Have you ever had a bad instructor experience before?!
 

I know this is not GT3 specific, but since I hang around here most, I figured that I'd post it here. I know many of you are actually instructors so the days of in Green / Yellow are long gone, but I'm curious if you ever had a bad instructor experience?

A little background, only started doing DE this year so I'm definitely a beginner. Got moved up from Green to Yellow last event and ran as Yellow for the first time this past weekend at Watkins Glen. I heard a lot about the track and was looking forward to it very much. This was my 8th DE days (since April, when I started doing DE).

In my prior 7 DEs, I have found the PCA instructors to be great. They all have different style. Some are more hardcore and push me harder (the instructor who signed me off to Yellow races a Cup car and when he was happy about my line, he would tell me to use less brake, carry more speed, etc, etc.) and some are more relax, don't push you as hard, but definitely get the idea across on where you should be, what reference point to look at, etc. So I have had most positive experience doing DEs. Until this past weekend....

So I started out the weekend by finding my instructor in the garage. Greet, introduce myself, explain my experience.. So when it was time for the first session, he opened the door, and saw I have seats and harness, he asked me if I have the normal seat belt. (I always thought safety is good?) I figured that we will take it easy (totally fine w/ me, since it was my first time out there), maybe that's why. He sat directly onto the camlock and harness (they were buckled in) and then try to do the 3 point belt. He then realize that it is not very comfortable (because he is sitting on the camlock, lap belts, etc.) so he got up and undo those, and then finally seat himself. I asked him if he has the radio (for talking / instruction) because I didn't see it. He said, no, his is broken. Oh well.. Can't be that bad, I figured. Off we went.

Going around the course, he wanted me to go as slow as possible. I'm okay w/ that, because it is important to know the line. The problem is, he has a difficult time communicating that to me. Often time, it is just comment like "in, in, in, in". And that is all okay, really, except if I get it wrong (turn in too quickly, too late, cause I don't know the course.. and I don't know if his # of "in" is corresponding the urgency of turning in?), he got really angry.. basically, instead of saying something constructive, I get screamed at "you f-ed up", "f-ed up again", "wrong" (but nothing else.. ha! Not like, "if you see the pavement change color, that's where you should turn in" or something in that nature that I can use).. Oh, and a lot of "slow the f#$% down" through out the day. (and seriously, I wasn't going fast.. not like I was moving around or drifting at the corners, not even close) I also saw him bracing himself using the door handle and the front dash. And I was thinking, why wouldn't you want to use the harness?? Strange..

So after the 1st session, I know I am having problem w/ the line. (still don't know what's the line..) I took the track map and brought it to my instructor, and ask him about some corner. He looked at it and said, no use to look at the map, since you can't be thinking about these when you are driving, or you will mess up, you need to concentrate on the corner that you are driving. That's fine, but I really was just trying to learn the track, hoping that he can point out some reference points for me. Nope.

So I asked him if he can take me out for a few laps, that would be useful. I have always found that to be useful to see how it is done, then I can see where I should be. Nope.

I said, I'm not a fast learner. Maybe we can concentrate on a couple of corners to make sure I know it really well. He said, just drive....

Hmm.. so we went out.. now at least I know some corners, I was going a little bit quicker. (Again, tires not chirping, and I only have PS-2, ha! Still very safe pace) and right away, it was "slow the f%$^ down". I totally know that the line is most critical, but it is difficult to get a feel when you are doing 30mph. A few times, cause we were going so slow (I'm not joking), I accelerated toward the apex and my instructor became furious, said how what I did was "amateur-ish", "that is a green run group driver", etc. And that happened a couple of times, because we don't have radio, so when he said "no", I thought he said "go", and of course, he got really angry and threw a lot of f-bombs my way... In one instance, he became quiet, and then came back like 30 seconds later, he said, "you know why I was quiet? because you kept on f-ing it up, so I am just gonna shut up".. not making any of these up.

I also got a lot of criticism for unwinding too much. Because we were going at a pace that's not too quick, when he said that I should go to the track out, you have to unwind more to go there. And when I did that, he said "you drove there, that's WRONG, who are you trying to impress? I am not impressed".. I was confused, cause I thought he wanted the line (to use the whole track) but if I don't unwind enough, then we don't get to the edge, then I'm not using the track, and I get yelled at. So I got really confused. So I got yelled at for it a few more times, telling me that "I drove there on purpose", "amateur-ish", "I'm not impressed"..

Some drivers came to me during our break and asked if something is wrong with the car, why I was giving everyone points by. (cause they have seen me at other events before) I just shake my head.. ha..

Anyway, so the next day, first session out, again, a lot of "you f-ed up".. (would be nice if I know what to do to correct it), for a series of 1/2 laps, after a lot of "you f-ed up", he gave me like 5 or 6 corners in a row, just "wrong", "wrong", wrong", "wrong again", "wrong".. and "you are on your own". Anyway, let me tell you.. it is hard to concentrate when that's all you hear. (nothing except "wrong" or "you f-ed up") I just slowed the way down and circulate the track and hoping the weekend is over.

With only 1 session to go, I was wondering if anything I can do to help the learning, despite what is happening. So I said, look, I would really appreciate it if you can take me out on a ride, that would really help me a lot. So finally, before my last session of the weekend. We went out in his car. No radio, so I just observe on my own. I used the patches on the track as reference (like "it looks like his left wheel is close to this patch", "I need to start turning in when the patch changing color", etc)

So in the last session out, I was hitting those points okay. As a result, much less "you f-ed up" or "wrong" in the session. I did have an exciting end of the day, however. I was going a little too fast for one corner.. and I ended up in a spin. so thank god that nothing happened. We started drifting.. and all I heard was "oh ****, oh ****, oh ****" from my instructor.. (I was hoping someone would say, "stay on the gas" or "put both feet in"..) I wasn't going that fast, but more like panic.. So the "oh ****" spooked me and we ended up w/ a spin and 2 wheels were off the track. I did appreciate the fact that the first thing he said was "are you okay?" That was my first spin ever on track.

So we came into pit, talked to the marshal, and off we go again, and just took it easy.

Certainly, as a new guy, I'm in no position to criticize people's driving. And that's not what I am doing here. And for those who have met me, you would know that I don't drive over my head, my limit, and is usually very humble and willing to learn. But gosh, I think appropriate communication is so important.. I don't mind people criticize my driving (and other instructors do that) and I don't even mind the f-bombs, but you got to be able to tell me how to improve, how to correct the mistake, help the student to learn, (and every students are different too, I'm sure), etc. By telling me "wrong" (10x in a row, with no other words in between) or "you f-ed up" without telling me where the turning points and such when I was struggling to find the line, is simply not very constructive. If you are gonna be impatience and get all furious easily, maybe one should not instruct.

Anyway, that's a long story.. if you are still reading.. ha! So I am curious, am I the only one or some of you have had bad experience like this before?!

So sorry to hear this. In the future if you are not "gelling" with the instructor you can go to the tent leaded or Chief driving instructor and ask for a different instructor. You are the customer! Sometimes student/instructor matches are off but it sounds to me like the instructor has a problem and that is putting it nicely.

Joe

I've had the same type of Instructor, actually I didn't consider it bad. He would even grab my wheel and and start the corner entry for me. Hence the "slow the f down" becuase you just won't get it if you are going to fast. I let him coach the turn in points for a few laps till I was getting it and he was more comfortable with me knowing it.
Then we proceeded with basically 3 words or gestures brake, in, out
I've even had him complain about not unwinding the wheel and letting it track out. I had to yell at him that the car is going to slow that if I don't unwind it won't track out. He apologized to me afterward.
Remember these guys have to sit in your car and that can be quite frightening, specially when people don't listen and are not getting it.
Once you get the brake point, turn in, track out as well as pointing people by done. Means you now be at the point that your hitting the apex properly and the instructor is not saying much other then good or a gesture here and there. As well you should be telling him you messed up, when you mess up.
My instructor told me slow down even though I wanted to go faster. He said don't worry about the guys that are going faster day 1 by the end of the weekend if you listen to me, you'll be going quicker then any of them. He was right.
Sounds like you just couldn't find a way to listen and he gave up.

After the 1st session, I kind of have that feeling that it is not going to work out. My previous instructor who was also at the event told me that if I would like to talk to the people for a switch.. I just thought maybe it was just the 1st session and maybe it would get better, and I don't want to piss anybody off (I guess that's my personality, I don't like conflict.. ha!) so I said no worry..

But in hindsight, I would be better off w/ a switch. Yes. So I guess that's a lesson learned there..

Obviously you are only hearing my side of story, so I can definitely understand what you meant.. the problem was that by grabbing my wheel (he did that too), I still wasn't sure what exactly to do.. (what he wants me to do) and it is certainly possible that I'm not a fast learner.. or I learn things in a different way.. (like I said, once I went out w/ a ride, I got it a lot quicker that way..)

But to be sure, it was definitely a communication problem. And it was definitely not that I think I was a hot shot so I don't listen.. but rather, I guess the way we communicated, it didn't quite work for me.. ?

Teacher and student is always an interactive relation thus not always easy to match. But from the way you describe it, I feel that you should have complaint at least and change instructor.
I wouldnt mind a strict one but one who talks that way would be too much for me.
Good luck with your next sessions.

John

Next time just pit and tell them to get out. Then go back out and try and enjoy the session. I don't deal with crap instructors.

Ha ha, can't do that.. I'm an instructed student.. can't go solo yet.. !

I just signed up for my first DE event this morning and I hope I don't run into an instructor like that! I'm now very interested to see what kind of experiance I run into. Is it typical for students to provide feedback on the quality of the instruction that they get?

I have completed the PCA national certification and what they focus on is appropiate comunication with your student so you need to know a little about him and what does he do in real life ( I am a pvt individual and do not like people asking me what I do) but the purpose was to figure out a good way to comunicate...it is different when talking to an executive vs say a college student...you get the idea...cursing was frowned upon and if we did not click with the student (your case) then we should have had a reassignment....the same goes for the paying student...I suggest you contact the chief instructor of that region and forward your experience to him...
We all had bad instructors but no bad language is accepted here...sorry for your wasted weekend...The Glen is an AWESOME track at speed..

Like I said, I had 7 great DE days prior to this one.. I had no problem at all, so maybe I just took things for granted.. ha!

I do appreciate the fact that instructors are all volunteers so I'm thankful that they are doing this. So thank you to all instructors out there.. !

Your instructor's tone and use of foul language as you describe it are unprofessional and counterproductive in my opinion. If you were able to remain polite and receptive to learning in that situation then all the better for you. The instructor shouldn't have their hand on your wheel without an invitation or an impending hazard.

Sounds like there was a breakdown in communication between you and the instructor. When this happens it's perfectly all right to ask for another instructor. In your shoes, I would start by asking myself what I could have done to make the most of the situation. You sound like a reasonable person and I'm sure you've already done this, but it never hurts to examine your own actions.

A spin is a serious and dangerous event. It's good fortune that you, your instructor, and your car were all unhurt. I've had a few off-track excursions myself and put a lot of thought into how I can avoid ever repeating the mistakes made in each situation. If you didn't have the benefit of a positive relationship with your instructor, at least you were given a very real lesson to carry forward in your learning experience.

I was at the Glen this past weekend too, it was beautiful with the exception of a spot of rain. I hope that you come back and find a great rapport with your next instructor.

All the regions I've ever done DE with ask the students to fill out an instructor evaluation; this may not apply everywhere. If you have any issue with your instructor bring it up with them politely, or ask for another instructor. By and large, the quality of the PCA instructors I've had over the years has been top-notch, and as a nationally trained instructor I can say that we are held to a high standard.

Everyone will agree that a good teacher/student match is essential for learning and for the fun of being on the track in the first place. Every person learns differently, and some instructors only know how to teach one way. The match is not always made in heaven.

I know that I like to know the reason why, not just when. The fact that someone has the driving skill and track time under their belt, and has risen to the level of instructor does not make them a natural teacher. Teaching is a skill which can and needs to be developped.

I had 4 instructors before I was signed off. Some had simple instructions like "turn in, on the gas, brake". That was kinda boring and not making me progress further. At times it was demotivating. Others taked about about pace, slip angles, vision... and because I was progressing faster, there were a lot of "yeah!!" and high fives.

The funniest was one instructor who said, "you did not make my butt pucker once, good run!"

Bottom line is you are paying to become a better driver, and to have fun.

I guess after the first session, the idea of changing instructor did cross my mind, but I guess I just thought maybe it was me who didn't get it, so as I get better in the next session, it would get better.. on hindsight, it might be better for the both of us if we had a switch. So that's something I will keep in mind. I guess I just didn't want to be rude, etc.

At the end of the day, after all said and done, he did comment on how I had such a good attitude toward learning. Ha!

I guess maybe I just shouldn't be taking thing too personally. But it was really frustrating when I was taught in a way that I couldn't process. And I'm sure it was frustrating for him too. So he started to shut down (i.e., got angry, and just said "wrong", "wrong", "wrong", "wrong", "f-ed up", "f-ed up") and then I got affected by that and I can't get anything right.. cause and effect.. but I couldn't break the cycle (until I got a ride, I guess that's the a good way for me to learn)..

Usually I find myself being able to learn if the instructor talk to me through the course.. something like "I use this tree as a reference point for xxx", "put the front left wheel on this patch", "turn in when the painted line change color" or something like that.. I guess I'm just not a good instinctive driver. While my instructor is probably a good driver in that way, so he doesn't feel the need to talk about that kind of stuff.