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Have you ever had a bad instructor experience before?!

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Old 06-21-2010, 06:03 PM
  #16  
Porsche917K
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Don't take it personally. Every once in a while I would get an instructor that either I didn't mesh with on a communication level or that I didn't feel was helping me learn.

I would say that after 8 DE's you might be ready to go out on your own for a session or two. IMO you can really focus quite a bit better if you are alone and not trying to constantly follow instruction. As I did more DE's I really learned quickest by riding with a skilled driver, then getting immediately in my car and going out.
Old 06-21-2010, 06:06 PM
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cfjan
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I hope to do a few more days and get signed off.. but I probably learn in a way similar to you.. I found myself learning the best by riding the passenger seat while the instructor giving me a commentary on what he is doing.. and point out which reference points that he uses.

Like I said, maybe my instructor this past weekend was just a really good at driving w/ instinct, so he doesn't need those markers.. so since he doesn't use it, so maybe that's why he doesn't use that to teach me. Not sure..

Last edited by cfjan; 06-21-2010 at 08:22 PM.
Old 06-21-2010, 06:57 PM
  #18  
TRAKCAR
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he got really angry.. basically, instead of saying something constructive, I get screamed at "you f-ed up", "f-ed up again", "wrong" (but nothing else.. ha!
No one should have to put up with any of that..
Even if you are doing everything wrong, with the wrong attitude (Not saying that at all.) You should be going into the Pit to have a talk respectfully.

I've had fantastic students and horrible ones, but I always start off by saying that I am there that day to make sure he is safe, will drive his car home and that he has fun. In that order.

I always invite their input, some people can drive while being spoken too, some can't, some are good at verbalizing when they know they are doing something wrong, some don't. Some need a track pucture with explanation some don't.

Personalities don't always gel and not everyone learns the same way. Both instructor and student have to be patient and respectful. I think you got neither and should have asked for another instructor right away.
Old 06-21-2010, 07:07 PM
  #19  
cfjan
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That is probably my take-away this past weekend. As I mentioned, I have the type of personality that's not too aggressive.. I don't like conflict, don't want to **** people off, etc. So while asking for a switch did cross my mind, I just thought maybe it was just me who's not getting it and will get better in the next session.. (and I kept thinking that.. but it never did..)

I know a lady in my run group, after the first session, she knew the instructor wasn't for her, and she asked for a switch. The instructor wasn't too happy about that, told her something like, "well, you should have been in the green group anyway" and things like that. (I thought that's unnecessary..)

But you know what? She had a great rest of the weekend. So on hindsight, she made the right choice.. and I didn't.

Originally Posted by TRAKCAR
Personalities don't always gel and not everyone learns the same way. Both instructor and student have to be patient and respectful. I think you got neither and should have asked for another instructor right away.

I tried to talk and ask questions during the run, but we can't hear each other.. (obviously, I can hear the curse words from him.. but he couldn't hear from me for some reasons..) That was definitely one of the problems. (No radio)


Originally Posted by TRAKCAR

I always invite their input, some people can drive while being spoken too, some can't, some are good at verbalizing when they know they are doing something wrong, some don't. Some need a track pucture with explanation some don't.
Old 06-21-2010, 07:24 PM
  #20  
Arrccod
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My brother had a bad experience. On his 1st DE his instructor arrived late then complained about "Partying" to hard the night before and of the long drive to the track. The instructor was inconsistent with his instruction and ended up ruining a good time for my brother. Which inturn he has never went back to the track.

Being it was his 1st time he didn't know what to expect and thought that was the norm. After consulting with the me and our other friend (1st timers all) he too was waiting for instruction to get better. It never happened. As much as everyone says ask for a different instructor you don't want to be labeled a "Problem Case" from the get go.

Fourtunately I've been lucky to have all good instructors each one does have their own style. A few have gone way over the top and have handed me off to another instructor when they seen I need a higher level. As a student this is what you live for.

I've been prodding my brother to try it again....we'll just be more assertive this time.

Bill

Last edited by Arrccod; 06-21-2010 at 08:47 PM.
Old 06-21-2010, 07:35 PM
  #21  
cfjan
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I'm glad that it was not my first DE event, because it would probably turn me away from DE, like what it did to your brother.. like I said, I have had great experience w/ all my other events.. so I know that this is the exception, not the norm..
Old 06-21-2010, 07:48 PM
  #22  
Asquared
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My instructors have always been excellent, I've never had anyone tell me I F'd up, and I've done some F'd up things. Just a quick example, last year at Road America was my second track day ever (after a "Novice Day" at another track). In spite of EVERYONE putting the fear of god into us novices about "The Kink", on the second day I was feeling my oats a bit and I took the Kink a little hot. I knew it right away. The car was a little unsettled, but I made it through the turn. My instructor didn't say a word until the front straightaway, and all he said was, "You took the kink a little hot that lap. Please don't do that again when I'm in the car." (The next day, someone stuffed a GT3 into the wall after the kink and his car caught on fire. I happened to be in the control center at the track when it happened, so I watched the bad outcome, and I got religion pronto).

The first clue with your instructor should have been the seat belt thing. I'm still running stock belts (got to spread out the car spend, or else the wife punishes me by spending 10x on redecorating a room she just redecorated last year), and every instructor I've had let's out a dejected sigh when they realize they have to ride around a track with stock belts (and that's before they've seen me drive).
Old 06-21-2010, 07:54 PM
  #23  
AllanJ
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Sorry to hear about the bad instructor. He needs a refresher course in his instructor school. I hope your future instructors more than make up for him.

I've had about 18 instructors so far and have now hired a pro driving coach. Of those guys, only one was a bit loony but I still learned a couple key things from him.

@Porsche917K: One of your Oregon PCA instructors at PIR (guy who races an Elise) was fantastic! Can't remember his name, but he was great. I learned a bunch from him.

Cheers,
Old 06-21-2010, 08:06 PM
  #24  
cfjan
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David Murry was at the event, doing the classroom, as well as answering any questions.. now that's a friendly guy who can explain things really well. That guy makes a good instructor for sure!
Old 06-21-2010, 08:37 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by cfjan
I know this is not GT3 specific, but since I hang around here most, I figured that I'd post it here. I know many of you are actually instructors so the days of in Green / Yellow are long gone, but I'm curious if you ever had a bad instructor experience?

A little background, only started doing DE this year so I'm definitely a beginner. Got moved up from Green to Yellow last event and ran as Yellow for the first time this past weekend at Watkins Glen. I heard a lot about the track and was looking forward to it very much. This was my 8th DE days (since April, when I started doing DE).

In my prior 7 DEs, I have found the PCA instructors to be great. They all have different style. Some are more hardcore and push me harder (the instructor who signed me off to Yellow races a Cup car and when he was happy about my line, he would tell me to use less brake, carry more speed, etc, etc.) and some are more relax, don't push you as hard, but definitely get the idea across on where you should be, what reference point to look at, etc. So I have had most positive experience doing DEs. Until this past weekend....

So I started out the weekend by finding my instructor in the garage. Greet, introduce myself, explain my experience.. So when it was time for the first
Shouldn't that be to meet at a designated place/time?

session, he opened the door, and saw I have seats and harness, he asked me if I have the normal seat belt. (I always thought safety is good?) I figured
Some instructors are cautious -- they think the three-point is probably secure while some harnesses are poorly installed and might fail. It's time-consuming to work in an "easy breezy" tech situation and there's no time to personally check for backing plates, welds, belt dates, seat dates, weaving through the adjustment buckles, etc. And a harness might motivate the driver to exceed limits.

that we will take it easy (totally fine w/ me, since it was my first time out there), maybe that's why. He sat directly onto the camlock and harness (they were buckled in) and then try to do the 3 point belt. He then realize that it is not very comfortable (because he is sitting on the camlock, lap belts, etc.) so he got up and undo those, and then finally seat himself. I asked him if he has the radio (for talking / instruction) because I didn't see it. He said, no, his is broken. Oh well.. Can't be that bad, I figured. Off we went.
In a word:fail. Failing to take time to plan ahead before even putting your rump in the seat is a fail. Not having an intercom is a fail. Plan ahead -- borrow a unit or brief the student on hand signals.

Going around the course, he wanted me to go as slow as possible. I'm okay w/ that, because it is important to know the line. The problem is, he has a difficult time communicating that to me. Often time, it is just comment like "in, in, in, in". And that is all okay, really, except if I get it wrong (turn in too quickly, too late, cause I don't know the course.. and I don't know if his # of "in" is corresponding the urgency of turning in?), he got really angry.. basically, instead of saying something constructive, I get screamed at "you f-ed up", "f-ed up again", "wrong" (but nothing else.. ha! Not like, "if you see the pavement change color, that's where you should turn in" or something in that nature that I can use).. Oh, and a lot of "slow the f#$% down" through out the day. (and seriously, I wasn't going fast.. not like I was moving around or drifting at the corners, not even close) I also saw him bracing himself using the door handle and the front dash. And I was thinking, why wouldn't you want to use the harness?? Strange..
Infinite fail -- as an instructor and in life! Who unhooks the F-bomb bunker busters to a complete stranger? Getting "angry" on the track is a fail.

So after the 1st session, I know I am having problem w/ the line. (still don't know what's the line..) I took the track map and brought it to my instructor, and ask him about some corner. He looked at it and said, no use to look at the map, since you can't be thinking about these when you are driving, or you will mess up, you need to concentrate on the corner that you are driving. That's fine, but I really was just trying to learn the track, hoping that he can point out some reference points for me. Nope.

So I asked him if he can take me out for a few laps, that would be useful. I have always found that to be useful to see how it is done, then I can see where I should be. Nope.

I said, I'm not a fast learner. Maybe we can concentrate on a couple of corners to make sure I know it really well. He said, just drive....

Hmm.. so we went out.. now at least I know some corners, I was going a little bit quicker. (Again, tires not chirping, and I only have PS-2, ha! Still very safe pace) and right away, it was "slow the f%$^ down". I totally know that the line is most critical, but it is difficult to get a feel when you are doing 30mph. A few times, cause we were going so slow (I'm not joking), I accelerated toward the apex and my instructor became furious, said how what I did was "amateur-ish", "that is a green run group driver", etc. And that happened a couple of times, because we don't have radio, so when he said "no", I thought he said "go", and of course, he got really angry and threw a lot of f-bombs my way... In one instance, he became quiet, and then came back like 30 seconds later, he said, "you know why I was quiet? because you kept on f-ing it up, so I am just gonna shut up".. not making any of these up.
Passive-aggressive fail?

I also got a lot of criticism for unwinding too much. Because we were going at a pace that's not too quick, when he said that I should go to the track out, you have to unwind more to go there. And when I did that, he said "you drove there, that's WRONG, who are you trying to impress? I am not impressed".. I was confused, cause I thought he wanted the line (to use the whole track) but if I don't unwind enough, then we don't get to the edge, then I'm not using the track, and I get yelled at. So I got really confused. So I got yelled at for it a few more times, telling me that "I drove there on purpose", "amateur-ish", "I'm not impressed"..

Some drivers came to me during our break and asked if something is wrong with the car, why I was giving everyone points by. (cause they have seen me at other events before) I just shake my head.. ha..

Anyway, so the next day, first session out, again, a lot of "you f-ed up".. (would be nice if I know what to do to correct it), for a series of
Next day?! What were you thinking?

1/2 laps, after a lot of "you f-ed up", he gave me like 5 or 6 corners in a row, just "wrong", "wrong", wrong", "wrong again", "wrong".. and "you are on your own". Anyway, let me tell you.. it is hard to concentrate when that's all you hear. (nothing except "wrong" or "you f-ed up") I just slowed the way down and circulate the track and hoping the weekend is over.

With only 1 session to go, I was wondering if anything I can do to help the learning, despite what is happening. So I said, look, I would really appreciate it if you can take me out on a ride, that would really help me a lot. So finally, before my last session of the weekend. We went out in his car. No radio, so I just observe on my own. I used the patches on the track as reference (like "it looks like his left wheel is close to this patch", "I need to start turning in when the patch changing color", etc)

So in the last session out, I was hitting those points okay. As a result, much less "you f-ed up" or "wrong" in the session. I did have an exciting end of the day, however. I was going a little too fast for one corner.. and I ended up in a spin. so thank god that nothing happened. We started drifting.. and all I heard was "oh ****, oh ****, oh ****" from my instructor.. (I was hoping someone would say, "stay on the gas" or "put both feet in"..) I wasn't going that fast, but more like panic.. So the "oh ****" spooked me and we ended up w/ a spin and 2 wheels were off the track. I did appreciate the fact that the first thing he said was "are you okay?" That was my first spin ever on track.

So we came into pit, talked to the marshal, and off we go again, and just took it easy.

Certainly, as a new guy, I'm in no position to criticize people's driving. And that's not what I am doing here. And for those who have met me, you would know that I don't drive over my head, my limit, and is usually very humble and willing to learn. But gosh, I think appropriate communication is so important.. I don't mind people criticize my driving (and other instructors do that) and I don't even mind the f-bombs, but you got to be able to tell me how to improve, how to correct the mistake, help the student to learn, (and every students are different too, I'm sure), etc. By telling me "wrong" (10x in a row, with no other words in between) or "you f-ed up" without telling me where the turning points and such when I was struggling to find the line, is simply not very constructive. If you are gonna be impatience and get all furious easily, maybe one should not instruct.

Anyway, that's a long story.. if you are still reading.. ha! So I am curious, am I the only one or some of you have had bad experience like this before?!
Forget this ***-clown. Write a polite, two-line email to the chief instructor apprising him or her of the conduct of this disgraceful bastard and let them handle the waste disposal.

About 20 years ago, I had a flight instructor substitute when my regular instructor took some leave. The stand-in was horrible. Just sat there and watched me make a radio mistake that I had to resolve with air traffic control while he sat there. Then I took a second leg out for a second exercise and he waited for me to get out of controlled space only to say "time's up, bring us in." I went to the chief flying instructor as soon as we were tied down, called in to cancel my search-and-rescue cancel and said "That guy is a waste of space. I may as well just log solo time. I'll wait for my instructor to come off leave." The CFI looked up, said something like "Noted" and we, I think, found an understanding after that day.
Old 06-21-2010, 08:39 PM
  #26  
Porsche917K
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Originally Posted by AllanJ
@Porsche917K: One of your Oregon PCA instructors at PIR (guy who races an Elise) was fantastic! Can't remember his name, but he was great. I learned a bunch from him.
If you are talking about a middle aged Southern guy, that's probably Will Stevens. Excellent instructor! He can really communicate what you are doing right and wrong and tell you exactly how to improve.
Old 06-21-2010, 08:54 PM
  #27  
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I had the benefit of gracious and skilled instructors/mentors and felt it was my obligation to continue this level of excellence. I am very up front with my students before we get in the car that I am at the track for their benefit and I want to do everything possible to enhance that experience, even if it means a switch. Clearly defined expectations are the key and time spent chatting before gettting on the track are sometimes squandered by both sides. As a student you have the expectaton of a safe, informative, and fun session. You mentioned being signed-off which is cool but I would urge you to ask others for coachng and input. Most of the guys will gladly help.
Old 06-21-2010, 08:56 PM
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Here's an idea. Go out with this guy for one more session ... with a camera in the car and good mic. : )
Old 06-21-2010, 09:01 PM
  #29  
Larry Cable
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Originally Posted by Carrera GT
Here's an idea. Go out with this guy for one more session ... with a camera in the car and good mic. : )
I like it ...
Old 06-21-2010, 09:12 PM
  #30  
cfjan
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Like I said, I know I'm probably not the brightest student driver (no future racing star here..), but I am definitely there to learn and willing to put in the effort. (and I definitely listen..) So while I'm sure I was at fault to some degree (i.e., can't learn from him quick enough so he got mad.. but seriously, no reason to get mad after session #1 and #2, having never been to the track prior), but that's not because I didn't listen.. it was just that the style of his teaching didn't work for me. When I asked for a ride after the 1st session, I was refused. (I asked because I benefited from that in previous track event, and I know I learn a great deal that way..)

Also, when you kept being put down, I found that I lost concentration there as well.. I mean, I don't even mind the curse words.. (a guy to a guy, no biggie.. whatever) But it should be part of a constructive sentence.. i.e., "you f-ed up here, next lap, you should look for xxx so you turn in there, and tighten to xxx spot, that should help you line up your car" etc., instead of just at every corner just someone screaming at you "wrong", "wrong again", "wrong".. I thought about pulling into the pit, but then I didn't want to **** him off, so I just continued to circulate. But I guess that's pissed him off more.

I remember at one session, after pulled in, he asked me why I wasn't shifting. I said, "I thought you you told me to go slow, so I just left it in 4th", and he just went "oh, right.."

Anyway, like I said, I know it is a volunteer job. So I appreciate people who do this, absolutely. I just think that if a dumb student (like me) would get you so fired up, then why not just run in the black group? Then you don't have to deal w/ teaching and keep the blood pressure low.


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