities of tires and wheels in my garage, maybe some mounting and balancing equipment as well)
2. Its not an idea, its actually a fact.
I assume you have never driven a car with Dymag wheels... its the only way you will understand the difference those wheels alone make in the steering feel, cornering, acceleration, etc Vs even lightweight wheel version of OEMs, not even close. This is felt by just changing the wheels, and the M3 has a much softer suspension.
I say that based on actual experience of owning them. I want that feeling back, especially in a 475 HP(424whp SAE), near 3000 lbs car.
Even with similar weights, an aluminum lightweight wheel has a higher MOI (moment of inertia) than a carbon barrel wheel. Aluminum wheels carry most of the weight in the outer (in or by the barrel), Dymag wheels carry most of the weight in the centers. My 19x11 inch wide Dymag carbon barrel only weight 5.5 lbs.
How much does a 19x12 aluminum barrel weight? 10, 12 lbs? Im pretty sure they are not in the single digits...
side note: I think it would be insanely cool if Porsche put a space saver spare wheel either in the frunk or a full size front and rear spare in the rear seat area in a sort of 4x4 carrier like an off-road Paris Dakar race 959. That would be hilarious.
The "flywheel" inertia of the wheel barrel is interesting, but unless the rest of the system has already had significant weight reduction, well, even then, for the driver to notice ... well, maybe. For what it's worth, I rode a Ducati with Dymags back to back with my Duc and the most noticeable change was the gyro on steering, otherwise, nothing in acceleration, braking or road holding. It's an old, old topic and the company is defunct. I doubt I can shed any new light -- they tried to bring exotic materials to market and it didn't deliver a compelling value proposition.Anyway, each to his own. Several hard core owners here are very happy with the mod to put exotic wheels on the car and I'd be tempted if the prices were within reach and the vendors were offering something directly competitive to the high end alloy items.
09-27-2010, 11:51 PM
#20
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Your tire replacement scenario doesn't pertain to the wheel hub or the earlier scenario of roadside replacement by carrying a spare. The socket for the wheel nut is provided with the car. Any shop with a 3/4 tool can remove and replace the nut sufficient to complete a journey. There's a Porsche breaker bar that's telescopic and fits in the front trunk. I'd never remove a wheel roadside on these cars (jacking the car up, carrying a full size rear once the spare is on ...) or expect to do anything except squirt latex in there and drive on it or have it flatbed transported while I continue in a rental or taxi.
Anyway, each to his own. Several hard core owners here are very happy with the mod to put exotic wheels on the car and I'd be tempted if the prices were within reach and the vendors were offering something directly competitive to the high end alloy items.
side note: I think it would be insanely cool if Porsche put a space saver spare wheel either in the frunk or a full size front and rear spare in the rear seat area in a sort of 4x4 carrier like an off-road Paris Dakar race 959. That would be hilarious.
The "flywheel" inertia of the wheel barrel is interesting, but unless the rest of the system has already had significant weight reduction, well, even then, for the driver to notice ... well, maybe. For what it's worth, I rode a Ducati with Dymags back to back with my Duc and the most noticeable change was the gyro on steering, otherwise, nothing in acceleration, braking or road holding. It's an old, old topic and the company is defunct. I doubt I can shed any new light -- they tried to bring exotic materials to market and it didn't deliver a compelling value proposition.Anyway, each to his own. Several hard core owners here are very happy with the mod to put exotic wheels on the car and I'd be tempted if the prices were within reach and the vendors were offering something directly competitive to the high end alloy items.
I never said anything about carrying a spare wheel/tire. Its the hassle associated with it, in post #18, 1. I guess Im spoiled. I need things done yesterday, not in 2-4 days...
No, any shop wont do it because of liability issues. Only specialized porsche shops or P-car dealers will do it, in my area and they don't carry tires in stock like the other places. Too much hassle. The tire places that have the tires in stock when I need them wont install because of liability issues, since they are not experienced with centerlocks, I believe.
It looks like it wont cost much to switch, and to spend $5k-$6K on aluminum wheels, I prefer the 2009 technically new GT3 Dymags I can get, for the same money. Having owned them in the past, and knowing first hand what they offer, its a no brainer.
Bike wheels are much more lighter than car wheels, so the difference will not be felt as much as in a car. Drive a car with them, if you can find one.
As far as the company being defunct, any business with high quality, high production cost, low volume sales(due to cost), selling near production cost or under it, (I guess due to the economy), will experience defunction eventually... That was the case with Dymag. All Pre-2009 issues were resolved in 2009, thanks to HRE, when they attempted to merge with them. Don't ask me how I know...
Back on topic: Still awaiting confirmation from Suncoast, that no additional part are needed. Will update when received.
Last edited by GT3; 09-28-2010 at 12:07 AM.
09-28-2010, 12:57 AM
#21
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Personally, I thought CL were a whole marketing gimmick and I still think they are, but they just added a whole new level of pain, in addition to check brake pads, LSD status, rotors, all while the car is on jack stands, a lift or on a floor jack, now we have to put a gigantic physical effort and follow a not so evident procedure to swap wheel.
I cannot imagine running an autocross with a 2010 GT3 where changing wheels once, twice or even three times is typical.
Even if wheels are cheaper in CL (and they are not), the hassle exceeds any marginal benefits (if any). I would without doubt switch to 5 lugs, and then sell my CL kit to any interested buyer on a race look that never changes wheels and tires.
I cannot imagine running an autocross with a 2010 GT3 where changing wheels once, twice or even three times is typical.
Even if wheels are cheaper in CL (and they are not), the hassle exceeds any marginal benefits (if any). I would without doubt switch to 5 lugs, and then sell my CL kit to any interested buyer on a race look that never changes wheels and tires.
09-28-2010, 11:38 AM
#24
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^ one reason might be aesthetics (my guess)
just like they dont use race car studs on wheels, too long and ugly, unfinished.
the cup car CL is not what you would call pretty for a street car. for track guys, we like it. but otherwise, it looks like you are missing a cap, trim etc.
u will still need a huge wrench!
just like they dont use race car studs on wheels, too long and ugly, unfinished.
the cup car CL is not what you would call pretty for a street car. for track guys, we like it. but otherwise, it looks like you are missing a cap, trim etc.
u will still need a huge wrench!
09-28-2010, 03:04 PM
#26
If a CL to 5 bolt conversion became available for an affordable price I would purchase/
09-28-2010, 03:07 PM
#27
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Personally, I thought CL were a whole marketing gimmick and I still think they are, but they just added a whole new level of pain, in addition to check brake pads, LSD status, rotors, all while the car is on jack stands, a lift or on a floor jack, now we have to put a gigantic physical effort and follow a not so evident procedure to swap wheel.
I cannot imagine running an autocross with a 2010 GT3 where changing wheels once, twice or even three times is typical.
Even if wheels are cheaper in CL (and they are not), the hassle exceeds any marginal benefits (if any). I would without doubt switch to 5 lugs, and then sell my CL kit to any interested buyer on a race look that never changes wheels and tires.
I cannot imagine running an autocross with a 2010 GT3 where changing wheels once, twice or even three times is typical.
Even if wheels are cheaper in CL (and they are not), the hassle exceeds any marginal benefits (if any). I would without doubt switch to 5 lugs, and then sell my CL kit to any interested buyer on a race look that never changes wheels and tires.
09-28-2010, 03:08 PM
#28
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I have to disagree, because when I bent my wheel I had a shop TRY and take off my Stock Centerlocks and they broke THREE 3/4" breaker bars! 2 of the bars were Snap On bars! Had to go to my friends shop and get his 1" bar.
If a CL to 5 bolt conversion became available for an affordable price I would purchase/
If a CL to 5 bolt conversion became available for an affordable price I would purchase/
09-28-2010, 03:15 PM
#29
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I just broke them loose today after a track weekend, not a big deal.
Just have someone sit in the car 5 minutes per side to change out wheels.
If I would start fresh and there would be a +/- $1000.00 conversion I might do that, same price as all the specialty tools you need and more choice of wheels and maybe peace of mind long term.
Now that I am invested with tools and 2 sets of track BBS I am OK with it.
Just have someone sit in the car 5 minutes per side to change out wheels.
If I would start fresh and there would be a +/- $1000.00 conversion I might do that, same price as all the specialty tools you need and more choice of wheels and maybe peace of mind long term.
Now that I am invested with tools and 2 sets of track BBS I am OK with it.
09-28-2010, 03:25 PM
#30
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Pure Porsche Marketing:
Its main feature is the central locking device, demonstrating the clear commitment to motor sports. The advantages compared with a conventional 5-hole screw connection are enhanced driving dynamics and performance thanks to lower rotating masses.
But what a PIA to Change
Its main feature is the central locking device, demonstrating the clear commitment to motor sports. The advantages compared with a conventional 5-hole screw connection are enhanced driving dynamics and performance thanks to lower rotating masses.
But what a PIA to Change