Video: Chris Harris compares the Ferrari 458 Italia and Porsche 911 GT3 RS
04-30-2010, 07:38 PM
#17
Three Wheelin'
I am thinking of adding a Ferrari; however, it will never be the 458. It's looks are just a little far out there. The 430 and the 360, although less capable, do stimulate the visual senses the same way that sweet candy stimulate the taste buds. As far as the RS is concerned, that is a keeper, if anything the 2010/11 may win out over the above mentioned Ferrari's. The automobile is definitely going in the direction where someday all we have to do is get in, punch in an address, and off the car goes without any input from the driver.
04-30-2010, 07:57 PM
#18
Instructor
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an audiophile, thats what I (and most of the so called purists) used to say when CD and digital media started taking hold. The turntable is king, you can't replicate that analogue lushness. Fast forward and even the most diehard analogue guys eventually caved in to the reality that digital is better on almost every level both practical as well as from a performance standpoint.
Are we at that same inflection point with these cars? Hanging on to what at the end of the day is yet another iteration of a design that is 40yrs old and fundamentally cannot compete from a pure performance standpoint with the latest?
Are we at that same inflection point with these cars? Hanging on to what at the end of the day is yet another iteration of a design that is 40yrs old and fundamentally cannot compete from a pure performance standpoint with the latest?
04-30-2010, 08:32 PM
#19
Instructor
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wonderfully written, if a bit incendiary post.
Playing devil's advocate a bit:
Not clear what exactly this would show other than total superiority in terms of pure lap times for the 458. Is there any question that from a strictly numerical standpoint the RS is outgunned? We can question the feel and driver involvement or other intangible elements but if the evaluation is strictly on performance numbers is there any way it would even be close given the existing data and tests?
I think the market disagrees with you on this one as they plainly are selling every car they are making.
Is this like saying lets take 100hp from the RS and see how it compares to a standard 911? The specs on these cars are what they are, not what you wish they were to make things more comparable.
Given the depreciation history of GT3, 997TT, and prior GT3RS we should probably stay away from the resale forecasting game. Anyone with enough money to afford any of these cars should already be assuming it will cost significant amounts of money to enjoy it. None of this stuff is collectible.
Obviously this is a Porsche forum, and it will have a bias. I am a p-car guy myself. But honestly it is difficult to feel like the responses here are not owners rationalizing their stable and not giving the competition a fare shake. Setting money aside and just being pure 'car guys' are you honestly saying that you would turn down the 458? Say what you will about styling and technology but every single review so far on this car has unanimously stated that it is the first car that truly moves the whole game forward in quite some time. There is something very exciting about that and it just cannot be said of the 911 lineage.
Playing devil's advocate a bit:
I look forward to the day a reviewer takes both cars to the track with pro drivers from teams campaigning the two cars -- they set up the suspension and alignment, they dial in tire temps and they work on setting lap times, segment times, apex speed, braking points and we see a comparison that will really have some meat to it.
Obviously this is a Porsche forum, and it will have a bias. I am a p-car guy myself. But honestly it is difficult to feel like the responses here are not owners rationalizing their stable and not giving the competition a fare shake. Setting money aside and just being pure 'car guys' are you honestly saying that you would turn down the 458? Say what you will about styling and technology but every single review so far on this car has unanimously stated that it is the first car that truly moves the whole game forward in quite some time. There is something very exciting about that and it just cannot be said of the 911 lineage.
04-30-2010, 09:31 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
How could that even happen? The level of materials, technology and handcrafting is significiantly higher on the 458. It is plainly a more expensive car to build not to mention the volume the company as a whole puts out compared to Porsche is on an entirely different scale.
How much I'm willing to spend on it is another.
I stand correct. I will not buy a 458 over my RS if it costs a penny more.
If it costs the same or less, then I will buy it and still keep my RS.
04-30-2010, 09:36 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
I like to do it all my self. The RS might be one of the last "old" cars.
I really won't mind all kinds of cars passing me in the coming 5-10 years, I do the work, I enjoy the feel. If I want to go faster I can get a viper or Corvette for less. There is no logic, it is a passionate hobby. Do what grabs your passion. I had a Nissan GTR also, fantastic car, but for the track junkies there's only one that feels right and holds up to track abuse.
When others look dumbfounded about no nav, no flappy pedals, no nothing, I know I got the right car for me. Too bad it now has stability control, but I can turn it off on track.....
I really won't mind all kinds of cars passing me in the coming 5-10 years, I do the work, I enjoy the feel. If I want to go faster I can get a viper or Corvette for less. There is no logic, it is a passionate hobby. Do what grabs your passion. I had a Nissan GTR also, fantastic car, but for the track junkies there's only one that feels right and holds up to track abuse.
When others look dumbfounded about no nav, no flappy pedals, no nothing, I know I got the right car for me. Too bad it now has stability control, but I can turn it off on track.....
04-30-2010, 09:57 PM
#22
Cruisin'
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You know where Chris' heart lies with the 2nd video.
I fully appreciate all of the technology in the 458, but Chris' closing comments in the 2nd video and the video footage from ~3.56 to the end (of the 2nd video) just says it all.
I fully appreciate all of the technology in the 458, but Chris' closing comments in the 2nd video and the video footage from ~3.56 to the end (of the 2nd video) just says it all.
04-30-2010, 11:01 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
As an audiophile, thats what I (and most of the so called purists) used to say when CD and digital media started taking hold. The turntable is king, you can't replicate that analogue lushness. Fast forward and even the most diehard analogue guys eventually caved in to the reality that digital is better on almost every level both practical as well as from a performance standpoint.
Are we at that same inflection point with these cars? Hanging on to what at the end of the day is yet another iteration of a design that is 40yrs old and fundamentally cannot compete from a pure performance standpoint with the latest?
Are we at that same inflection point with these cars? Hanging on to what at the end of the day is yet another iteration of a design that is 40yrs old and fundamentally cannot compete from a pure performance standpoint with the latest?
Will Porsche eventually head towards that direction? Perhaps but I think they have already w/ variants like the TT and GT2. But I think the RS will always be a pure and unadulterated 'drivers car'!
05-01-2010, 12:17 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
The new GT3 & GT3RS are both an incredible driver’s car. I hope I’ll own one until I’m too old to drive. I’m still smiling from ear to ear days after a HPDE event, its pure excitement for me. I’m old school so mine will always be a minimalist car with a manual gear box.
The Ferrari is truly beautiful and an engineering marvel but not on my wish list, The R8 although not in the same league as the Ferrari, would be a better choice for me as a touring cruiser.
The Ferrari is truly beautiful and an engineering marvel but not on my wish list, The R8 although not in the same league as the Ferrari, would be a better choice for me as a touring cruiser.
05-01-2010, 12:41 AM
#25
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
As an audiophile, thats what I (and most of the so called purists) used to say when CD and digital media started taking hold. The turntable is king, you can't replicate that analogue lushness. Fast forward and even the most diehard analogue guys eventually caved in to the reality that digital is better on almost every level both practical as well as from a performance standpoint.
Are we at that same inflection point with these cars? Hanging on to what at the end of the day is yet another iteration of a design that is 40yrs old and fundamentally cannot compete from a pure performance standpoint with the latest?
Are we at that same inflection point with these cars? Hanging on to what at the end of the day is yet another iteration of a design that is 40yrs old and fundamentally cannot compete from a pure performance standpoint with the latest?
it's not that one technology is superior than the other. i have zero interest in listening to the accurate portray of live music. i am only interested in listening to what i like to hear. golden and caramel. so far, i still only like marantz 7 and 9, ARC classic 30, CJ premiers, old rowland 7 (dark dark sound), ML2 through orig sonus faber guarneri, amator etc. using goldmund, VPI with SME V holding koetsu or kiseki (old benz micro was good too). as you can see the sound will be ultra warm and lush drowning the listener in caramel molasses. it's incredibly inaccurate but i love it. i hate spectral, wilson audio etc b/c they are too accurate and ear piercing..
Ferarri vs porsche are just like that. it's really personal. i like them both, but if i can have one, it will be 2010 RS, if i can have two it will be 2010 RS and 2011 RS, if i can have three, i will add a ferrari. i just tracked a 2010 RS today.... WTF, of the 10+ GT3/RS i have had with different level of mods, NONE hold 1/2 a candle to the new RS.
05-01-2010, 12:42 AM
#26
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
The new GT3 & GT3RS are both an incredible driver’s car. I hope I’ll own one until I’m too old to drive. I’m still smiling from ear to ear days after a HPDE event, its pure excitement for me. I’m old school so mine will always be a minimalist car with a manual gear box.
The Ferrari is truly beautiful and an engineering marvel but not on my wish list, The R8 although not in the same league as the Ferrari, would be a better choice for me as a touring cruiser.
The Ferrari is truly beautiful and an engineering marvel but not on my wish list, The R8 although not in the same league as the Ferrari, would be a better choice for me as a touring cruiser.
it's just a faster version of my S4. and my S4 looks much better.
05-01-2010, 12:44 AM
#27
The Rebel
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
How could that even happen? The level of materials, technology and handcrafting is significiantly higher on the 458. It is plainly a more expensive car to build not to mention the volume the company as a whole puts out compared to Porsche is on an entirely different scale.
05-01-2010, 12:45 AM
#28
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Entertaining videos! I guess Evo has to pander to the "gratuitous oversteer" readership just because Top Gear has set the expectation that every review involves rampant wheel spin. I guess the context of the review was to be first to print with the cars and that meant finding a customer car (the black Ferrari) and going for a hoon around the countryside always watching the rearview mirror.
I look forward to the day a reviewer takes both cars to the track with pro drivers from teams campaigning the two cars -- they set up the suspension and alignment, they dial in tire temps and they work on setting lap times, segment times, apex speed, braking points and we see a comparison that will really have some meat to it.
I have to say I was hoping for great things from Ferrari -- at least on paper, the 458 should have been a tour de force and a car, as Chris Harris advises, worth selling the house to get one. But my hopes for owning a new Ferrari were extinguished with the global economic depression bringing the final death knell to Ferrari -- depreciating resale value of their most sought-after cars. Now that Ferrari can no longer demand high secondary market values, it has lost its place. I hope they recover that ability (for the used cars to be more expensive than the new ones) but I don't hold much hope. Well, Ferrari can take their time as far as I'm concerned because as of now, with only the Italia and California to sell, they simply don't have a car worth buying regardless of the sticker or the depreciation.
It seems to me the (simply grotesque) Ferrari is a next generation car at an exorbitant price -- something technology can create to allow rank amateur drivers to hack about on the street or the track and know the car will compensate for their incompetence. In black, the car is rather less offensive to the eye, but that's not okay for a Ferrari -- it should be a feast of outrageous excess and Italian style from all angles, but even this black 458 is just ugly. A Ferrari should be gorgeous from any angle or perspective, but this Ferrari, well, if you try very hard, you can find an obscure viewpoint (say directly overhead) where its bulbous, slab-sided shapes can be seen in a positive light. And that's not okay.
If you gave the Ferrari it's dual-clutch advantage, but restricted the power to be equal to the Porsche -- which car would be able to turn the faster lap or finish ahead in a 24 hour race? Will the Ferrari be at Nurburgring?
The RS arrives with a factory roll cage option. I wonder what Ferrari offers? The RS will be seen at the track and seen driven hard by skilled amateurs, some of whom will have owned 911's for decades. The Ferrari will be seen at the expensive real estate addresses and sold with negligible miles by the status conscious. The RS will be coveted in the "stripper" options (the lightweight battery, lightweight brakes, lightweight seats, lightweight headlights for Pete's sake!) and the Ferrari will be ordered with "resale value" in mind.
The two cars couldn't be more different. The two respective buyers couldn't be less alike. Anyone buying both is just saying they can afford both -- and we'll leave it for a year or two to see the Ferrari depreciate $100K and the Porsche to lose perhaps $20 or $30K.
The 458 Italia looks dated and silly before it's even in the showrooms. At least to my eye. Some would say it's the role of high fashion to be a moment in time. I'd say you need only look at the F40 to say that's simply not true of a great Ferrari and the 911 shape is the very definition of timeless. And this reviewer makes comments in reverence of the RS as the apex of a long heritage of superb race cars and street 911's while the 458 is new car unlike the 430 and 360 before it. Any and every Ferrari must be held to the highest standards and wildest expectations, but the two new Ferraris, the Italia and the California both could have been built by Hyundai or Fiat -- they're both lifeless technological products, they're heavy and they're only as impressive as the stack of money required to buy them.
The Porsche and the Ferrari -- there's just no comparing the two.
I look forward to the day a reviewer takes both cars to the track with pro drivers from teams campaigning the two cars -- they set up the suspension and alignment, they dial in tire temps and they work on setting lap times, segment times, apex speed, braking points and we see a comparison that will really have some meat to it.
I have to say I was hoping for great things from Ferrari -- at least on paper, the 458 should have been a tour de force and a car, as Chris Harris advises, worth selling the house to get one. But my hopes for owning a new Ferrari were extinguished with the global economic depression bringing the final death knell to Ferrari -- depreciating resale value of their most sought-after cars. Now that Ferrari can no longer demand high secondary market values, it has lost its place. I hope they recover that ability (for the used cars to be more expensive than the new ones) but I don't hold much hope. Well, Ferrari can take their time as far as I'm concerned because as of now, with only the Italia and California to sell, they simply don't have a car worth buying regardless of the sticker or the depreciation.
It seems to me the (simply grotesque) Ferrari is a next generation car at an exorbitant price -- something technology can create to allow rank amateur drivers to hack about on the street or the track and know the car will compensate for their incompetence. In black, the car is rather less offensive to the eye, but that's not okay for a Ferrari -- it should be a feast of outrageous excess and Italian style from all angles, but even this black 458 is just ugly. A Ferrari should be gorgeous from any angle or perspective, but this Ferrari, well, if you try very hard, you can find an obscure viewpoint (say directly overhead) where its bulbous, slab-sided shapes can be seen in a positive light. And that's not okay.
If you gave the Ferrari it's dual-clutch advantage, but restricted the power to be equal to the Porsche -- which car would be able to turn the faster lap or finish ahead in a 24 hour race? Will the Ferrari be at Nurburgring?
The RS arrives with a factory roll cage option. I wonder what Ferrari offers? The RS will be seen at the track and seen driven hard by skilled amateurs, some of whom will have owned 911's for decades. The Ferrari will be seen at the expensive real estate addresses and sold with negligible miles by the status conscious. The RS will be coveted in the "stripper" options (the lightweight battery, lightweight brakes, lightweight seats, lightweight headlights for Pete's sake!) and the Ferrari will be ordered with "resale value" in mind.
The two cars couldn't be more different. The two respective buyers couldn't be less alike. Anyone buying both is just saying they can afford both -- and we'll leave it for a year or two to see the Ferrari depreciate $100K and the Porsche to lose perhaps $20 or $30K.
The 458 Italia looks dated and silly before it's even in the showrooms. At least to my eye. Some would say it's the role of high fashion to be a moment in time. I'd say you need only look at the F40 to say that's simply not true of a great Ferrari and the 911 shape is the very definition of timeless. And this reviewer makes comments in reverence of the RS as the apex of a long heritage of superb race cars and street 911's while the 458 is new car unlike the 430 and 360 before it. Any and every Ferrari must be held to the highest standards and wildest expectations, but the two new Ferraris, the Italia and the California both could have been built by Hyundai or Fiat -- they're both lifeless technological products, they're heavy and they're only as impressive as the stack of money required to buy them.
The Porsche and the Ferrari -- there's just no comparing the two.
i just go plant my butt on the seat, drive it around then see how hard i get. then i decide if i need such a car....
05-01-2010, 01:04 AM
#29
The Rebel
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Today I drove a 458 and an '10 RS. And I own (regurlarly drive) an MkI RS. The 458 is just in a different league, light years ahead of the 430 and truly feels like an extension of your body, intuitively reading your mind as if knowing what you want to do before you know.
Suspension is softer than in the RS' but overall it feels as if it has the same amount of grip. The RS still feels a whole hell of allot more raw. The 458 is a well refined vehicle in every aspect and I can't wait for their specialized version.
Oh yeah and as far as looks the 458, IMHO, is just glorious!
Suspension is softer than in the RS' but overall it feels as if it has the same amount of grip. The RS still feels a whole hell of allot more raw. The 458 is a well refined vehicle in every aspect and I can't wait for their specialized version.
Oh yeah and as far as looks the 458, IMHO, is just glorious!
05-01-2010, 01:18 AM
#30
I just watched the video again and it reminds me that he's pretty tentative, bordering on nervous in the Ferrari, but he's had enough seat time in the RS to be willing to push the SC/TC button a couple of times and get "loud" with the car. He makes it clear, the F458 is a customer car, not a factory demo loaner, so you can imagine he's on best behavior not to end up with it in the ditch. : )