a little ceramic pccb question...
05-23-2010, 03:31 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away....
Posts: 17,107
Likes: 0
Received 258 Likes
on
172 Posts
just so im clear (in case i ever buy a 2010 RS):
if it has RED Calipers, then it is harder to upgrade to an alternate/after market brake set-up whereas PCCB calipers can be easily swapped to other brake systems?
If so, why is this? I dont recall the 997.1 having this issue?
if it has RED Calipers, then it is harder to upgrade to an alternate/after market brake set-up whereas PCCB calipers can be easily swapped to other brake systems?
If so, why is this? I dont recall the 997.1 having this issue?
05-23-2010, 03:37 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Here's another first hand experience with PCCBs...
- replaced my PCCBs after 30k miles and 70 track days at a cost of $16k.
- they would have lasted a lot longer if I ad not f'cuked up and noticed that the left rear inside pad had worn down to the backing plate. That killed the rotor.
- use OEM pads (not Green)
- replace when worn down to 5mm
- put in fresh SRF at beginning of season
If it wasn't for that aforementioned screwup...I think I would have gotten another 10k miles out of these rotors.
Will absolutely NOT go steels!
- replaced my PCCBs after 30k miles and 70 track days at a cost of $16k.
- they would have lasted a lot longer if I ad not f'cuked up and noticed that the left rear inside pad had worn down to the backing plate. That killed the rotor.
- use OEM pads (not Green)
- replace when worn down to 5mm
- put in fresh SRF at beginning of season
If it wasn't for that aforementioned screwup...I think I would have gotten another 10k miles out of these rotors.
Will absolutely NOT go steels!
05-23-2010, 05:55 PM
#19
Intermediate
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How long is your track session? in Socal a typical track session is 15-20 minutes, and part of the session is a warm up, so you're lucky if you get 15 minutes of heavy track use, that should put you somewhere at 11 hours of track use, still early on the life span for PCCB.
05-23-2010, 06:10 PM
#20
Intermediate
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great post. I appreciate the trail blazing.
1:37 in a GT2 (that's a 996?) on Hooters is pretty decent motoring.
Questions:
What bed-in process do you use for the pads?
What's the cheapest source for Porsche Motorsport supplied P50 Greens; and for Hoosiers?
I'm in the Bay Area and try to make it to Laguna and Sears as often as possible.
Next time we're both at the same place, you're welcome to take a ride in the new RS to see how the GT2 compares.
Thanks!
1:37 in a GT2 (that's a 996?) on Hooters is pretty decent motoring.
Questions:
What bed-in process do you use for the pads?
What's the cheapest source for Porsche Motorsport supplied P50 Greens; and for Hoosiers?
I'm in the Bay Area and try to make it to Laguna and Sears as often as possible.
Next time we're both at the same place, you're welcome to take a ride in the new RS to see how the GT2 compares.
Thanks!
P.M. me if you are going to be at Laguna.... I will be there on May 31st if you want to stop by..
Yes.. 996 GT2 with JRZ's..
Bed in is as per Pagid's instructions.. 5 runs, braking from 90 -50 mph at decent but not hard pedal pressure, back to back, followed by braking from 110 mph to 50 mph with hard pressure, but not at lockup or getting the ABS on. WARNING!!! The pads sometimes break in at different rates and so you can find that one end or side of the Car will be gripping really hard, but the pads that haven't broken in are NOT gripping.. you can get a bit of a fright, because the Car can get a bit sideways on you
I buy from Craig at Rennstore
37's are not too bad considering I am pretty new to the Car.. It's a completely different driving style from my Corvette ZO6 (my last Car), or my heavily modded 944 Turbo with full Cup suspension on it.
My GT2 has been tweaked and fiddled with to get the suspension settings to my liking.. We are almost there.. I have found that it likes a VERY low ride height in the front (105mm), with 115mm in rear and it LOVES some toe-out.. I had tried toe-in and zero toe, but my toe-out settings have helped immensely in terms of turn-in and directional change being more "instant". -2.8 Camber in front, -2.3 in rear, 1/32nd toe-out in front, 1/16th toe-in at the rear.. caster is set to 7.8 degrees (it had gone to 8.3 and that was too much and causing slight rubbing on the front fender liners on turning.
Compared to my ZO6 or 944, the GT2 seems VERY sensitive to slight changes, so it's been a lot of trial and error, talking to people who set up these Cars or GT3 RS's and see a lot of them. There's a guy called Mike Kelley who was instrumental in helping me with a good base starting point that I have been slowly refining to MY specific driving style.
I'd love to get a ride in your Car.. I can take you out in mine also... It will be interesting to see if they feel similar, or utterly different...
Cheers..
05-23-2010, 07:11 PM
#21
P.M. me if you are going to be at Laguna.... I will be there on May 31st if you want to stop by..
Yes.. 996 GT2 with JRZ's..
Bed in is as per Pagid's instructions.. 5 runs, braking from 90 -50 mph at decent but not hard pedal pressure, back to back, followed by braking from 110 mph to 50 mph with hard pressure, but not at lockup or getting the ABS on. WARNING!!! The pads sometimes break in at different rates and so you can find that one end or side of the Car will be gripping really hard, but the pads that haven't broken in are NOT gripping.. you can get a bit of a fright, because the Car can get a bit sideways on you
I buy from Craig at Rennstore
37's are not too bad considering I am pretty new to the Car.. It's a completely different driving style from my Corvette ZO6 (my last Car), or my heavily modded 944 Turbo with full Cup suspension on it.
My GT2 has been tweaked and fiddled with to get the suspension settings to my liking.. We are almost there.. I have found that it likes a VERY low ride height in the front (105mm), with 115mm in rear and it LOVES some toe-out.. I had tried toe-in and zero toe, but my toe-out settings have helped immensely in terms of turn-in and directional change being more "instant". -2.8 Camber in front, -2.3 in rear, 1/32nd toe-out in front, 1/16th toe-in at the rear.. caster is set to 7.8 degrees (it had gone to 8.3 and that was too much and causing slight rubbing on the front fender liners on turning.
Compared to my ZO6 or 944, the GT2 seems VERY sensitive to slight changes, so it's been a lot of trial and error, talking to people who set up these Cars or GT3 RS's and see a lot of them. There's a guy called Mike Kelley who was instrumental in helping me with a good base starting point that I have been slowly refining to MY specific driving style.
I'd love to get a ride in your Car.. I can take you out in mine also... It will be interesting to see if they feel similar, or utterly different...
Cheers..
Yes.. 996 GT2 with JRZ's..
Bed in is as per Pagid's instructions.. 5 runs, braking from 90 -50 mph at decent but not hard pedal pressure, back to back, followed by braking from 110 mph to 50 mph with hard pressure, but not at lockup or getting the ABS on. WARNING!!! The pads sometimes break in at different rates and so you can find that one end or side of the Car will be gripping really hard, but the pads that haven't broken in are NOT gripping.. you can get a bit of a fright, because the Car can get a bit sideways on you
I buy from Craig at Rennstore
37's are not too bad considering I am pretty new to the Car.. It's a completely different driving style from my Corvette ZO6 (my last Car), or my heavily modded 944 Turbo with full Cup suspension on it.
My GT2 has been tweaked and fiddled with to get the suspension settings to my liking.. We are almost there.. I have found that it likes a VERY low ride height in the front (105mm), with 115mm in rear and it LOVES some toe-out.. I had tried toe-in and zero toe, but my toe-out settings have helped immensely in terms of turn-in and directional change being more "instant". -2.8 Camber in front, -2.3 in rear, 1/32nd toe-out in front, 1/16th toe-in at the rear.. caster is set to 7.8 degrees (it had gone to 8.3 and that was too much and causing slight rubbing on the front fender liners on turning.
Compared to my ZO6 or 944, the GT2 seems VERY sensitive to slight changes, so it's been a lot of trial and error, talking to people who set up these Cars or GT3 RS's and see a lot of them. There's a guy called Mike Kelley who was instrumental in helping me with a good base starting point that I have been slowly refining to MY specific driving style.
I'd love to get a ride in your Car.. I can take you out in mine also... It will be interesting to see if they feel similar, or utterly different...
Cheers..
Interesting observations. I'd encourage other new RS track drivers to experiment with toe-out, I think it might be a missing ingredient.
For me, ride height is a matter of getting the bump steer out of the control arms. You can "cook" that recipe with different hardware on the steering arms, but for the most part, I think the car needs to be in the mid point of the suspension travel, meaning the lower arms are horizontal.
The RS isn't too sensitive simply because it's a little too compliant. As soon as any adds traction with tires or changes springs, they'll have a can of worms -- better to let some of the "race" team based companies sort it out and deliver complete solutions (dampers, springs, sways, bushings, hardware, settings) than tinker (though of course, the tinkering can be half the fun.) It will be interesting to find what's do-able on the new RS without too much surgery. I'm guessing lighter wheels and tires, urethane bushings, heim joints and maybe that transmission mount someone advertised here. The car already has such high apex speeds, I'm more interested in getting it settle and taking the compliance out of the running gear. I really like the spring and damper rates. I can't tell it's PASM on "normal" or on "sport" ... once I get a proper seat and harness in, I'm sure I'll be back to a love-hate with PASM. : )
Happy to take some laps in both. Even from the GT2, you'll be astonished at the power in the new RS. Take a couple of hundred pounds out of its fat hide and it would be awesome. Definitely needs a full cage before I'm going any quicker in it.
05-23-2010, 09:16 PM
#22
Intermediate
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting observations. I'd encourage other new RS track drivers to experiment with toe-out, I think it might be a missing ingredient.
For me, ride height is a matter of getting the bump steer out of the control arms. You can "cook" that recipe with different hardware on the steering arms, but for the most part, I think the car needs to be in the mid point of the suspension travel, meaning the lower arms are horizontal.
The RS isn't too sensitive simply because it's a little too compliant. As soon as any adds traction with tires or changes springs, they'll have a can of worms -- better to let some of the "race" team based companies sort it out and deliver complete solutions (dampers, springs, sways, bushings, hardware, settings) than tinker (though of course, the tinkering can be half the fun.) It will be interesting to find what's do-able on the new RS without too much surgery. I'm guessing lighter wheels and tires, urethane bushings, heim joints and maybe that transmission mount someone advertised here. The car already has such high apex speeds, I'm more interested in getting it settle and taking the compliance out of the running gear. I really like the spring and damper rates. I can't tell it's PASM on "normal" or on "sport" ... once I get a proper seat and harness in, I'm sure I'll be back to a love-hate with PASM. : )
Happy to take some laps in both. Even from the GT2, you'll be astonished at the power in the new RS. Take a couple of hundred pounds out of its fat hide and it would be awesome. Definitely needs a full cage before I'm going any quicker in it.
For me, ride height is a matter of getting the bump steer out of the control arms. You can "cook" that recipe with different hardware on the steering arms, but for the most part, I think the car needs to be in the mid point of the suspension travel, meaning the lower arms are horizontal.
The RS isn't too sensitive simply because it's a little too compliant. As soon as any adds traction with tires or changes springs, they'll have a can of worms -- better to let some of the "race" team based companies sort it out and deliver complete solutions (dampers, springs, sways, bushings, hardware, settings) than tinker (though of course, the tinkering can be half the fun.) It will be interesting to find what's do-able on the new RS without too much surgery. I'm guessing lighter wheels and tires, urethane bushings, heim joints and maybe that transmission mount someone advertised here. The car already has such high apex speeds, I'm more interested in getting it settle and taking the compliance out of the running gear. I really like the spring and damper rates. I can't tell it's PASM on "normal" or on "sport" ... once I get a proper seat and harness in, I'm sure I'll be back to a love-hate with PASM. : )
Happy to take some laps in both. Even from the GT2, you'll be astonished at the power in the new RS. Take a couple of hundred pounds out of its fat hide and it would be awesome. Definitely needs a full cage before I'm going any quicker in it.
Triple Adjustable JRZ's with quick disconnects, Monoballs front and rear, GT3 RSR swaybars from TRG, Eibach Pro springs 600 lbs front 800 lbs rear, Eisenlohr Racing adjustable Toe links, Adjustable Forked Drag Links, TRG adjustable control arms front and rear, TRG Drop links, Porsche Factory GT3RS Track Rods, TRG adjustable front Caster links, delrin bushings...,etc, etc. PLUS O.Z. Alleggerita wheels in stock sizes with Hoosier R6's, 245/35-18, 315/30-18. The control arms have eccentrically adjustable bushings, so I can keep them parallel even with my ride height. I was talking to some of the Porsche engineers for a few of the ALMS Race teams yesterday and they will run their Cup Cars as low as 85mm front and 105mm rear!!!!
Once I have the suspension perfect (I'm VERY close right now), it's on to some power upgrades... Billet compressor wheel upgrade to my existing K24's, 72 lb injectors, Sachs stage 3 clutch, Tony at EPL tune. 4" intercoolers... That will be IT.. The Car will be done at that point.
05-23-2010, 09:31 PM
#23
I should have posted ALL my suspension mods:
Triple Adjustable JRZ's with quick disconnects, Monoballs front and rear, GT3 RSR swaybars from TRG, Eibach Pro springs 600 lbs front 800 lbs rear, Eisenlohr Racing adjustable Toe links, Adjustable Forked Drag Links, TRG adjustable control arms front and rear, TRG Drop links, Porsche Factory GT3RS Track Rods, TRG adjustable front Caster links, delrin bushings...,etc, etc.
Triple Adjustable JRZ's with quick disconnects, Monoballs front and rear, GT3 RSR swaybars from TRG, Eibach Pro springs 600 lbs front 800 lbs rear, Eisenlohr Racing adjustable Toe links, Adjustable Forked Drag Links, TRG adjustable control arms front and rear, TRG Drop links, Porsche Factory GT3RS Track Rods, TRG adjustable front Caster links, delrin bushings...,etc, etc.
05-24-2010, 01:14 AM
#25
Love my P50's from Craig. Don't feel like I am chewing through them like I do with the stock P40's. Got to get them hot to work though.
05-24-2010, 01:21 AM
#26
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Interesting observations. I'd encourage other new RS track drivers to experiment with toe-out, I think it might be a missing ingredient.
For me, ride height is a matter of getting the bump steer out of the control arms. You can "cook" that recipe with different hardware on the steering arms, but for the most part, I think the car needs to be in the mid point of the suspension travel, meaning the lower arms are horizontal.
The RS isn't too sensitive simply because it's a little too compliant. As soon as any adds traction with tires or changes springs, they'll have a can of worms -- better to let some of the "race" team based companies sort it out and deliver complete solutions (dampers, springs, sways, bushings, hardware, settings) than tinker (though of course, the tinkering can be half the fun.) It will be interesting to find what's do-able on the new RS without too much surgery. I'm guessing lighter wheels and tires, urethane bushings, heim joints and maybe that transmission mount someone advertised here. The car already has such high apex speeds, I'm more interested in getting it settle and taking the compliance out of the running gear. I really like the spring and damper rates. I can't tell it's PASM on "normal" or on "sport" ... once I get a proper seat and harness in, I'm sure I'll be back to a love-hate with PASM. : )
Happy to take some laps in both. Even from the GT2, you'll be astonished at the power in the new RS. Take a couple of hundred pounds out of its fat hide and it would be awesome. Definitely needs a full cage before I'm going any quicker in it.
For me, ride height is a matter of getting the bump steer out of the control arms. You can "cook" that recipe with different hardware on the steering arms, but for the most part, I think the car needs to be in the mid point of the suspension travel, meaning the lower arms are horizontal.
The RS isn't too sensitive simply because it's a little too compliant. As soon as any adds traction with tires or changes springs, they'll have a can of worms -- better to let some of the "race" team based companies sort it out and deliver complete solutions (dampers, springs, sways, bushings, hardware, settings) than tinker (though of course, the tinkering can be half the fun.) It will be interesting to find what's do-able on the new RS without too much surgery. I'm guessing lighter wheels and tires, urethane bushings, heim joints and maybe that transmission mount someone advertised here. The car already has such high apex speeds, I'm more interested in getting it settle and taking the compliance out of the running gear. I really like the spring and damper rates. I can't tell it's PASM on "normal" or on "sport" ... once I get a proper seat and harness in, I'm sure I'll be back to a love-hate with PASM. : )
Happy to take some laps in both. Even from the GT2, you'll be astonished at the power in the new RS. Take a couple of hundred pounds out of its fat hide and it would be awesome. Definitely needs a full cage before I'm going any quicker in it.
i did all that in two days....
missed you at BW. flying off riverside at 100 was ... FUN.
05-24-2010, 01:58 AM
#27
Intermediate
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
05-24-2010, 11:02 AM
#28
05-24-2010, 01:51 PM
#29
Intermediate
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There will be plenty of Porsche Drivers there to help you out with tips etc if you need them. Do you have an instructor assigned to you?
05-24-2010, 02:35 PM
#30
I requested an instructor to show me the line but do not know who it is? Are you a PCA instructor? Or with Trackmasters?
Will also be there the next day with HOD.