oil viscosity and type
08-15-2010, 02:31 AM
#16
Nordschleife Master
Higher sulphur content bad. Combines with water to make acid. Also, as engine consumes oil the sulphur can work to help shorten the life of the sensors and converters.
Back in 2002 when I was looking into diesel powered vehicles there was some mistaken belief that sulphur in diesel fuel was good cause there was some problems with diesel fuel pumps when using low sulphur diesel fuel. (These pumps are extremely sophisticated and expensive cause they must generate very high pressures (>15000psi and more) and help deliver very precise shots of fuel every power stroke of the engine's cylinders.)
People blamed the absence of sulfphur when the real problem was the process by which the sulphur was removed at the refinery. It had a side effect of affecting the lubricity of the diesel fuel. A change in this process restored the lubricity of the fuel.
Sulphur in fuel or oil is not a desirable element.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Back in 2002 when I was looking into diesel powered vehicles there was some mistaken belief that sulphur in diesel fuel was good cause there was some problems with diesel fuel pumps when using low sulphur diesel fuel. (These pumps are extremely sophisticated and expensive cause they must generate very high pressures (>15000psi and more) and help deliver very precise shots of fuel every power stroke of the engine's cylinders.)
People blamed the absence of sulfphur when the real problem was the process by which the sulphur was removed at the refinery. It had a side effect of affecting the lubricity of the diesel fuel. A change in this process restored the lubricity of the fuel.
Sulphur in fuel or oil is not a desirable element.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Some say (oil cos) that phosphorous should also be low to avoid contamination of cats. But it's needed for metallurgical reasons.
This is an important Mobil 1 DATA TABLE.
The 0W40 has a 1000 PPM Phosphorous level and the 5W40 1100.
Another article claiming that Royal Purple is far superior - LINK HERE.
Last edited by ADias; 08-15-2010 at 02:50 AM.
08-15-2010, 08:37 AM
#17
Drifting
Thread Starter
I wanted the last vote... 
In your original post above you theorized that 0W-40 was for "convertors and better mpg". The 0W oil viscosity rating has nothing to do with "convertors and mpg". 0W means the oil flows easier at cold temps - which is good as the oil gets to the extremities of the engine sooner than with a thicker oil to reduce cold start-up engine wear. See the viscosity info. at the link below.
As the viscosity info. explains a 0W-40 weight oil has the SAME hot viscosity at 212 F as a 5W-40 oil or any other "40" weight oil. The cold viscosity is the difference in the oils not the hot viscosity. All modern oils must hold viscosity during the prescribed OCI so it does not matter if you use a 0W-40 or 5W-40 Porsche approved oil for the temp range you operate your engine in.
http://www.ideas4ag-ed.com/uploads/3..._viscosity.pdf
As far as which oil is "the best" or "better" it's virtually impossible to determine without actual objective oil sequence testing of the specific engine and oils in question. That's what Porsche and other car makers do before approving an oil for use. That is why I stated that any of the approved Porsche oils of the correct viscosity for the application will work just fine. No one could possibly determine if one oil is "better" than another for the application without the extensive oil test sequence that the car makers use. It would be pure speculation to claim the performance of one oil is better than another without actual objective oil sequence testing. See the ACEA A3/B4 oil test sequence as an example. The A3/B4 sequence is the basis that most Euro car makers use to develop their engine family specific oil spec requirements.
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/pu..._LD_and_HD.pdf
In addition you'd also need to quantify "best" to even compare oil performance data if you had it. Unfortunately this info. just is not available to the public.
BTW, your Porsche was meant to be driven, so enjoy it.
In your original post above you theorized that 0W-40 was for "convertors and better mpg". The 0W oil viscosity rating has nothing to do with "convertors and mpg". 0W means the oil flows easier at cold temps - which is good as the oil gets to the extremities of the engine sooner than with a thicker oil to reduce cold start-up engine wear. See the viscosity info. at the link below.
As the viscosity info. explains a 0W-40 weight oil has the SAME hot viscosity at 212 F as a 5W-40 oil or any other "40" weight oil. The cold viscosity is the difference in the oils not the hot viscosity. All modern oils must hold viscosity during the prescribed OCI so it does not matter if you use a 0W-40 or 5W-40 Porsche approved oil for the temp range you operate your engine in.
http://www.ideas4ag-ed.com/uploads/3..._viscosity.pdf
As far as which oil is "the best" or "better" it's virtually impossible to determine without actual objective oil sequence testing of the specific engine and oils in question. That's what Porsche and other car makers do before approving an oil for use. That is why I stated that any of the approved Porsche oils of the correct viscosity for the application will work just fine. No one could possibly determine if one oil is "better" than another for the application without the extensive oil test sequence that the car makers use. It would be pure speculation to claim the performance of one oil is better than another without actual objective oil sequence testing. See the ACEA A3/B4 oil test sequence as an example. The A3/B4 sequence is the basis that most Euro car makers use to develop their engine family specific oil spec requirements.
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/pu..._LD_and_HD.pdf
In addition you'd also need to quantify "best" to even compare oil performance data if you had it. Unfortunately this info. just is not available to the public.
BTW, your Porsche was meant to be driven, so enjoy it.
BTW, what does this info have to do with me enjoying my Porsche. Thanks for the info though.
Last edited by 911dev; 08-15-2010 at 08:56 AM.
08-15-2010, 08:49 AM
#18
Drifting
Thread Starter
www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
This was the reason for some of my concerns.
LNE doesn't seem too fond of some Mobil One products. I am not jumping ship because of one artilce, hence my initial post and questions.
FTR, thanks to all for their input. I welcome all data possible.
This was the reason for some of my concerns.
LNE doesn't seem too fond of some Mobil One products. I am not jumping ship because of one artilce, hence my initial post and questions.
FTR, thanks to all for their input. I welcome all data possible.
Last edited by 911dev; 08-15-2010 at 10:52 AM.
08-15-2010, 09:13 AM
#19
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911 Dev:
Phosphorus (a component of ZDDP - Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate) is the key component for valve train protection in an engine and 1600ppm (parts per million) used to be the standard for phosphorus in engine oil. In 1996 the EPA forced that to be dropped to 800ppm and then more recently to 400ppm - a quarter of the original spec. Valvetrains and their components are not cheap to replace and this drop in phosphorus content has been a problem for many engines. So why was it dropped? Money. Next to lead, it's the second most destructive substance to pass through a catalytic converter. The US government mandated a 150,000 mile liftime on catalytic converters and the quickest way to do that was to drop phosphorous levels and bugger the valvetrain problem.
In the US, Mobil 1 originally came out with the 0W40 as a 'European Formula' as it was always above 1000 ppm. This initially got them out of the 1996 800ppm jam and knowledgeable consumers sought it out for obvious reasons. Their 15W50 has also maintained a very high level of phosphorus and all of the extended life Mobil synthetics now have at least 1000ppm. How do they get away with this? They're not classified as energy/fuel conserving oils and thus do not interfere with the precious government CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) ratings. This also means that they don't get the coveted ratings of other oils but they do protect your valvetrain. The same rule of thumb is true for racing oils like Royal Purple - because they're not classified as energy / fuel conserving, and still contain good quantities of ZDDP.
© Christopher J Longhurst
John
Phosphorus (a component of ZDDP - Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate) is the key component for valve train protection in an engine and 1600ppm (parts per million) used to be the standard for phosphorus in engine oil. In 1996 the EPA forced that to be dropped to 800ppm and then more recently to 400ppm - a quarter of the original spec. Valvetrains and their components are not cheap to replace and this drop in phosphorus content has been a problem for many engines. So why was it dropped? Money. Next to lead, it's the second most destructive substance to pass through a catalytic converter. The US government mandated a 150,000 mile liftime on catalytic converters and the quickest way to do that was to drop phosphorous levels and bugger the valvetrain problem.
In the US, Mobil 1 originally came out with the 0W40 as a 'European Formula' as it was always above 1000 ppm. This initially got them out of the 1996 800ppm jam and knowledgeable consumers sought it out for obvious reasons. Their 15W50 has also maintained a very high level of phosphorus and all of the extended life Mobil synthetics now have at least 1000ppm. How do they get away with this? They're not classified as energy/fuel conserving oils and thus do not interfere with the precious government CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) ratings. This also means that they don't get the coveted ratings of other oils but they do protect your valvetrain. The same rule of thumb is true for racing oils like Royal Purple - because they're not classified as energy / fuel conserving, and still contain good quantities of ZDDP.
© Christopher J Longhurst
John
08-15-2010, 11:23 AM
#21
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I wanted the last vote...
In your original post above you theorized that 0W-40 was for "convertors and better mpg". The 0W oil viscosity rating has nothing to do with "convertors and mpg". 0W means the oil flows easier at cold temps - which is good as the oil gets to the extremities of the engine sooner than with a thicker oil to reduce cold start-up engine wear. See the viscosity info. at the link below.
As the viscosity info. explains a 0W-40 weight oil has the SAME hot viscosity at 212 F as a 5W-40 oil or any other "40" weight oil. The cold viscosity is the difference in the oils not the hot viscosity. All modern oils must hold viscosity during the prescribed OCI so it does not matter if you use a 0W-40 or 5W-40 Porsche approved oil for the temp range you operate your engine in.
http://www.ideas4ag-ed.com/uploads/3..._viscosity.pdf
As far as which oil is "the best" or "better" it's virtually impossible to determine without actual objective oil sequence testing of the specific engine and oils in question. That's what Porsche and other car makers do before approving an oil for use. That is why I stated that any of the approved Porsche oils of the correct viscosity for the application will work just fine. No one could possibly determine if one oil is "better" than another for the application without the extensive oil test sequence that the car makers use. It would be pure speculation to claim the performance of one oil is better than another without actual objective oil sequence testing. See the ACEA A3/B4 oil test sequence as an example. The A3/B4 sequence is the basis that most Euro car makers use to develop their engine family specific oil spec requirements.
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/pu..._LD_and_HD.pdf
In addition you'd also need to quantify "best" to even compare oil performance data if you had it. Unfortunately this info. just is not available to the public.
BTW, your Porsche was meant to be driven, so enjoy it.
In your original post above you theorized that 0W-40 was for "convertors and better mpg". The 0W oil viscosity rating has nothing to do with "convertors and mpg". 0W means the oil flows easier at cold temps - which is good as the oil gets to the extremities of the engine sooner than with a thicker oil to reduce cold start-up engine wear. See the viscosity info. at the link below.
As the viscosity info. explains a 0W-40 weight oil has the SAME hot viscosity at 212 F as a 5W-40 oil or any other "40" weight oil. The cold viscosity is the difference in the oils not the hot viscosity. All modern oils must hold viscosity during the prescribed OCI so it does not matter if you use a 0W-40 or 5W-40 Porsche approved oil for the temp range you operate your engine in.
http://www.ideas4ag-ed.com/uploads/3..._viscosity.pdf
As far as which oil is "the best" or "better" it's virtually impossible to determine without actual objective oil sequence testing of the specific engine and oils in question. That's what Porsche and other car makers do before approving an oil for use. That is why I stated that any of the approved Porsche oils of the correct viscosity for the application will work just fine. No one could possibly determine if one oil is "better" than another for the application without the extensive oil test sequence that the car makers use. It would be pure speculation to claim the performance of one oil is better than another without actual objective oil sequence testing. See the ACEA A3/B4 oil test sequence as an example. The A3/B4 sequence is the basis that most Euro car makers use to develop their engine family specific oil spec requirements.
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/pu..._LD_and_HD.pdf
In addition you'd also need to quantify "best" to even compare oil performance data if you had it. Unfortunately this info. just is not available to the public.
BTW, your Porsche was meant to be driven, so enjoy it.
It is generally considered that an 0w-40 oil will break down sooner than a 5w-40 oil because there are more modifiers and chemicals used to make up the larger spread between the cold and warm number. For my money this is the key number: what is the oil's viscosity after 5000 miles vs. it's brand new number.
To summarize, you can be pretty sure a 5w-40 oil will hold it's viscosity longer than a 0w-40 will, thus being the better oil.
BTW, I didn't know Mobil One was available as a 5w-40 here in the US.
08-15-2010, 11:47 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
fwiw, a link to a Mobil1 chart that shows phosporus content etc of all their products...
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf
08-15-2010, 02:00 PM
#23
Race Director
I wonder why Mobil 1 5w50 is shown on the approved list but Castrol Syntech 5w50 is not on the list...but...Castrol Syntec 5w40 is on the Porsche approved list?
08-15-2010, 04:51 PM
#25
Drifting
Thread Starter
One other aspect to consider is what is actually the viscosity at operating temp of the multi viscosity oil and how long will it maintain that viscosity.
It is generally considered that an 0w-40 oil will break down sooner than a 5w-40 oil because there are more modifiers and chemicals used to make up the larger spread between the cold and warm number. For my money this is the key number: what is the oil's viscosity after 5000 miles vs. it's brand new number.
To summarize, you can be pretty sure a 5w-40 oil will hold it's viscosity longer than a 0w-40 will, thus being the better oil.
BTW, I didn't know Mobil One was available as a 5w-40 here in the US.
It is generally considered that an 0w-40 oil will break down sooner than a 5w-40 oil because there are more modifiers and chemicals used to make up the larger spread between the cold and warm number. For my money this is the key number: what is the oil's viscosity after 5000 miles vs. it's brand new number.
To summarize, you can be pretty sure a 5w-40 oil will hold it's viscosity longer than a 0w-40 will, thus being the better oil.
BTW, I didn't know Mobil One was available as a 5w-40 here in the US.
08-15-2010, 05:16 PM
#27
Drifting
Thread Starter
I read where oils must be approved again every three years or so or if there are changes to the blend of course.
Would you know if Porsche Approval List 2002 and Porsche A40 are the same? The former was on older -two-three years or so- containers of 0w-40 and the latter on the lastest stuff I bought. All other classifications appear to be the same.
Would you know if Porsche Approval List 2002 and Porsche A40 are the same? The former was on older -two-three years or so- containers of 0w-40 and the latter on the lastest stuff I bought. All other classifications appear to be the same.
Last edited by 911dev; 08-15-2010 at 05:37 PM.
08-15-2010, 05:49 PM
#28
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Every year or so I have 2009 2008 2007 etc etc Porsche gives a Technical Service Bulletin which lists the approved oils this is the approval list and also issues again almost annually a Porsche's certificate tsb, the A40 is the oil specification code which covers all models after 1984 but the cayenne v6, for the v6 the code is C30.
Dont worry about these things so much. A good oil is good regardless if Porsche approved it or not.
John
Dont worry about these things so much. A good oil is good regardless if Porsche approved it or not.
John
08-15-2010, 06:06 PM
#29
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One other aspect to consider is what is actually the viscosity at operating temp of the multi viscosity oil and how long will it maintain that viscosity.
It is generally considered that an 0w-40 oil will break down sooner than a 5w-40 oil because there are more modifiers and chemicals used to make up the larger spread between the cold and warm number. For my money this is the key number: what is the oil's viscosity after 5000 miles vs. it's brand new number.
To summarize, you can be pretty sure a 5w-40 oil will hold it's viscosity longer than a 0w-40 will, thus being the better oil.
BTW, I didn't know Mobil One was available as a 5w-40 here in the US.
It is generally considered that an 0w-40 oil will break down sooner than a 5w-40 oil because there are more modifiers and chemicals used to make up the larger spread between the cold and warm number. For my money this is the key number: what is the oil's viscosity after 5000 miles vs. it's brand new number.
To summarize, you can be pretty sure a 5w-40 oil will hold it's viscosity longer than a 0w-40 will, thus being the better oil.
BTW, I didn't know Mobil One was available as a 5w-40 here in the US.
Actually you can't be sure of a 5W-40 oil holding it's viscosity longer than a 0W-40 oil without actual testing. This is purely speculation and why I emphasiszed no one can state if one of the Porsche approved oils is "better" without actual oil sequence testing appropriate for the application/engine family. We won't even discuss un-approved oils as they can be anything poured in a bottle.
Also noted above, Euro auto maker oil specs REQUIRE an oil to stay in grade for the prescribed OCI as do ACEA A3/B4 specs and most modern auto oil specs. Car makers actually test the oils to confirm they stay in grade for the application. That is precisely how they determine what oils are approved for a given application.
Last edited by beentherebaby; 08-15-2010 at 06:34 PM.
08-15-2010, 06:10 PM
#30
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Lack of approval is typically because the Castrol Syntech 5W-50 may not have the proper chemistry and doesn't pass Porsche's oil specs for the application. It's not just oil viscosity that is important it's also the oil chemistry that is a requirement, which is determined by actual engine testing resulting in the car maker's engine oil spec.
Last edited by beentherebaby; 08-15-2010 at 06:35 PM.