Have you ever had a bad instructor experience before?!
06-21-2010, 09:16 PM
#31
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Thread Starter
06-21-2010, 09:27 PM
#32
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Like I said, I know I'm probably not the brightest student driver (no future racing star here..), but I am definitely there to learn and willing to put in the effort. (and I definitely listen..) So while I'm sure I was at fault to some degree (i.e., can't learn from him quick enough so he got mad.. but seriously, no reason to get mad after session #1 and #2, having never been to the track prior), but that's not because I didn't listen.. it was just that the style of his teaching didn't work for me. When I asked for a ride after the 1st session, I was refused. (I asked because I benefited from that in previous track event, and I know I learn a great deal that way..)
Also, when you kept being put down, I found that I lost concentration there as well.. I mean, I don't even mind the curse words.. (a guy to a guy, no biggie.. whatever) But it should be part of a constructive sentence.. i.e., "you f-ed up here, next lap, you should look for xxx so you turn in there, and tighten to xxx spot, that should help you line up your car" etc., instead of just at every corner just someone screaming at you "wrong", "wrong again", "wrong".. I thought about pulling into the pit, but then I didn't want to **** him off, so I just continued to circulate. But I guess that's pissed him off more.
I remember at one session, after pulled in, he asked me why I wasn't shifting. I said, "I thought you you told me to go slow, so I just left it in 4th", and he just went "oh, right.."
Anyway, like I said, I know it is a volunteer job. So I appreciate people who do this, absolutely. I just think that if a dumb student (like me) would get you so fired up, then why not just run in the black group? Then you don't have to deal w/ teaching and keep the blood pressure low.
Also, when you kept being put down, I found that I lost concentration there as well.. I mean, I don't even mind the curse words.. (a guy to a guy, no biggie.. whatever) But it should be part of a constructive sentence.. i.e., "you f-ed up here, next lap, you should look for xxx so you turn in there, and tighten to xxx spot, that should help you line up your car" etc., instead of just at every corner just someone screaming at you "wrong", "wrong again", "wrong".. I thought about pulling into the pit, but then I didn't want to **** him off, so I just continued to circulate. But I guess that's pissed him off more.
I remember at one session, after pulled in, he asked me why I wasn't shifting. I said, "I thought you you told me to go slow, so I just left it in 4th", and he just went "oh, right.."
Anyway, like I said, I know it is a volunteer job. So I appreciate people who do this, absolutely. I just think that if a dumb student (like me) would get you so fired up, then why not just run in the black group? Then you don't have to deal w/ teaching and keep the blood pressure low.
He pretty much failed all of the "common sense" communications skills that he should demonstrate ...
This guy either was on an off day, a bad instructor, or didn't like you ... or some combination of the three ...
either way it was not a positive experience for you, in future if/when this happens, go find the chief instructor and politely ask for someone else.
Be specific, honest, but objective about your issues with the person.
having a bad instructor isnt just a negative experience, it is also dangerous.
Also, make it clear to the instructor if it is permissable for him to touch the controls of the car while you are driving. Some instructors feel it is allowed,
I personally would never allow one to touch the controls under any circumstances ... your mistakes (no matter how bad they are) should be yours and yours alone, IMHO
better luck next time
06-21-2010, 09:33 PM
#33
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Thread Starter
Yeah, but at least I will have a better idea on how to deal w/ things going forward. The comment you mentioned about steering wheel. Yeah, I didn't expect the grab on the steering wheels. So the first couple of times when he was grabbing the wheels, I didn't know what to expect. I thought he was gonna steer so I let go off the wheels for a blink of eye. (Just instinct, because I didn't want to fight with him on the wheel)
Of course, he got really furious and told me what the f I was doing, put the hands on the wheel..
Like you guys said.. next time, I will make sure that I will try to set the expectation up front, I guess.. !
Of course, he got really furious and told me what the f I was doing, put the hands on the wheel..
Like you guys said.. next time, I will make sure that I will try to set the expectation up front, I guess.. !
06-21-2010, 09:37 PM
#34
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Eric,
Too bad about your experience with the "instructor". There are a lot of very good people instructing out there as you know. Hopefully, this was a once in a lifetime encounter. I can't imagine this character will make it as an instructor very long. Letting the chief inst. know what happened may keep this "clown " out of another students car.
How is the 3 doing? Are you ready to sell? I sure miss her.
Joe
Too bad about your experience with the "instructor". There are a lot of very good people instructing out there as you know. Hopefully, this was a once in a lifetime encounter. I can't imagine this character will make it as an instructor very long. Letting the chief inst. know what happened may keep this "clown " out of another students car.
How is the 3 doing? Are you ready to sell? I sure miss her.
Joe
06-21-2010, 09:37 PM
#35
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1. SPECIFIC TO YOUR EXPERIENCE: every one is different, but this is not about being different. any instructed keep saying F word should be removed, period. if an instructor tells me i f'up, i will park the car, take my pants off and StrekStrekStrekStrek him right from behind once i put two layers of condom on. you want to fk, i am all for it. man or woman. anyone tell me to fk off, i will fk them hard. NO ONE tells me to StrekStrekStrekStrek off. that pisses me off. and i dont think in know of anyone alive that pissed me off. they are usually in a pine box for pissing me off. you are asian, you know.
2. SPECIFIC TO DE INSTRUCTION: you as a student, if you dont like the teacher, find another one. talk to chief instructor. one of my very good friend who's really really fast cannot teach me well. i dont get his method. that doesn't mean he's bad or i am stupid. we just dont fit. so find someone that can teach YOU. he maybe be slow as hell, but he may be good instructor.
3. also if you were going that slow and are somewhat on line, the instructor shoudn't tell you to slow down. very slow driving will not learn anything. if you are off line and my life is in danger, i will get you to park the car. if i think you have some idea of what "line " is, then i want you to carry enough speed to feel the force of the car carrying you to the apex, have enough speed to throttle steer blah blah... if the instructor is so scared to die, he should quit instructing.
sorry, my blood is boiling when i hear instructors keeping saying you "f'd up". it's HIS JOB to make you not f'up.... if always did well, who need instructor?
2. SPECIFIC TO DE INSTRUCTION: you as a student, if you dont like the teacher, find another one. talk to chief instructor. one of my very good friend who's really really fast cannot teach me well. i dont get his method. that doesn't mean he's bad or i am stupid. we just dont fit. so find someone that can teach YOU. he maybe be slow as hell, but he may be good instructor.
3. also if you were going that slow and are somewhat on line, the instructor shoudn't tell you to slow down. very slow driving will not learn anything. if you are off line and my life is in danger, i will get you to park the car. if i think you have some idea of what "line " is, then i want you to carry enough speed to feel the force of the car carrying you to the apex, have enough speed to throttle steer blah blah... if the instructor is so scared to die, he should quit instructing.
sorry, my blood is boiling when i hear instructors keeping saying you "f'd up". it's HIS JOB to make you not f'up.... if always did well, who need instructor?
06-21-2010, 09:44 PM
#36
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Thread Starter
Hi Joe,
The car is doing great.. I had an oil change last week and I slapped on some P-50 Green up front and some thicker P-40 Green on the back.. (Porsche Motorsport PCCB pads) The car just turned 22k miles (when I got it from you, it was 14.7k) so it is getting used, but well maintained.. (oil changed 2x and tranny flushed once) Running like a champ!
Of course, w/ 22k miles, Mooty here will said that it now worth only $40k, and should be made into a full on track car...
The car is doing great.. I had an oil change last week and I slapped on some P-50 Green up front and some thicker P-40 Green on the back.. (Porsche Motorsport PCCB pads) The car just turned 22k miles (when I got it from you, it was 14.7k) so it is getting used, but well maintained.. (oil changed 2x and tranny flushed once) Running like a champ!
Of course, w/ 22k miles, Mooty here will said that it now worth only $40k, and should be made into a full on track car...
Eric,
Too bad about your experience with the "instructor". There are a lot of very good people instructing out there as you know. Hopefully, this was a once in a lifetime encounter. I can't imagine this character will make it as an instructor very long. Letting the chief inst. know what happened may keep this "clown " out of another students car.
How is the 3 doing? Are you ready to sell? I sure miss her.
Joe
Too bad about your experience with the "instructor". There are a lot of very good people instructing out there as you know. Hopefully, this was a once in a lifetime encounter. I can't imagine this character will make it as an instructor very long. Letting the chief inst. know what happened may keep this "clown " out of another students car.
How is the 3 doing? Are you ready to sell? I sure miss her.
Joe
06-21-2010, 09:49 PM
#37
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Thread Starter
Mooty, points well taken.. I hope I won't experience this type of thing again, but if I do, I will make sure that I politely asking to switch instructor. Like I said, I'm the type of personality that don't like to cause trouble and just "deal with it", but yeah, it didn't work out too well for me.
But like I said, I'm not as extreme like you.. I don't even mind he said I "f-ed up" instead of "messed up", that's fine.. My problem was more toward the method of instruction.. "in in in in, no, too early, no, no, you f-ed up".. I was like, I thought you said "in"? But maybe "in" means just a little in, not a lot of "in"?
Anyway, it was an interesting experience for sure.
But like I said, I'm not as extreme like you.. I don't even mind he said I "f-ed up" instead of "messed up", that's fine.. My problem was more toward the method of instruction.. "in in in in, no, too early, no, no, you f-ed up".. I was like, I thought you said "in"? But maybe "in" means just a little in, not a lot of "in"?
Anyway, it was an interesting experience for sure.
06-21-2010, 09:57 PM
#38
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Mooty, points well taken.. I hope I won't experience this type of thing again, but if I do, I will make sure that I politely asking to switch instructor. Like I said, I'm the type of personality that don't like to cause trouble and just "deal with it", but yeah, it didn't work out too well for me.
But like I said, I'm not as extreme like you.. I don't even mind he said I "f-ed up" instead of "messed up", that's fine.. My problem was more toward the method of instruction.. "in in in in, no, too early, no, no, you f-ed up".. I was like, I thought you said "in"? But maybe "in" means just a little in, not a lot of "in"?
Anyway, it was an interesting experience for sure.
But like I said, I'm not as extreme like you.. I don't even mind he said I "f-ed up" instead of "messed up", that's fine.. My problem was more toward the method of instruction.. "in in in in, no, too early, no, no, you f-ed up".. I was like, I thought you said "in"? But maybe "in" means just a little in, not a lot of "in"?
Anyway, it was an interesting experience for sure.
i deal with it too.
i am quite good at smashing the wall with passenger side of my car. i also have eject seat on passenger side. i really do.
06-21-2010, 10:35 PM
#39
I cant believe all the abuse you took.
You certainly did not learn and the amount of abuse you took prolly set you back.
I am lucky that that the instructors i drive with never have been a holes like that.
You are a champion to stay with it!
BTW: I love watkins glen. I scored a win there in a skippy car 3 weeks ago
It has such a flow to it - i love the boot section - esp laces
06-21-2010, 11:06 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
First of all, I'm not an instructor. I'm in my 3rd season doing DE's so have had a few more instructors than you and luckily never had a bonehead like the guy you are describing. One of my friends did though and instead of going to the chief instructor, he left for the rest of the weekend.
Some of the instructors I have had were very quiet, some very talkative, some very ****, some very loose. They all have something you can take away with you even if it's "ask for a different instructor". I'm more like Moody in that if I felt I was being abused like what bonehead did to you, I would have told the guy to get the F out of my car and gone to get someone else. There has to be some kind of re-pore. If the guy is not helping you see the mistakes and showing you how to correct them, then he is not an instructor, he's an obnoxious passenger.
I have also found it very helpful to ride in my instructors car and see and listen to his approach to things. Hardest thing for me is when I get an instructor who contradicts what 95% of my previous instructors has told me, especially if his attitude is "my way or the highway". I'm all for learning but please don't confuse me, show me it works and then I can comprehend it.
Last guy I had was very ****, very difficult to please, and generally made me feel inadequate, but not in an unpleasant way. He was doing a check out for promotion. The instructor at the previous event made me feel like a champ, was easy going, and told the chief instructor that I was ready for promotion, so you never know. Those last 2 events were on different tracks and the check out for promotion was on a track that we only drive on once a year.
Keep at it and have fun.
Some of the instructors I have had were very quiet, some very talkative, some very ****, some very loose. They all have something you can take away with you even if it's "ask for a different instructor". I'm more like Moody in that if I felt I was being abused like what bonehead did to you, I would have told the guy to get the F out of my car and gone to get someone else. There has to be some kind of re-pore. If the guy is not helping you see the mistakes and showing you how to correct them, then he is not an instructor, he's an obnoxious passenger.
I have also found it very helpful to ride in my instructors car and see and listen to his approach to things. Hardest thing for me is when I get an instructor who contradicts what 95% of my previous instructors has told me, especially if his attitude is "my way or the highway". I'm all for learning but please don't confuse me, show me it works and then I can comprehend it.
Last guy I had was very ****, very difficult to please, and generally made me feel inadequate, but not in an unpleasant way. He was doing a check out for promotion. The instructor at the previous event made me feel like a champ, was easy going, and told the chief instructor that I was ready for promotion, so you never know. Those last 2 events were on different tracks and the check out for promotion was on a track that we only drive on once a year.
Keep at it and have fun.
06-21-2010, 11:08 PM
#41
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WOW! You certainly deserve a medal for putting up with that much abuse.
I've had really TERRIBLE students, and have yet to loose my cool, let alone insult them in any way.
And at the end of the day, they all improved their driving a LOT, and had a great day while doing so.
My 2 cents:
I know this is a bit controversial, so "caveat emptor": this is my very personal approach.
Before driving the car, we have a little chat, the usual stuff. That lets me know the guy a little, and breaks the ice. I usually ask him a few things about his car, for example what tire pressures he's running. That lets me know who I'm dealing with.
Before going out, I go over a few simple hand signals (track out, passing signals, gas, brake, etc), and talk about what to do in the event of a spin (don't panic, two feet in, keep wheel staight, etc). I also ask the student if it's OK for me to touch the steering wheel if I feel a slight correction is in order. That way, he knows about it before it happens, and you also got his consent to do so.
I ALWAYS ask the student, particularly if it's his first time, if it's OK for me to drive his car first, with him as a passenger.
That allows me to do 2 things. First, I calibrate my butt to the particular idiosyncracies of that vehicle, and get a good idea what it feels like. Many times you can detect a problem with the vehicle, just by doing this. Secondly, it lets me concentrate on driving the correct line, so the student can get it ingrained in his brain. I think it's easier to learn the line by observation, without the added pressure of having to actually drive the line, while you are learning it.
I keep these laps to 4-5/10ths driving. The idea is to show them the proper line, not to scare them.
While I'm driving, I am constantly talking to the guy about turn in, apex point, wind-out, speed and gear that I'm in, braking points, etc. I ALWAYS use a 2-way radio system. There's simply no excuse not to have one.
After 3-4 laps of this, we come in and have a quick chat about what we did. We trade seats, and we do the same, with the student driving his car. If the guy is really green, I usually ask him to keep the car in one gear, let's say 3rd, and keep the speed constant thoughout the lap. That takes a lot of variables (shifting, pedal use, etc) out of the equation and lets him concentrate on driving the car.
I've yet to fail with these few simple guidelines.
Good luck with your track experience, and don't get discouraged by this guy. He has a lot to learn.
I've had really TERRIBLE students, and have yet to loose my cool, let alone insult them in any way.
And at the end of the day, they all improved their driving a LOT, and had a great day while doing so.
My 2 cents:
I know this is a bit controversial, so "caveat emptor": this is my very personal approach.
Before driving the car, we have a little chat, the usual stuff. That lets me know the guy a little, and breaks the ice. I usually ask him a few things about his car, for example what tire pressures he's running. That lets me know who I'm dealing with.
Before going out, I go over a few simple hand signals (track out, passing signals, gas, brake, etc), and talk about what to do in the event of a spin (don't panic, two feet in, keep wheel staight, etc). I also ask the student if it's OK for me to touch the steering wheel if I feel a slight correction is in order. That way, he knows about it before it happens, and you also got his consent to do so.
I ALWAYS ask the student, particularly if it's his first time, if it's OK for me to drive his car first, with him as a passenger.
That allows me to do 2 things. First, I calibrate my butt to the particular idiosyncracies of that vehicle, and get a good idea what it feels like. Many times you can detect a problem with the vehicle, just by doing this. Secondly, it lets me concentrate on driving the correct line, so the student can get it ingrained in his brain. I think it's easier to learn the line by observation, without the added pressure of having to actually drive the line, while you are learning it.
I keep these laps to 4-5/10ths driving. The idea is to show them the proper line, not to scare them.
While I'm driving, I am constantly talking to the guy about turn in, apex point, wind-out, speed and gear that I'm in, braking points, etc. I ALWAYS use a 2-way radio system. There's simply no excuse not to have one.
After 3-4 laps of this, we come in and have a quick chat about what we did. We trade seats, and we do the same, with the student driving his car. If the guy is really green, I usually ask him to keep the car in one gear, let's say 3rd, and keep the speed constant thoughout the lap. That takes a lot of variables (shifting, pedal use, etc) out of the equation and lets him concentrate on driving the car.
I've yet to fail with these few simple guidelines.
Good luck with your track experience, and don't get discouraged by this guy. He has a lot to learn.
06-21-2010, 11:42 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
So sorry to hear this. In the future if you are not "gelling" with the instructor you can go to the tent leaded or Chief driving instructor and ask for a different instructor. You are the customer! Sometimes student/instructor matches are off but it sounds to me like the instructor has a problem and that is putting it nicely.
Joe
Joe
You should have gotten rid of him right away.
06-22-2010, 12:12 AM
#43
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Thread Starter
Ha, I need to learn to be a little bit tougher like you guys.. for real..
Yeah, he was about 2x my age, so I tried to be respectful and just "take it".. but like I said, on the hindsight, it would have been better if I ask to switch.
Yeah, he was about 2x my age, so I tried to be respectful and just "take it".. but like I said, on the hindsight, it would have been better if I ask to switch.
06-22-2010, 12:14 AM
#44
WOW! You certainly deserve a medal for putting up with that much abuse.
I've had really TERRIBLE students, and have yet to loose my cool, let alone insult them in any way.
And at the end of the day, they all improved their driving a LOT, and had a great day while doing so.
My 2 cents:
I know this is a bit controversial, so "caveat emptor": this is my very personal approach.
Good luck with your track experience, and don't get discouraged by this guy. He has a lot to learn.
I've had really TERRIBLE students, and have yet to loose my cool, let alone insult them in any way.
And at the end of the day, they all improved their driving a LOT, and had a great day while doing so.
My 2 cents:
I know this is a bit controversial, so "caveat emptor": this is my very personal approach.
Good luck with your track experience, and don't get discouraged by this guy. He has a lot to learn.
I have had about 15 folks in my right seat and nothing as bad as your experience. Some better some worse some very special and gifted. Just accept you had a horrible bad instructor and move forward.
You sound open minded to the fact that if you sucked, you would fess up to it...haha. But I don't get the impression at all that you would be hard to work with or that your driving is that bad.
Keep looking for someone who suits your style and if you can, try to work with them regularly?
Put this behind you my Friend and keep having fun.
06-22-2010, 12:45 AM
#45
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Thread Starter
jbossolo, your teaching style would really work for me.. !!
The points that you mentioned all happened (not all by the same instructor) in my previous DEs.. I have had instructor taking my car out (great!), taking me out w/ their cars (even better), tell me to stay in one gear (my first ever DE! Really green!), etc. And I found them to be all really helpful. So you are definitely right on in all aspect.
The points that you mentioned all happened (not all by the same instructor) in my previous DEs.. I have had instructor taking my car out (great!), taking me out w/ their cars (even better), tell me to stay in one gear (my first ever DE! Really green!), etc. And I found them to be all really helpful. So you are definitely right on in all aspect.