OldGuy

I think the 9A1 is coming soon. I was amazed at how good it is. Blown away actually. I remember driving the first 996 motor after the 993 and how disappointed I was. But this motor completely caught me off guard.
I would have agreed with you on the GT1 motor. I thought Porsche would stay with that motor till they were DEAD serious about the 9A1. But when the TT came out with the 9A1, that showed Porsche's hand
a little bit. I dont know how soon but soon I think it is. I would be VERY nervous about pissing off the Turbo crowd. Thats one loyal group of customers. Maybe more so (I am guessing) than the GT crowd.
So for Porsche to move that way shows me something. The motor has 40% less parts. Thats a maintenance advantage. Plus for Porsche to basically slap two turbos on it for the TT is amazing confidence in the motor( I dont know that, its just what I have heard, anyone have a website explaining the TT 9A1 motor?)

Larry Cable

I think it's relatively easier to turbocharge an engine and maintain reliability etc
it's a relatively harder task to achieve the same in naturally aspirated, I am still betting the GT3's will use the GT1 block until such time as a Cup, R, or RSR
leads the way with a 9A1 based engine... I could be wrong of course but
Porsche needs to find a significant amount of BHP out of the A91 in order to
use it in a GT3 or they risk losing the significant up-sell market ... no way I am
trading a 2010 GT3 with 435bhp for a 201x GT3 with a A91 engine with the
same or lesser performance

So there are approx 3 options:

- go to the 4.0(3.9L) R, RSR GT1 engine
- figure out how to make 435bhp or more from the 9A1
- dilute, redefine or terminate the GT3 "brand" (Carerra 2CS perhaps)

GT3

Fixed

Larry Cable

thinking "Dr Evil" laughs ...

Alan Smithee

I don't see '1' as an option. If the GT1 is to continue, it must be more efficient to survive, not more powerful. If anything, it would carry on with minor changes in the new, lighter platform in order to maintain or improve the performance envelope. But it is an old, heavy, expensive design without much potential remaining for a streetable car. As i said previously, I believe it has run its course.

As for '2', you don't give Porsche much credit...don't you think they thought beyond 2010 when they developed the new engine family that debuted last year? Like the M96/M97, it will likely have at least a 10 year lifecycle. I'm sure they have not even begun to tap into its potential.

Again you don't give Porsche much credit in '3'...they are the masters of marketing, the GT3 is a halo car and moneymaker for the dealers and manufacturer. It isn't going anywhere, and they know better than to dilute it.

Larry Cable

you are at liberty to differ ... only time will tell.

GT3

The GT1 engines are extremely efficient....at making power( more than 100 whp per litter). What kind of efficiency are you talking about? No one who buys these cars is concerned with gas efficiency per say.... its a race engine, used for performance and spirited/track driving.

Porsche has made each newer Gen GT3 lighter and more powerful, format the 996 GT3 to the 997 GT3 to the 997.3 GT3, which is now the lightest and most powerful. And the GT3 customers could not be happier. Its what customers of other brand cars envy. While all other brand cars and making more power, they are also heavier, but not the GT3s....

And again, doesn't make sense.....

They moved from a 996 GT3 3.6 GT1 380 HP to the 997 GT3 3.6 GT1 415 HP to the 997.2 GT3/RS 3.8 GT1 435/450 HP. And the cars have become lighter and lighter each time.... My stock 997.2 GT3 was putting down 395 whp SAE, and I got it to 423 whp SAE on the same dyno with a couple of mods (95 degree weather) and over 35 whp gains in some parts over stock. If I can do that, Im sure Porsche has the resources to do better.... And my car is very streetable.

No one knows what the next gene (998) GT3 will bring, but I can assure you it will be lighter, more powerful, and handle better than the 997.2 GT3/RS, and retain the GT1 block, unless Porsche develops and uses another dry sump motor in their races. This is Porsche, not BMW, and not Audi. The only "efficiency" Porsche may do to their GT3s, is a street version of the GT3 R Hybrid, which is currently under testing in Europe.

BTW, my 997.2 GT3 weights 2965 lbs with half tank gas after the Akrapovic race exhaust was installed (-57 lbs).

Riz

The 9a1 engines don't produce as much hp per liter even though they have DFI, don't rev as high, don't have true dry sump, are not used in the race cars - sure sounds like a better engine to me.

SpeedGeek

If you have any doubt how good the 9A1 is, go drive the new TT. It's one of the most amazing and fastest cars I've ever driven. There's little doubt in my mind the 9A1 will eventually find its way to the GT2.

Regarding n/a applications, like the GT3, I suspect we'll see Ti rods like in the Metzger. The only remaining question is dry sump oiling for racing.

Unfortunately, I think Porsche must eventually offer PDK on their GT cars. They have developed PDK only for the 9A1, not Metzger. So I think it's inevitable the 9A1 will make it to the GT cars.

I don't understand why people think the current generation of GT3s are the last "real" ones (it's always that way, isn't it?). The Metzger engine is old now. As brilliant as it is, technology moves ahead. The 9A1 is, as yet, untested, but having driven the new TT I'm convinced.

I'm a die-hard Metzger fan, but I have no problem with a new engine if it's better still. I have a bigger problem with PDK in the GT cars because that will be the death knell for manual.

I guess without a crystal ball we're going to have to wait and see...

911rox

This same discussion raged in the turbo forum also. TB993tt may wish to chime in but he had information suggesting that the factory was having trouble building reliable 9A1 units at the 570hp mark... Engines suffering major failures. The GT2RS is GT1 based and rightly so.

I haven't even seen aftermarket tuners push substantial hp figures out of a 9A1 engine reliably yet and they have been in existance for 18 months+.

Porsche is interested in $, the turbo crowd of recent years are largely buyers with $$$ and less knowledge about cars. It is easy to pull one over on them. Frankly, most will never visit the track more than once or twice and frankly even a Toyota could survive that flogging once or twice.

The GT crowd are generally more purists and will often regularly flog their cars... Reliability is critical in the GT market.

I am not against technology, progress and innovation but when I see a 9A1 in a Porsche race car, I will be convinced that it is the best option for a GT car...

Boxster Coupe GTS

GT1 engine will live on in future Porsche GT cars...

To put this dicussion into context -- the main benefit of the 9A1 engine is that it is significantly cheaper to produce, hence higher profit margins for the manufacturer. The DFI system also helps with an improvement in fuel consumption. For the standard 997.2, the 9A1 engine is clearly a relative improvement over the previous wet-sump motor, which started life back in the first water-cooled 996 Carrera.

In the 997.2 Turbo, the performance improvements (acceleration times) primarily relate to the combination of the PDK gearbox with a forced-induction Turbo engine (minimal loss in boost pressure between changes), along with the improved 4WD system and tyres.

Let's not forget, the GT3 and GT3 RS are developed by the Porsche Motorsport team, driven by Andreas Preuninger, alongside the GT3 Cup cars. The GT3 and GT3 RS are used to homologate Porsche's GT3-based racing cars.

Here are a few comments from the interview of Andreas Preuninger by Chris Harris at the launch of the GT3 -- which were also repeated at the GT3 RS launch event...







...thanks to Chris Harris for the original Andreas Preuninger interview...

eab3@bellsouth.net

These two cars are designed for different applications and hence their engines have a different focus. The GT3 is a racing car that can be plated and/or raced. The Turbo is a street hotrod. It's apples and oranges. The comment regarding the origins of the respective engines, i.e., Motorsports vs. factory says it all. Both engines are remarkable. One is not "better" than the other. Each is designed for its application.

Boxster Coupe GTS

Porsche 991 GT3 / RS engine preview...

A preview of the 2012 Porsche 991 GT3 / RS engine specification...

The Porsche 991 GT3 features a four-litre six-cylinder boxer engine delivering 480 hp (353 kW).
In developing the 991 GT3, the emphasis was placed on increased performance, driveability and handling.
A six-speed sequential gearbox transmits the power to the rear axle.

The development of the Porsche 991 GT3 is based on the Porsche 911 GT3 R racing car, using the extra-wide body and chassis.
Thanks to a 0.2-litre increase in engine capacity, the 991 GT3 delivers 30 hp more than the previous GT3 RS model.

Porsche 991 GT3 / RS engine specification:

Porsche GT1-derived motorsport engine
Six-cylinder boxer configuration, water-cooled
3996cc naturally aspirated
Four-valve technology
Dry sump lubrication
Stroke: 80.4 mm
Bore: 102.7 mm
Max. power: 353 kW (480 hp)
Required fuel quality: 98 octane, unleaded
Multi-point fuel injection (sequential)
Bosch MS 4.0 electronic engine management
E-Gas with 'throttle-blip' function
Race exhaust system with pre and final silencer
Twin-branched muffler with centered exhaust pipes



Porsche also intends to offer a Hybrid derivative of the 991 GT3, inspired by the award winning Porsche 911 GT3 R Hybrid.









Porsche-911-GT3-Hybrid_spy-pics

Porsche press release: "The 911 GT3 R"



Developed for racing series based on the international FIA GT3 regulations, the stunning 911 GT3 R succeeds the 911 GT3 Cup S and is delivered to customers ready-to-race. The starting point in developing the GT3 R was the latest 3.8-litre Porsche 911 GT3 Cup, which will compete in the 2010 Porsche Mobil 1 Supercup supporting selected Formula One races. However, the GT3 R - which weighs just 1,200 kg (2,646 lb) - has a larger 4.0-litre six-cylinder 'boxer' engine delivering 480 bhp and other technical developments designed to improve the performance of the car further still.

For example, an anti-lock braking system, traction control and an electronic throttle with 'blip' function on gearbox down-changes make it much easier for drivers to get used to the GT3 R race car than the prior Cup S model, with the consequence that the new car is also more appropriate for the ambitious amateur racing driver rather than purely experienced professionals. The main focus with this new car was to deliver even better driveability and easier handling.

Additional flared wheel arches front and rear emphasise the purposeful, wide track of the GT3 R. And like all second generation versions of the 911, the new 911 GT3 R also comes with striking LED rear light clusters. For optimal aerodynamic performance, the underbody of the car is completely covered and features a rear diffuser and, compared to the prior Cup S model, the range of adjustment on the rear wing has been increased.

The highly-developed suspension can also be adjusted extensively; at the front are height-adjustable MacPherson struts with variable SACHS two-way shock absorbers and double coil springs (main and auxiliary). At the rear, the GT3 R features a rigidly mounted sub-frame with a height-adjustable multi-arm axle together with adjustable SACHS two-way shock absorbers and double coil springs.

"Since we announced our intention to launch the 911 GT3 R, demand has been huge," said Uwe Brettel, Head of Motorsport Sales. "The number of GT3 R vehicles we had planned for 2010 is almost sold out."

As the newest Porsche race car, the 911 GT3 R has an incredible provenance. In 2009, the ultimate racing Porsche 911 – the GT3 RSR - won the GT2 Drivers’ title in the FIA GT Championship, the GT2 title in the American Le Mans Series and also in the Le Mans Series of endurance races, and also triumphed in the gruelling 24 Hours of the Nurburgring race.

Like the 911 GT3 Cup and 911 GT3 RSR, the Porsche 911 GT3 R is designed and built by the Porsche Motorsport Department at the company’s Weissach Development Centre.





Porsche-911-GT3-R_Technical-Specifications

-- End --

TB993tt

Seems Porsche have finally pulled it off, selling cheap consumer engines for race quality prices.....
All Porsche flat sixes were race grade "GT1" until the Boxster engine came along - now it seems people accept the inferior stuff and are still prepared to make Porsche the highest margin auto maker as they yearn to be part of the brand however diluted.....

C.J. Ichiban

the real reason why the new TT cars are so fast is as was pointed out above...the PDK and the variable turbo vane programming. it allows for constantly less and less lag and more abrupt launches. the 9A1 engine isn't build to rev as high as the GT1 engine, so it works fine in the turbos. The gt1 engine really needs revs in NA form...and that's why we like our GT3 cars...the high revving! if the 9a1 were the immediate "best ever" then clearly they'd use it in the GT2RS...620 warrantied HP is no joke. I'm sure eventually they're going to come up with something even better than the GT1 engine- but let's not totally forget what's going on right now...

each application of the porsche engineering and marketing directives is aimed very specifically at certain types of buyers and specific budgets. that's why we have 21 different model types or whatever ridiculous # it is. The car side of the company is a profit monster- (the mergers and acquisitions side of things...well not so much! haha) and the race cars are very profitable for them as well. There is not a limit on how many cup cars they will build- if they got 200 orders a year they'd build 200. or 225, at the rate they overbuilt the CGT and other cars.

technology marches on, and "purists" will always love older, simpler technology. the 993, the 964, the 911 3.2 can all be considered "the last of...." one is the 'last of the aircooled', another is the last of the "real handbuilt cars" and the other one is the last of the "torsion bar". hell before that you could get into whatever description opinion you want.

all of the cars they produce with over 380hp these days are really friggin fast. but- they're all still street cars...with street car compromises. some cars are better for daily use, some are better for dragging from 5mph to 150 on an airstrip. some are better for generating lateral G's in the dry on the track.

no car will ever roll out of stuttgart that is able to do everything we want it, AND pass CAFE regs or whatever without SERIOUS TECHNOLOGY IMPROVEMENT from right now. or from 3 years ago.

I'd really love a porsche engine that revs to 9500rpm redlines...who knows? in 10 years will the gt3 type car have a high revving v8 like an F430 or a 458? will it have a superlight carbon frame like a CGT? will it have twin turbos? we don't own the company and are therefore stuck waiting. and waiting.

rant over.