PNUT

i suppose the extra 60lbs could be lost in the gym.

i hear rumors that the next cups will have paddle shifters, anyone else hear this?

also, i know two nissan (datsun) gtr's were entered in the world challenge race at long beach this year and had to drop out due to tranny troubles, the computer put both cars in "limp home" mode because they couldn't handle the stress.

for now, give me the 6-speed.

mooty

btw, i meant to state sequential/pdk is the future, doesn't meant the next gen car will get it or it will work perfectly, but it will be here.

911SLOW

Now I was reading the 997 forum about a guy who found a damaged 997.1 and wants to give her a facelift to 997.2. How you guys feel about the whole facelift thing. Does it bother you that almost the same car comes out with new looks..?

micahbones

re: PDK/DSG/DCT/insert lame dual-clutch acronym here

While it may be the future, they are still "automatic" transmissions, and still do not offer the driving engagement of a three-pedal manual with a proper gearbox. Of course quicker shifter matters in a wheel-to-wheel race, but how many of us go wheel-to-wheel racing? In HPDE track sessions do lap times between cars really matter that much, or is the primary enjoyment really a result of the engagement of our senses while driving our cars at speed and challenging ourselves? In an individual car with the same driver, lap times can be important measures of our relative improvement across sessions, but there is always going to be someone who shows up with the next quicker AWD, turbo, dual-clutch, active suspension, electronically controlled playstation supercar.

In fact one of the reasons I think many of us love the current GT3 is its largely analog feel, with the real manual a significant part of that feel. Sure, it's technically awesome when a dual-clutch rev-matches perfectly on every downshift, but does it not feel so much better when you execute well a rev-matched downshift on your own, and is not the challenge of doing so part of the fun?

For me it's about driver involvement and engagement, and thus why I will very much regret the day a proper manual transmission is not available on our automobiles.

mooty

^ i agree to some extent.... but...
if you really want ENJOYMENT and be as one with the car, why not get a car without syncromesh and double clutch everything, forget pwr str or brakes.

we resist pdk whatever it's called b/c it's NEW. but we will all move over.

your know MB1 and RB1 ride great, so is short wheelbase ritchey or newsboy, but who in the right mind ride those any more? we hang those on the wall and reminisce yesteryear.... in 10 years, we will all be driving 2 pedal autobox.

another analogy. you know those things called abacus. i am not kidding, i was trained in that art and in elementary school, at least additions, i have never seen out calc'd by any calculator. but today, i run everything through excel or hp11c or 17b, including things like 1+1, i no longer trust myself.

micahbones

Point taken, esp. re: double clutching, but a Lotus Exige/Elise still steers well and with feel. Also, sometime at the track I wish ABS could be turned off...

In regards to technological innovation, I believe in early adoption of a technology if it really moves the game on...an iPhone for example (although some might argue that for its primary purpose of making calls it kinda sucks).

In the case of manual vs. dual-clutch, I will resist until there is no other option. Every single one I have driven feels like a damn automatic to me, and I must admit I hate it. Dual-clutch does move the game on in terms of shift speed & marginally for fuel economy, but it also adds a significant amount of weight and complexity.

For bikes, when I raced light weight was great, except of course when we were given prototype lightweight parts that I broke because of my size relative to other emaciated bike racers on the team. Now I ride a steel Soulcraft (frame, fork, stem) for a road bike without a single piece of carbon fiber on it. Favorite MTB ever is a Moots, where you can see the metal beautifully welded by a craftsperson. Do not like the aesthetics of glued together CF, and for me carbon frames also feel dead compared to steel or titanium. Also, how much faster are you really gunna climb up to Saratoga Gap on a bike that weighs a couple pounds less?

Just playing devil's advocate to some extent Mooty... : )

Tedster

I guess it depends on why you got the car. If it is to be the fastest around a track then there will always be somebody with the latest performance nanny that can push the limit further. I bought my GT3 because I wanted a car that would be rewarding to drive well. I bet most of us can play a guitar solo on a wii but try it on a real Stratocaster some time! Which one is easier, which one is more rewarding? Which one is more fulfilling?


“If you ever reach total enlightenment while drinking beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose”
Jack Handy

Targa Tim

Good analogy, glad you mentioned calculator.

Kids these days don't know how to use their brain to do simple calculations. They are over-relying on modern technology. If their computers are down, they became useless.

To some extent, modern technology are making their lives easier and work more efficiently, but it also makes them more stupid as they lose some basic skills such as calculations.

Same as with driving, most of our kids and grandkids will not know how to drive a manual car. Yes, they will be faster, but they don't know and will never experience what real driving is all about.

BTW 6 speed manual for me any day until I'm too old to shift.

axhoaxho

+ 1.

It reminds me just not long ago we were all laughing about the Prius owners didn't know about putting the gear in Neutral when their gas pedals were stuck.

With PDK, I wonder how many years it will take until the same happens to our future young Porsche owners?

I am old enough to remember that many decades ago when the (torque converter) automatic transmissions flooded the market, folks were counting down the days of the manual transmission. Decades later, the manual transmission is still here to stay.

Nowadays the PDK might be the hot potato on the dinner table (just like the Ferrari F1 transmission not too long ago), yet some years later some new type of transmission will be born, and it will take over the hot potato space (just like the Ferrari F1 transmission is now yesterday's news.) Guess what? I bet the good old manual transmission will still be around.

The more it changes, the more it stays the same.

Regards,

mooty

i am old now.
but when i rode, there was no climb in saratoga gap. it's pretty flat you can do it in HT with just single speed ;-)

mooty

some of you think paddle shifters are easy to drive. not really. and neither is sequential.
those who drove 6 cup then 7 cups, most take a long time to get the sequential right.

i drove a 430 challenge. without the clutch it's not much easier to drive if any. it has a different sort of "oneness" to the driver.

tcsracing1

i feel that even a paint color change is against the car bible.....

facelifts are one of the greatest sins to car.... updating is frowned upon in the bible big time

mdrums

LOL... Porsche for my own physical and personal reasons (see my aviator) PLEASE put a PDK into the GT3. Thanks

TRAKCAR

PDK is awesome, lets hope that all slushbox automatics are a thing of the past.
I really like ABS, but there was a real satisfaction in being good at treshhold braking pre-ABS time. The lack of ABS made some drivers better in managing weight transfer than some drivers who never drove without ABS.

I like to do the pedal work of shifting myself as part of my hobby, but glad to know that when I get older and track driving might becomes a bit much, or I get tired of getting past left and right by torque vectoring PDK's there is a great alternative waiting when I trade in my RS in around 2030.

DJN

The last time I owned a 911 (back in 2002, an '87 Carrera 3.2 - no abs or nanny) it was 15 years old and liked it just fine. I purchased a 2010 GT3 to get back into a track oriented 911, one that I will keep as long as I can, and I wanted to do so before fully manual transmissions get phased out and police montored black boxes get phased in. I think my timing might be pretty good.

There is nothing more fun than putting in several consistant and very fast hot laps (with TC and SC off) and knowing that this car will keep you challenged and entertained for many years to come.

Cheers!
Doug N.