Pictures of RUF CTR3 and GT2 RS from last weekend.
07-07-2010, 06:16 PM
#16
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They are quoting a DIN weight of 1370kg (that is 70kg pared out of an already light car !), it is very worthy of the RS tag IMO, lots of special differences from regular GT2, many more differences than original Carrera RS had over cooking 2.7 of the day and certainly far more than GT3RS has over GT3......
07-07-2010, 06:48 PM
#17
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clean 997 GT2s going in the low $100s in the USA... GT2RS will be what $250-275K...
IMHO the differences do not amount to pricing delta.
the GT2RS is the downfall of the RS moniker in my opinion.
Pluck 200 lbs out of a Cayenne turbo and turn up the boost... voila Cayenne RS
Do not get me wrong, I like the GT2RS... but I think they would have been better off just calling it the 997.2 GT2 and leave RS out of it...
IMHO the differences do not amount to pricing delta.
the GT2RS is the downfall of the RS moniker in my opinion.
Pluck 200 lbs out of a Cayenne turbo and turn up the boost... voila Cayenne RS
Do not get me wrong, I like the GT2RS... but I think they would have been better off just calling it the 997.2 GT2 and leave RS out of it...
07-07-2010, 07:05 PM
#18
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We are talking about a limited production of the fastest road Porsche of all times, and probably last old school supercar we ll ever see. A lightweight 600+ ps car worthy of the RS badge.
I ask again given what other manufacturers charge and Porsche on the other models of past and present what you would consider a fair price.
When I do that i find that the price tag fits the car.
Porsche will never repeat the 959 mistake again.
John
07-07-2010, 09:01 PM
#19
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Beginning to get annoying people keep posting reffering to GT3RSs as simply "the RS" or "RS" - particularly in this thread whose title contains GT2RS and no mention of GT3 - I just wasted another 30 seconnds of my life openingthe you tube vid to find it was a GT3 not a GT2.... and another 60 seconds posting this 
Edit: and yes I somehow missed the large white lettering on teh top of the vid saying GT3
Edit: and yes I somehow missed the large white lettering on teh top of the vid saying GT3
07-07-2010, 09:51 PM
#20
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In one thread someone calls the 2RS lame, here a rip off.
We are talking about a limited production of the fastest road Porsche of all times, and probably last old school supercar we ll ever see. A lightweight 600+ ps car worthy of the RS badge.
I ask again given what other manufacturers charge and Porsche on the other models of past and present what you would consider a fair price.
When I do that i find that the price tag fits the car.
Porsche will never repeat the 959 mistake again.
John
We are talking about a limited production of the fastest road Porsche of all times, and probably last old school supercar we ll ever see. A lightweight 600+ ps car worthy of the RS badge.
I ask again given what other manufacturers charge and Porsche on the other models of past and present what you would consider a fair price.
When I do that i find that the price tag fits the car.
Porsche will never repeat the 959 mistake again.
John
The 996 GT2 was overpriced, the 2008 GT2 was overpriced, this 2011 GT2 (called a GT2 RS) is even more overpriced. That's why these cars have horrible resale value. The GT3 and GT3 RS instead are priced properly and their resale is pretty good as well.
This 2011 GT2 should be priced in the $160k. Porsche instead priced it at $245k before options, so very likely a $260k-$270k car. It is fast (yes it is thanks to Michelin), but unlikely the ultimate Porsche road car (it is and will be the Carrera GT), unlike the latest old school car (993 CS and 993 GT2 are the ones), and likely to have the worse resale value in any water cooled 911 in history.
07-07-2010, 10:47 PM
#21
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With NJ-GT on this point. Great car, greatly overpriced. $250k-$270k!?! Are you kidding me? Where's the CF or Aluminum monocoque, the double wishbone suspension, the balanced weight distribution? Not to mention the coolant fittings that don't puke, the LSD that doesn't spin freely after a few track days, or the RMS that doesn't leak?
We're talking about a car whose basic design and tooling was ammortized in the last century. That's why Porsche has the highest margins in the industry.
Don't get me wrong, I love Porsches and I love my RS (GT3!) but if Porsche really wants to play in the $250k territory they need to produce something a lot more Carrera GT-like than 911.
We're talking about a car whose basic design and tooling was ammortized in the last century. That's why Porsche has the highest margins in the industry.
Don't get me wrong, I love Porsches and I love my RS (GT3!) but if Porsche really wants to play in the $250k territory they need to produce something a lot more Carrera GT-like than 911.
07-07-2010, 10:52 PM
#22
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Limited Production or Limited Availability is a marketing strategy. IIRC, in 2005 Porsche sold less than 10 GT2 in US and last year just 23 GT2, it doesn't get more limited than this.
The 996 GT2 was overpriced, the 2008 GT2 was overpriced, this 2011 GT2 (called a GT2 RS) is even more overpriced. That's why these cars have horrible resale value. The GT3 and GT3 RS instead are priced properly and their resale is pretty good as well.
This 2011 GT2 should be priced in the $160k. Porsche instead priced it at $245k before options, so very likely a $260k-$270k car. It is fast (yes it is thanks to Michelin), but unlikely the ultimate Porsche road car (it is and will be the Carrera GT), unlike the latest old school car (993 CS and 993 GT2 are the ones), and likely to have the worse resale value in any water cooled 911 in history.
The 996 GT2 was overpriced, the 2008 GT2 was overpriced, this 2011 GT2 (called a GT2 RS) is even more overpriced. That's why these cars have horrible resale value. The GT3 and GT3 RS instead are priced properly and their resale is pretty good as well.
This 2011 GT2 should be priced in the $160k. Porsche instead priced it at $245k before options, so very likely a $260k-$270k car. It is fast (yes it is thanks to Michelin), but unlikely the ultimate Porsche road car (it is and will be the Carrera GT), unlike the latest old school car (993 CS and 993 GT2 are the ones), and likely to have the worse resale value in any water cooled 911 in history.
and its not a real rs the -70kg and +100ps are not enough?
and the gt3rs is a real rs and not a 2010-11 gt3 because of 15hp+ and 20kg less?
and the premium is justified for the 3?
thanks to michelin? what you mean cups N?
and 500 cars is not limited? gt was thousands
these are your arguments?
me thinks you have joined the dark side after buying the scuderia but i like you too much for posting helpful suspension and tyre posts so i stop this here by saying wait until you meet one in a track.
John
07-07-2010, 11:00 PM
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The GT2RS is faster than the CGT and a third cheaper...
It is not just a 2011 GT2 but a proper RS work over of the GT2, it will be awesome. The standard GT2 will feel different to the RS more so than a GT3 does to a GT3RS. I can't afford one but that does not make it a proper RS even at £160k.
It is not just a 2011 GT2 but a proper RS work over of the GT2, it will be awesome. The standard GT2 will feel different to the RS more so than a GT3 does to a GT3RS. I can't afford one but that does not make it a proper RS even at £160k.
07-07-2010, 11:13 PM
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All that tells me is that the CGT was overpriced, which I suspect the MP4-12C will confirm (but I'll grant that it'll never match the sound of that V10).
The GT2 RS will be a great car. It'll be heaps of fun and fast as snot. But it'll never be a $250k car in my book.
The GT2 RS will be a great car. It'll be heaps of fun and fast as snot. But it'll never be a $250k car in my book.
07-08-2010, 05:23 AM
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IMHO, RS belongs to the GT3. Porsche released the first 996 GT3 RS to homologate the GT3 RSR in FIA/ACO, they did the same with the 2007 GT3 RS and the 2010 GT3 RS. Porsche is racing the GT3 RS in the form of GT3 Cup and GT3 Cup R. There are no homologation plans or racing plans with the GT2 RS, it is just another marketing gimmick. Heck, the next Carrera is supposed to come in S and RS flavors, so a Cayenne RS should not be that far away.
Taking the standard 997 GT2, adding boost to gain power (lame effort, they should have done a 3.8 or 4.0 TT), and reducing 155 lbs where most of the weight is due to missing parts and things that were already in the GT3 RS since 2004 (and I doubt it will be 155 lbs lighter in standard trim), then increasing the already overpriced MSRP by $50k, that's just delusional from Porsche. How can Porsche manufacture a 2011 Carrera for $70k and charge almost 4 times more for the same car with a body kit and power kit?, well they can but few people will follow.
The thing about the Michelin tires in the 2011 GT2 RS and 2010 GT3 RS came to life in a recent article from the german magazine Sport Auto and the SuperTest driver Horst Von Saurma (the same guy that co-drove the 2010 GT3 RS at the 24hrs Nurburgring race a few weeks back). The 245/325 MPSC equipped in the 2010 GT3 RS have horrible grip in wet conditions, but much more grip in dry conditions than the MPSC equipped in the 2010 GT3 and older GT3/GT2 since 2007. So, a lot of the 7 seconds advantage that the 2010 GT3 RS has over the 2010 GT3 at the Nurburgring has to do with just tires. These same tires are being used in the 2011 GT2 RS, and I bet these tires could help the 2008 GT2 to drop another 5 seconds from the Ring lap.
The Carrera GT on the other hand has been tested with Michelin PS2, on good sticky tires this car would be a lot faster. The same thing applies to the Enzo, an Enzo on good tires would crush the 430 Scuderia and 599 GTO around Fiorano.
I think the Carrera GT is the best bargain for a Supercar. Carbon monocoque, PCC clutch, flywheel-less, pushrod suspension, magnesium wheels, massive use of carbon fiber, and it has a radio, AC, and it is lighter than the GT2 RS. Did I mention that the engine was designed as a race engine?
Taking the standard 997 GT2, adding boost to gain power (lame effort, they should have done a 3.8 or 4.0 TT), and reducing 155 lbs where most of the weight is due to missing parts and things that were already in the GT3 RS since 2004 (and I doubt it will be 155 lbs lighter in standard trim), then increasing the already overpriced MSRP by $50k, that's just delusional from Porsche. How can Porsche manufacture a 2011 Carrera for $70k and charge almost 4 times more for the same car with a body kit and power kit?, well they can but few people will follow.
The thing about the Michelin tires in the 2011 GT2 RS and 2010 GT3 RS came to life in a recent article from the german magazine Sport Auto and the SuperTest driver Horst Von Saurma (the same guy that co-drove the 2010 GT3 RS at the 24hrs Nurburgring race a few weeks back). The 245/325 MPSC equipped in the 2010 GT3 RS have horrible grip in wet conditions, but much more grip in dry conditions than the MPSC equipped in the 2010 GT3 and older GT3/GT2 since 2007. So, a lot of the 7 seconds advantage that the 2010 GT3 RS has over the 2010 GT3 at the Nurburgring has to do with just tires. These same tires are being used in the 2011 GT2 RS, and I bet these tires could help the 2008 GT2 to drop another 5 seconds from the Ring lap.
The Carrera GT on the other hand has been tested with Michelin PS2, on good sticky tires this car would be a lot faster. The same thing applies to the Enzo, an Enzo on good tires would crush the 430 Scuderia and 599 GTO around Fiorano.
I think the Carrera GT is the best bargain for a Supercar. Carbon monocoque, PCC clutch, flywheel-less, pushrod suspension, magnesium wheels, massive use of carbon fiber, and it has a radio, AC, and it is lighter than the GT2 RS. Did I mention that the engine was designed as a race engine?
07-08-2010, 06:53 AM
#26
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NJ-GT
Thanks for taking the time for that post explaining your reasoning.
Can't agree with this bit although I am guessing you are fairly young and are not "feeling" the RS heritage as much as some of us older farts ? The original RS was a road special and not specifically for racing IIRC.
GT2 moniker (for Porsche) was invented for the 993 but was actually badged "911GT" and the 996GT2 and 997GT2 were very worthy successors to the 993 version having very similar modifications over and above the 4WD turbo versions of the respective models, the GT2s were the RWD turbo for the certain type of Porschefile who enjoyed the older RWD turbo concept.
"RS" was indeed reserected for the GT3 models but the differences between GT3 and GT3RS are pretty minimal compared to the differences between GT2 and GT2RS - forget your specific race series, surely that is moot as the various series are at the whims of the organisers ? the GT2RS has taken the GT3RS formula and gone much further.
If you NJ-GT would like the full spec of the GT2RS fire me a PM with your email and I will send you the dealers PDF spec, I think this may sway you a little
Regarding the changes to the engine, I agree entirely it is a very lame effort, quite simply it is a la GT2 + different turbos and (claimed) 15% better intercoolers running slightly more boost. The torque is held at the same level....the engine could have been and should have been for this money so much more !
I agree also that the weight in road trim will not be the 1370kg, more like 1410kg but still a lot more effort than went into the GT3RS in this dept.
Regarding the pricing, I can't get so excited as some of you guys, particularly in the US where you have always got Porsches so cheaply compared to us poor saps elsewhere ! The GT2RS is a big profit earner for Porsche no doubt but it will be exclusive and as you will see when you look at the full spec, there is a lot of effort making it special.
I know what you say about the tyres, in the wet the GT3RS was 7s slower than the regular GT3 in the wet.....so yes they probably do alone account for 5s, but the other 9s ??? that is pretty impressive isn't it ?
BTW I run 245 N1 cups on my 7GT2 and can't say it feels any different on th road in the wet !
The Carrera GT is NOT lighter than the GT2RS, in street trim the Carrera GTs are about 1475kg - I have weighed my regular 7GT2 at 1465kg (DIN) so the GT2RS will be substantially lighter - The Carrera GT is a different sort of car, it is an exotic, wide, difficlut standard clutch, pretty dangerous set up in comparison to the GT2 which is almost benign with its sporty PSM/TC set up - for actually using as a road car (these are road cars remember, despite some of the antics of certain speed limited frustrated alpha males) the CGT does not cut it yet the GT2RS will.....
Thanks for taking the time for that post explaining your reasoning.
IMHO, RS belongs to the GT3. Porsche released the first 996 GT3 RS to homologate the GT3 RSR in FIA/ACO, they did the same with the 2007 GT3 RS and the 2010 GT3 RS. Porsche is racing the GT3 RS in the form of GT3 Cup and GT3 Cup R. There are no homologation plans or racing plans with the GT2 RS, it is just another marketing gimmick. Heck, the next Carrera is supposed to come in S and RS flavors, so a Cayenne RS should not be that far away
GT2 moniker (for Porsche) was invented for the 993 but was actually badged "911GT" and the 996GT2 and 997GT2 were very worthy successors to the 993 version having very similar modifications over and above the 4WD turbo versions of the respective models, the GT2s were the RWD turbo for the certain type of Porschefile who enjoyed the older RWD turbo concept.
"RS" was indeed reserected for the GT3 models but the differences between GT3 and GT3RS are pretty minimal compared to the differences between GT2 and GT2RS - forget your specific race series, surely that is moot as the various series are at the whims of the organisers ? the GT2RS has taken the GT3RS formula and gone much further.
If you NJ-GT would like the full spec of the GT2RS fire me a PM with your email and I will send you the dealers PDF spec, I think this may sway you a little
Taking the standard 997 GT2, adding boost to gain power (lame effort, they should have done a 3.8 or 4.0 TT), and reducing 155 lbs where most of the weight is due to missing parts and things that were already in the GT3 RS since 2004 (and I doubt it will be 155 lbs lighter in standard trim), then increasing the already overpriced MSRP by $50k, that's just delusional from Porsche. How can Porsche manufacture a 2011 Carrera for $70k and charge almost 4 times more for the same car with a body kit and power kit?, well they can but few people will follow..
I agree also that the weight in road trim will not be the 1370kg, more like 1410kg but still a lot more effort than went into the GT3RS in this dept.
Regarding the pricing, I can't get so excited as some of you guys, particularly in the US where you have always got Porsches so cheaply compared to us poor saps elsewhere ! The GT2RS is a big profit earner for Porsche no doubt but it will be exclusive and as you will see when you look at the full spec, there is a lot of effort making it special.
The thing about the Michelin tires in the 2011 GT2 RS and 2010 GT3 RS came to life in a recent article from the german magazine Sport Auto and the SuperTest driver Horst Von Saurma (the same guy that co-drove the 2010 GT3 RS at the 24hrs Nurburgring race a few weeks back). The 245/325 MPSC equipped in the 2010 GT3 RS have horrible grip in wet conditions, but much more grip in dry conditions than the MPSC equipped in the 2010 GT3 and older GT3/GT2 since 2007. So, a lot of the 7 seconds advantage that the 2010 GT3 RS has over the 2010 GT3 at the Nurburgring has to do with just tires. These same tires are being used in the 2011 GT2 RS, and I bet these tires could help the 2008 GT2 to drop another 5 seconds from the Ring lap.
BTW I run 245 N1 cups on my 7GT2 and can't say it feels any different on th road in the wet !
The Carrera GT on the other hand has been tested with Michelin PS2, on good sticky tires this car would be a lot faster. The same thing applies to the Enzo, an Enzo on good tires would crush the 430 Scuderia and 599 GTO around Fiorano.
I think the Carrera GT is the best bargain for a Supercar. Carbon monocoque, PCC clutch, flywheel-less, pushrod suspension, magnesium wheels, massive use of carbon fiber, and it has a radio, AC, and it is lighter than the GT2 RS. Did I mention that the engine was designed as a race engine?
I think the Carrera GT is the best bargain for a Supercar. Carbon monocoque, PCC clutch, flywheel-less, pushrod suspension, magnesium wheels, massive use of carbon fiber, and it has a radio, AC, and it is lighter than the GT2 RS. Did I mention that the engine was designed as a race engine?
07-08-2010, 07:34 AM
#27
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UK GT2RS = 164k GBP incl. 17.5% VAT
-VAT = 135k GBP = $204K USD
US GT2RS = $245K USD
Heck lets compare with tax.
In UK 164k GBP = $248K USD
In US lets say LA. $245K + 9.75% tax = $269K USD
Looks like its cheaper for you folks now. of course registration, smog tax, and insurance is another matter entirely ;-)
-VAT = 135k GBP = $204K USD
US GT2RS = $245K USD
Heck lets compare with tax.
In UK 164k GBP = $248K USD
In US lets say LA. $245K + 9.75% tax = $269K USD
Looks like its cheaper for you folks now. of course registration, smog tax, and insurance is another matter entirely ;-)
07-08-2010, 08:22 AM
#28
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UK GT2RS = 164k GBP incl. 17.5% VAT
-VAT = 135k GBP = $204K USD
US GT2RS = $245K USD
Heck lets compare with tax.
In UK 164k GBP = $248K USD
In US lets say LA. $245K + 9.75% tax = $269K USD
Looks like its cheaper for you folks now. of course registration, smog tax, and insurance is another matter entirely ;-)
-VAT = 135k GBP = $204K USD
US GT2RS = $245K USD
Heck lets compare with tax.
In UK 164k GBP = $248K USD
In US lets say LA. $245K + 9.75% tax = $269K USD
Looks like its cheaper for you folks now. of course registration, smog tax, and insurance is another matter entirely ;-)
Edit: I hear in Germany the demand for the Gt2RS is somewhat muted due to the silly high pricing for the German market ?
07-08-2010, 01:44 PM
#29
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NET for NET the GT2RS is actually currently $2K USD cheaper in germany at MSRP. of course when you factor in 19% VAT compared to US ~9% sales tax its still about a $20K premium for them. still not bad. I have no idea how well it will sell but based on the number of German spec GT3 RS's available its not looking good. On a side note, earily quiet and empty this morning on my way to work. i guess everyone is hungover and depressed about the game.
edit: i read you folks are getting a bump in VAT to 20% in 2011? Is that true? ouch!
edit: i read you folks are getting a bump in VAT to 20% in 2011? Is that true? ouch!
07-08-2010, 01:58 PM
#30
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NET for NET the GT2RS is actually currently $2K USD cheaper in germany at MSRP. of course when you factor in 19% VAT compared to US ~9% sales tax its still about a $20K premium for them. still not bad. I have no idea how well it will sell but based on the number of German spec GT3 RS's available its not looking good. On a side note, earily quiet and empty this morning on my way to work. i guess everyone is hungover and depressed about the game.
edit: i read you folks are getting a bump in VAT to 20% in 2011? Is that true? ouch!
edit: i read you folks are getting a bump in VAT to 20% in 2011? Is that true? ouch!
..not a good time to sell the 2rs.
vat is 23%.
Last edited by 911SLOW; 07-08-2010 at 01:59 PM. Reason: typo