Ca GT3 auto insurance premiums ... sigh
09-22-2010, 03:23 PM
#46
Instructor
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Location: LA VERNE, CALIFORNIA
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when i first insured my 10 gt3 here in ca. in july of '09, the policy came to me showing 'GT2". when i told my agent that it is not a gt2 but a gt3, their research showed that the ca dmv system noted the vin as a gt2. i had to fax a copy of the purchase contract showing it to be a gt3 and got a refund and policy change to gt3. maybe this is one of your problems.
alan
alan
09-22-2010, 03:39 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
when i first insured my 10 gt3 here in ca. in july of '09, the policy came to me showing 'GT2". when i told my agent that it is not a gt2 but a gt3, their research showed that the ca dmv system noted the vin as a gt2. i had to fax a copy of the purchase contract showing it to be a gt3 and got a refund and policy change to gt3. maybe this is one of your problems.
alan
alan
09-22-2010, 04:15 PM
#48
Racer
Alan...I have seen you on Baseline a few times on your way up Esperanza....Nice 2010 in guards.
I usually don't do this, but I call BS on your Agent. I see this all the time and Agents can sometimes be pretty creative with their explanations. Yes, that's code for cover their asses.
The reason I say your Agent was not honest with you is simply this, the DMV could care less what model your car is and, in fact, doesn't even put it on your registration in CA. Take a look...you'll see I'm right about this. The DMV only cares about the year, make, mileage and purchase price so they can charge you accordingly and enter the mileage for rollback documentation.
What I suspect is your Agent either didn't enter it right or doesn't really know how to insure it correctly. Or, as Larry said, underwriting got it wrong, too. However, your Agent submits the information and is suppose to be the eyes and ears of the underwriter. Either way, the Agent didn't so everything he could to make sure it was done right. On top of that, he wasn't honest in his explaination. You can actually verify that, too. Take your VIN # and put in the box on the CARFAX.com website or Carcheck.com website. When it comes back, you will see that it will identify your model. I just ran a client's 2010 GT3 and his 2009 C2S. They both ID's the car right way. On the 2009 C2S, it shows it could be an S/ or 4S.
Like I said, sometimes I am not proud of some of the people in my industry. They don't seem to know how to say "Let me make sure of this and get right back to you" or simply tell you, "Alan, I (or the carrier) made a mistake and I'll get it fixed right away." Then go do what they said they would do. They are sometimes afraid to admit they did something wrong or that they may be portrayed as incompetent. But I can only fix things one person at a time and offer to do the best I can for my clients. Not to brag, but that is why I have not advertised for years. The word of mouth regarding my service to my client's is very strong.
If you ever need help, just ask. I am always available for Rennlist members.
I usually don't do this, but I call BS on your Agent. I see this all the time and Agents can sometimes be pretty creative with their explanations. Yes, that's code for cover their asses.
The reason I say your Agent was not honest with you is simply this, the DMV could care less what model your car is and, in fact, doesn't even put it on your registration in CA. Take a look...you'll see I'm right about this. The DMV only cares about the year, make, mileage and purchase price so they can charge you accordingly and enter the mileage for rollback documentation.
What I suspect is your Agent either didn't enter it right or doesn't really know how to insure it correctly. Or, as Larry said, underwriting got it wrong, too. However, your Agent submits the information and is suppose to be the eyes and ears of the underwriter. Either way, the Agent didn't so everything he could to make sure it was done right. On top of that, he wasn't honest in his explaination. You can actually verify that, too. Take your VIN # and put in the box on the CARFAX.com website or Carcheck.com website. When it comes back, you will see that it will identify your model. I just ran a client's 2010 GT3 and his 2009 C2S. They both ID's the car right way. On the 2009 C2S, it shows it could be an S/ or 4S.
Like I said, sometimes I am not proud of some of the people in my industry. They don't seem to know how to say "Let me make sure of this and get right back to you" or simply tell you, "Alan, I (or the carrier) made a mistake and I'll get it fixed right away." Then go do what they said they would do. They are sometimes afraid to admit they did something wrong or that they may be portrayed as incompetent. But I can only fix things one person at a time and offer to do the best I can for my clients. Not to brag, but that is why I have not advertised for years. The word of mouth regarding my service to my client's is very strong.
If you ever need help, just ask. I am always available for Rennlist members.
10-04-2010, 02:09 PM
#49
Racer
Really.....?
That's all consistent with my understanding and experience of buying insurance products.
The finishing piece of the puzzle is to negotiate the rates, draw all risk into picture and assert your case, if you have one to assert. If not, then just bring all the money onto the table.
In other words, get your car policy together with your house/renter, quake, personal, umbrella etc. into the picture.
While some agents have at least browsed the word ethics in the dictionary, there's no distancing from the fact that their business is to sell a product working at the agent of the vendor, not the customer. Some agents may well be good advocates for their customer, but the profitability of the agents' business is in selling premiums at the highest possible price -- while retaining the customer and presenting a competitive offering and so on. It's appealing and it can be lucrative to retain customers, but it's not necessarily lucrative if those customers find the competitor in the market with the better product and the given agent is not able to sell that competitor's product.
I'm involved in an ongoing case where the insurer, 21st Century, exhibits no compunction in using the letter of the law to minimize their costs. It's not illegal, it's just unethical. One should never labor under the misapprehension that the insurance provider will do anything more than is required by the law -- an insured would be wrong to suppose that an insurance seller or agent has any capacity whatsoever to improve their situation when called upon to make a claim.
People attribute anthropomorphic qualities to companies (just look at the nature of insurance advertising ... warm, friendly people ... and Geckos ... used to portray an image of having "a good neighbor" ... utter lies ... marketing ...) These "human" qualities do not exist in companies -- profit is their goal and their responsibility to their investors and owners.
I might sound jaundiced or cynical, but it's nothing of the sort, it's just the business of an industry that's purely a racket with government backing. I'm quite pleased with AllState and I use AAA where AllState doesn't offer insurance products. And the AAA roadside "insurance" service is brilliant -- far better than Porsche or Mercedes. Money well spent.
But don't believe a word of "actuarial" tables -- these are simply statistics (of "lies and damn lies" infamy) carefully crafted and contorted to suit the biases and simple prejudices of insurers. If your house is in a wild fire zone, don't expect to get wild fire insurance. If your car is parked in a secure garage in or about a "bad" neighborhood, you're tarred with the same brush -- as chosen by the insurer, not scientifically tested and proven by an independent and objective analysis process, much less a fair and reasonable assessment of your particular case in terms of risk.
So I put insurance people right up there with lawyers as being amongst the most disgusting professions that have become necessary evils and symptomatic of failures in our society. So the saying goes, "nobody likes a lawyer until they need one." As with democracy; utterly the worst possible solution, except for all the alternatives.
To summarize: insurance is both money well spent and a bold-faced racket. Trust no-one, do your comparison shopping, prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
The finishing piece of the puzzle is to negotiate the rates, draw all risk into picture and assert your case, if you have one to assert. If not, then just bring all the money onto the table.
In other words, get your car policy together with your house/renter, quake, personal, umbrella etc. into the picture.
While some agents have at least browsed the word ethics in the dictionary, there's no distancing from the fact that their business is to sell a product working at the agent of the vendor, not the customer. Some agents may well be good advocates for their customer, but the profitability of the agents' business is in selling premiums at the highest possible price -- while retaining the customer and presenting a competitive offering and so on. It's appealing and it can be lucrative to retain customers, but it's not necessarily lucrative if those customers find the competitor in the market with the better product and the given agent is not able to sell that competitor's product.
I'm involved in an ongoing case where the insurer, 21st Century, exhibits no compunction in using the letter of the law to minimize their costs. It's not illegal, it's just unethical. One should never labor under the misapprehension that the insurance provider will do anything more than is required by the law -- an insured would be wrong to suppose that an insurance seller or agent has any capacity whatsoever to improve their situation when called upon to make a claim.
People attribute anthropomorphic qualities to companies (just look at the nature of insurance advertising ... warm, friendly people ... and Geckos ... used to portray an image of having "a good neighbor" ... utter lies ... marketing ...) These "human" qualities do not exist in companies -- profit is their goal and their responsibility to their investors and owners.
I might sound jaundiced or cynical, but it's nothing of the sort, it's just the business of an industry that's purely a racket with government backing. I'm quite pleased with AllState and I use AAA where AllState doesn't offer insurance products. And the AAA roadside "insurance" service is brilliant -- far better than Porsche or Mercedes. Money well spent.
But don't believe a word of "actuarial" tables -- these are simply statistics (of "lies and damn lies" infamy) carefully crafted and contorted to suit the biases and simple prejudices of insurers. If your house is in a wild fire zone, don't expect to get wild fire insurance. If your car is parked in a secure garage in or about a "bad" neighborhood, you're tarred with the same brush -- as chosen by the insurer, not scientifically tested and proven by an independent and objective analysis process, much less a fair and reasonable assessment of your particular case in terms of risk.
So I put insurance people right up there with lawyers as being amongst the most disgusting professions that have become necessary evils and symptomatic of failures in our society. So the saying goes, "nobody likes a lawyer until they need one." As with democracy; utterly the worst possible solution, except for all the alternatives.
To summarize: insurance is both money well spent and a bold-faced racket. Trust no-one, do your comparison shopping, prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
Most importantly, you say that "The finishing piece of the puzzle is to negotiate the rates..." I would say this to anyone that believes this statement. If you find someone who is willing to negotiate their rate on a personal lines policy (auto, home, personal umbrella), RUN! Rates (at least in CA) are submitted to the Dept. of Insurance for approval and publication by all admitted (allowed to do business in the State) carriers. Those rates are NOT negotiable. An Agent has an obligation to offer you the lowest rates available to him/her for that particular risk. If they are negotiating "the rate," by nature they have already violated an ethics code and that is unacceptable to me. If an agent will be unethical in your favor, that means they are willing to do the same in their favor, as well. Character is not defined by showing you what someone will do for you. Character is defined by what someone does when nobody is looking.
Then you note,” put all your policies together with one Company.” That is a good idea from a premium stand point, but it might not be the smartest move from a risk stand point. Nevertheless, it really is one of the best ways to lower you total insurance premiums and make sure you don't become "insurance poor."
I see that you are having an issue with a direct writer, 21st Century. I am truly sorry for that and would be willing to help you if you need anything. However, it is for this very reason that I don’t encourage using a direct writer. If your rate will be the same, why not get the added value of having someone act on your behalf? Why not have an Agent that knows what they are talking about? Why not have someone that you can call bounce a hypothetical question or two off of? (Wink, wink) When you call the Carrier direct, you get an employee that is paid by the Carrier so they will act accordingly. If you have an Agent, they can be more of a councilor than anything else. And I do have to disagree with you on an Agent’s ability to help you in a claims situation. I have helped countless clients in an hour of need with both advice and direction during the process. I have gone so far as to mediated for clients and argued on their behalf; and with some degree of success, I might add. So if you are not getting that kind of service, get an Agent if you don’t have one. If you already have an Agent that is not doing that for you, get a new &better one!
As for how they market themselves, I agree 100% with you. Insurance companies spend a fortune on advertising, just like Pepsi or Taco Bell or General Motors, etc. Insurance is a business and for profit, at that. It is the nature of competition and the Department of Insurance that keeps prices in check. But for you to say it’s a racket makes me think that the statement you make is more out of anger than meaningful thought. If you were to go down the road today and take out a 2007 GT3, I bet you would not be complaining about paying $800 for your coverage. Especially since your carrier is about to pay out $ 85,000+ on your behalf. On top of that, you could get into the same accident a week later and they would have to do it all over again. Would you still think it is a racket then? They must do all this on a day to day basis and still be able to handle, adjust and survive a major disaster involved in events like the 9/11 terrorist attacks, Hurricane Andrew, The Station fire in CA, etc.
Now, the issue of do they stick to the law is another debate all in itself. Insurance is a contact of adhesion and I will say this much, the companies I represent do stick to the contract; In most cases, the letter of the contract. They do so just as you would hold them to the letter of the contract if it was to your benefit. In either case, the contract is just that and, by nature, sometimes up for interpretation. I admit, I hate that part of this business. I, too, wish it was more cut and dry for all of us; or at least much more simplified.
And we haven’t even touched on the issue of fraud; or what we in the industry like to call “claims of opportunity.” Insurance Fraud in this country is unbelievable. To give you some idea, Hurricane Andrew was the nation’s second largest natural disaster cost the insurance industry $27M-$30M in one shot. The insurance industry deals with fraud that totals more than Hurricane Andrew did EVERY YEAR and still has to be prepared for events like Hurricane Katrina and the September 11 attacks while still being able to stay open for business to handle the day to day losses that take place. Most all of the insurance companies out there are still open and survived all the claims made, which says something about the industry. Yes, they make profits, but yes, they pay out some serious dollars, too. The only way they can do that is to have the reserves to handle these things and be prepared for what may happen at any given time.
At the end of the day, it comes down to two things: 1) A for profit business that potentially pays out big dollars for you when you need it and 2) The public’s perception of how that business works, what it’s there for and what’s it’s place is in their lives. If the business was not so complicated and there wasn’t so much money at stake, they would not be so disliked. If the public would use the product for exactly what it’s for, not commit fraud or “claims of opportunity” and stop thinking as insurance as a savings plan, they would be able to utilize a very useful vehicle in their money management tool bag. Now if all this you still don’t see it for what it is and think there is a place for it in your life, go without it. Don’t buy life insurance and let your family financially fend for themselves when you pass. Don’t buy Homeowners insurance and risk that nothing will happen to your $X00,000 investment. Don’t buy car insurance and just post a bond with the State. If you get in a wreck, you pay for it and deal with the cost of adjusting that claim. Don’t buy health insurance and you bare the cost of just one visit to a hospital for a seemingly “simple” procedure.
Now once you consider all this, the payouts they make for you on a yearly basis and what will you do when you really have a problem that needs to be answered financially, you tell me if you can survive all that. And if you say yes, can you survive all of that if it happens in one 6 month period or year? And even if you can say yes to that, what if it happens again 6 months to a year later? Could you rebound and/or recover from that again? If so, how long would that take you?
Just my .02
10-05-2010, 04:51 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
just have to go on record that Fooshe went the extra RL mile for me; I transferred my policy to him and he has resolved the problems thru his connections with my insurance co; as any good agent/broker should do, but thanks to his kindness my problems are resolved.
+1 to anyone in Ca that needs to renew their auto policy, they should consider giving a fellow RLer their business
Thanks Fooshe!
+1 to anyone in Ca that needs to renew their auto policy, they should consider giving a fellow RLer their business
Thanks Fooshe!
10-05-2010, 05:04 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
just have to go on record that Fooshe went the extra RL mile for me; I transferred my policy to him and he has resolved the problems thru his connections with my insurance co; as any good agent/broker should do, but thanks to his kindness my problems are resolved.
+1 to anyone in Ca that needs to renew their auto policy, they should consider giving a fellow RLer their business
Thanks Fooshe!
+1 to anyone in Ca that needs to renew their auto policy, they should consider giving a fellow RLer their business
Thanks Fooshe!
10-05-2010, 05:47 PM
#52
Racer
Larry, you humble me. That was nice of you to post that, but as I emailed you, I'm just glad that I could get it done for you.
Something I should add is that because of this thread, I have been contacted by a few people in CA and I have been fortunate enough to fix all of their policies. I hope this helps show that there still some people who still believe in service and doing the right thing for their clients and friends.
So I will throw this out again, any RL member that needs help with any insurance issues or has questions is welcome to ask me for input of advice; no charge, no obligation. Do you have to switch to me, not at all...that is always your option, but not a requirement for help or input. If you like what you hear and think I earned your business, than we can switch you over.
Something I should add is that because of this thread, I have been contacted by a few people in CA and I have been fortunate enough to fix all of their policies. I hope this helps show that there still some people who still believe in service and doing the right thing for their clients and friends.
So I will throw this out again, any RL member that needs help with any insurance issues or has questions is welcome to ask me for input of advice; no charge, no obligation. Do you have to switch to me, not at all...that is always your option, but not a requirement for help or input. If you like what you hear and think I earned your business, than we can switch you over.
10-05-2010, 06:08 PM
#53
Three Wheelin'
I have known Fooshe for many years and have been around him for many many track days. He is a good guy and would even help you load the trailer just for fun.
See you soon,
Joe
See you soon,
Joe
10-05-2010, 07:04 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Larry, you humble me. That was nice of you to post that, but as I emailed you, I'm just glad that I could get it done for you.
Something I should add is that because of this thread, I have been contacted by a few people in CA and I have been fortunate enough to fix all of their policies. I hope this helps show that there still some people who still believe in service and doing the right thing for their clients and friends.
So I will throw this out again, any RL member that needs help with any insurance issues or has questions is welcome to ask me for input of advice; no charge, no obligation. Do you have to switch to me, not at all...that is always your option, but not a requirement for help or input. If you like what you hear and think I earned your business, than we can switch you over.
Something I should add is that because of this thread, I have been contacted by a few people in CA and I have been fortunate enough to fix all of their policies. I hope this helps show that there still some people who still believe in service and doing the right thing for their clients and friends.
So I will throw this out again, any RL member that needs help with any insurance issues or has questions is welcome to ask me for input of advice; no charge, no obligation. Do you have to switch to me, not at all...that is always your option, but not a requirement for help or input. If you like what you hear and think I earned your business, than we can switch you over.
so you more than earned my business!
now ... about loading trailers ...
10-06-2010, 09:10 AM
#55
Race Car
just to second a few things in this thread...
Agents cannot negotiate rates to sell you a product. Trust me, I write insurance rating code. The only way they can manipulate the rate is to give you discounts that you may or may not deserve, but if they're giving you all the discounts you qualify for up front in trying to sell you the business there's no other way for them to mainuplate the rate further. Base rates for every company and an explination of how they calculate have to be approved and filed with the state and are public knowledge if you really dig hard enough. That's how some companies can compare their rates to those of other companies when trying to sell. They're not making up the other companies rates, they went out and got them and duplicated their rating process
On the VIN not coming back as the right model, all the major carriers use an outside vendor to confirm VIN's and return rate symbols for vehicles. In our case we even double check VIN's when they hit our mainframe. We do allow agents to bypass the system if they don't have a complete VIN when quoting but don't allow them to bind business without VIN confirmation.
Andy
Agents cannot negotiate rates to sell you a product. Trust me, I write insurance rating code. The only way they can manipulate the rate is to give you discounts that you may or may not deserve, but if they're giving you all the discounts you qualify for up front in trying to sell you the business there's no other way for them to mainuplate the rate further. Base rates for every company and an explination of how they calculate have to be approved and filed with the state and are public knowledge if you really dig hard enough. That's how some companies can compare their rates to those of other companies when trying to sell. They're not making up the other companies rates, they went out and got them and duplicated their rating process
On the VIN not coming back as the right model, all the major carriers use an outside vendor to confirm VIN's and return rate symbols for vehicles. In our case we even double check VIN's when they hit our mainframe. We do allow agents to bypass the system if they don't have a complete VIN when quoting but don't allow them to bind business without VIN confirmation.
Andy
10-06-2010, 11:29 AM
#56
Racer
just to second a few things in this thread...
Agents cannot negotiate rates to sell you a product. Trust me, I write insurance rating code. The only way they can manipulate the rate is to give you discounts that you may or may not deserve, but if they're giving you all the discounts you qualify for up front in trying to sell you the business there's no other way for them to mainuplate the rate further. Base rates for every company and an explination of how they calculate have to be approved and filed with the state and are public knowledge if you really dig hard enough. That's how some companies can compare their rates to those of other companies when trying to sell. They're not making up the other companies rates, they went out and got them and duplicated their rating process
On the VIN not coming back as the right model, all the major carriers use an outside vendor to confirm VIN's and return rate symbols for vehicles. In our case we even double check VIN's when they hit our mainframe. We do allow agents to bypass the system if they don't have a complete VIN when quoting but don't allow them to bind business without VIN confirmation.
Andy
Agents cannot negotiate rates to sell you a product. Trust me, I write insurance rating code. The only way they can manipulate the rate is to give you discounts that you may or may not deserve, but if they're giving you all the discounts you qualify for up front in trying to sell you the business there's no other way for them to mainuplate the rate further. Base rates for every company and an explination of how they calculate have to be approved and filed with the state and are public knowledge if you really dig hard enough. That's how some companies can compare their rates to those of other companies when trying to sell. They're not making up the other companies rates, they went out and got them and duplicated their rating process
On the VIN not coming back as the right model, all the major carriers use an outside vendor to confirm VIN's and return rate symbols for vehicles. In our case we even double check VIN's when they hit our mainframe. We do allow agents to bypass the system if they don't have a complete VIN when quoting but don't allow them to bind business without VIN confirmation.
Andy
To what Andy wrote, I still think you have to consider something. If the an Agent negotiates rates, at least in California anyway, they have commited an ethics violation. The Agent is obligated to offer you the lowest rate possible and advise you on any difference in coverage that rate may bring with it.
Like any profession, there are good ones and bad ones. I always tell people that they have choices and their consumer dollar is their voice. However, if you find a good one, stick with that agent and trust what they are telling you. A good agent's advice is usually always free and can save you money, but may just save your bacon one day. If that is the case, you have to ask yourself one question, what that one piece of advice or help worth it? If you can honestly say no, it's time to get a new agent.
Last edited by Fooshe; 10-06-2010 at 05:10 PM.
10-06-2010, 04:59 PM
#57
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA
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Hi Fooshe,
Good information. Are you an agent of any particular insurance company? Or a broker that can connect folks to different insurance companies?
Regards,
Good information. Are you an agent of any particular insurance company? Or a broker that can connect folks to different insurance companies?
Regards,
10-06-2010, 05:27 PM
#58
Racer
I am an independent Agent and Broker, as opposed to a captive Agent.
So what's the difference you ask....good question. The difference between and independent and a captive Agent is that the independent Agent can write for any carrier they are appointed with, whereas a captive Agent must put business with the carrier they are aligning themselves with.
For example....If I get a client that has special needs, I know has a particular type of usage (Like PCA track days) or has a collectible or exotic car that they only drive every now and then, I can pick and choose who I write it with to fit their needs while shopping the premium, too. A captive agent (Farmers, Allstate, State Farm, etc.) is sort of like an employee of that company and must offer and write that business with their carrier. Now they can use secondary carriers, but only in certain and specific circumstances. So a Farmers agent can't write insurance with Allstate for you, and vice-versa.
They are kind of like direct writers (AAA, Geico, USAA, etc.) but they technically have their own business. Now direct writers use an in-house agent and you are talking directly with an employee of the company. That can have some very bad outcomes and there is no such thing as an "off the record" conversation or question. EVERYTHING goes in your client file...EVERYTHING. Remember, the representative works for the Company. I, on the other hand, own my own book of business and work for the client. So it’s in my best interest to keep the client happy. Whereas an employee of the carrier may be more likely to worry more about job security than compliance with Company rules than put the needs and interest of the client first. I am not saying they will, but it has been known to happen.
I guess the short answer is I can shop carriers and find either the policy with the best provisions or the best premium or a balance of both. It all depends on what is most important to the client.
