well, ABS Ice Mode finally got me...
04-25-2011, 04:54 PM
#166
Rennlist Member
Who said it was? Again, you are conflating design and implementation.
Asserting that the ABS "is working as designed" is not evidence that the design is satisfactory. It's a circular tautology that does not address the complaints raised in the thread.
If it is working as designed, that means the design is inadequate for how these cars are used.
Further, I'd argue that any ABS system that decides you're driving on ice (if that's truly what is happening) when the ambient temperature is 90F could stand to see some fundamental design improvements.
Asserting that the ABS "is working as designed" is not evidence that the design is satisfactory. It's a circular tautology that does not address the complaints raised in the thread.
If it is working as designed, that means the design is inadequate for how these cars are used.
Further, I'd argue that any ABS system that decides you're driving on ice (if that's truly what is happening) when the ambient temperature is 90F could stand to see some fundamental design improvements.
04-26-2011, 02:09 AM
#168
Rennlist Member
Who said it was? Again, you are conflating design and implementation.
Asserting that the ABS "is working as designed" is not evidence that the design is satisfactory. It's a circular tautology that does not address the complaints raised in the thread.
If it is working as designed, that means the design is inadequate for how these cars are used.
Further, I'd argue that any ABS system that decides you're driving on ice (if that's truly what is happening) when the ambient temperature is 90F could stand to see some fundamental design improvements.
Asserting that the ABS "is working as designed" is not evidence that the design is satisfactory. It's a circular tautology that does not address the complaints raised in the thread.
If it is working as designed, that means the design is inadequate for how these cars are used.
Further, I'd argue that any ABS system that decides you're driving on ice (if that's truly what is happening) when the ambient temperature is 90F could stand to see some fundamental design improvements.
To truly define "working as designed" and or "what is satisfactory" we would have to have insight into the Porsche design team and marketing dept. So I guess we really can't have this conversation then.
My opinion is that the design is satisfactory, if you want a system that works better than the street car system, for your suggested needs, they have designed that one for you also and there is a Cup car with your name on it that will meet those race track design parameters. Automobiles, especially street cars driven on race tracks, are huge compromises, pick your wants and needs carefully.
Or..... should you want true race car braking on your GT3, no problem, call me or a number of others, write the check and we will give you more than you ever imagined in braking performance.
I offered my opinion, you seem to strongly disagree, it's ok, my feelings are not hurt, I am ok.
I offered my experience with this condition, which fyi, it's not a condition where the ABS thinks you are "driving on ice", it's a condition in which the response taken by the ABS "makes you feel like you are driving on ice or black ice".
I also offered my experience having worked on and driven cars with the Bosch Motorsports ABS and reprogamed BMW Motorsports (Grand AM) systems, many people haven't had a chance to drive or experience either of these and I just thought I could offer some insight. If you don't see any value in that, then that's ok also.
04-26-2011, 02:17 AM
#169
Rennlist Member
For the OP,
I do think Porsche already knows about this ABS condition.
For the RMS, they know about that also and to some degree have addressed it. There is a tech bulletin, at least one that I am aware of and possibly 2,regarding it and updated parts to address it. This is a different bulletin than for the M96 RMS as well.
I do think Porsche already knows about this ABS condition.
For the RMS, they know about that also and to some degree have addressed it. There is a tech bulletin, at least one that I am aware of and possibly 2,regarding it and updated parts to address it. This is a different bulletin than for the M96 RMS as well.
04-26-2011, 10:21 AM
#170
Drifting
Thread Starter
There is a great YouTube video of French rally legend Francois Delecour with Chris Harris where Francois highlights the issue after only a minute or so of driving the gt3 - basically saying for him to drive the car faster he would need the shifter fixed so it would go in under load, the suspension optimized and the ABS fixed because it doesn't work - in fact Chris Harris in the video basically completes Francois's sentence as soon as the he mentions ABS - ie, people that really know Porsches and really know how to drive cars know that the OE ABS module has 'issues'.
I would like to again make the following point: I fully understand that all street ABS modules are not optimal, even remotely, for race cars - thus the factory has Motorsport race optimized ABS modules that can be purchased. And, I'm not talking about all the known ABS traits that all OE street modules have - ie bumpy brake zones, etc. My original post was to highlight a very dangerous FLAW that exists that is not easy to replicate - that is the instant high, hard brake pedal that gives you virtually no stopping power. Again, to me it is a Logic Flaw, as this should not be the final answer at the end of all the IF statements - ie maneuverability over stopping - the final IF statement should be Stopping not maneuverability when the computer throws it's hands in the air.
I suspect, that over time, given posts like this and other feedback, the gt3 ABS module will get improved so that cars don't go straight off racetracks for no reason.
This is not a track that I did not know - far from the case - and, it wasn't even a bumpy brake zone - Mosport #3 is even slightly uphill but has a very slight change in uphill to very slightly less uphill on the outer side of the track. Trust me, I wasn't going sideways into the brake zone, didn't have a different line than usual.
The Vet that followed me for a lap, my passenger at the time, as well as everyone that was there that day, can vouch for my smooth driving. The driver of the Vet said to me after the off - "you just went straight off" - I went for the brakes, I got 20% of what I requested - if that isn't a failure of the programming I don't know what else to say. I programmed earlier in my career and I know that all potential outcomes end at one branch or another in the program. I would humbly suggest that a few more IF statements are required to handle the outcome that I and others have experienced - I can live with the crappy 75% braking you get in a bumpy brakezone - my passenger and I are very lucky that we got away with 20% braking when I requested 100%.
Last edited by 997gt3north; 04-26-2011 at 11:51 AM.
04-26-2011, 10:35 AM
#171
Rennlist Member
I refer exactly to what is described in the post above - 'My original post was to highlight a very dangerous FLAW that exists that is not easily to replicate - that is the instant high, hard brake pedal that gives you virtually no stopping power.'
04-26-2011, 10:36 AM
#172
Nordschleife Master
Viking, I appreciate your posts and find them valuable.
A lot has been written here. Care to distill the info into a few bullets? What causes and therefore how to avoid the condition? In fact, is there a way to ensure it never happens while still using a stiff suspension, sticky tires, and track pads... other than by driving slow and braking early?
For the longest time, I thought the issue was mainly caused by too big a delta in F/R tire diameter/circumference, but there appears to be much more to this?
A lot has been written here. Care to distill the info into a few bullets? What causes and therefore how to avoid the condition? In fact, is there a way to ensure it never happens while still using a stiff suspension, sticky tires, and track pads... other than by driving slow and braking early?
For the longest time, I thought the issue was mainly caused by too big a delta in F/R tire diameter/circumference, but there appears to be much more to this?
04-26-2011, 10:57 AM
#173
Rennlist Member
I would like to again make the following point again. I fully understand that all street ABS modules are not optimal, even remotely, for race cars - thus the factory has Motorsport race optimized ABS modules that can be purchased. And, I'm not talking about all the known ABS traits that all OE street modules have - ie bumpy brake zones, etc. My original post was to highlight a very dangerous FLAW that exists that is not easily to replicate - that is the instant high, hard brake pedal that gives you virtually no stopping power. Again, to me it is a Logic Flaw, as this should not be the final answer at the end of all the IF statements - ie maneuverability over stopping - the final IF statement should be Stopping not maneuverability when the computer throws it's hands in the air.
Last edited by Nugget; 04-26-2011 at 11:25 AM.
04-26-2011, 11:26 AM
#174
The Penguin King
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Everything in a car has limitations. One key to driving at the limit is to understand what those limitations are, and how to work with/around them. The top driving coaches and race mechanics help their clients do just that.
Last edited by mglobe; 04-26-2011 at 09:03 PM. Reason: Edited for the sake of civility
04-26-2011, 11:34 AM
#175
That's a bit of a tautology. In effect you're saying "it can't be a bad design because it is performing as designed." What you mean is that it is a good implementation, as the ABS system is apparently performing as designed. That doesn't address the issue of whether or not the design is good.
If the braking system is performing exactly as designed then it is a badly designed ABS system if so many owners are familiar with this issue. Porsche markets these cars as suitable to use on a track, particularly the GT2/GT3 cars. It's not crazy to expect the design for the ABS system to be suitable for track use. It's not even crazy to expect the design of the ABS system to work with R Comp or DOT slick tires, given that their use is sanctioned in the owners manual. It's certainly reasonable to be frustrated that this is a problem even with stock wheels and tires.
The fact that sometimes the brakes do not work when on track is a shortcoming of the ABS system in these cars. That's either a design flaw or an implementation failure or some combination of both.
If the braking system is performing exactly as designed then it is a badly designed ABS system if so many owners are familiar with this issue. Porsche markets these cars as suitable to use on a track, particularly the GT2/GT3 cars. It's not crazy to expect the design for the ABS system to be suitable for track use. It's not even crazy to expect the design of the ABS system to work with R Comp or DOT slick tires, given that their use is sanctioned in the owners manual. It's certainly reasonable to be frustrated that this is a problem even with stock wheels and tires.
The fact that sometimes the brakes do not work when on track is a shortcoming of the ABS system in these cars. That's either a design flaw or an implementation failure or some combination of both.
Now that I would disagree with. It's performs exactly as designed to operate under the conditions Porsche (and other manufacturers, in other vehicles) have designed it.
It's the end user that puts it on the track, adds stickier tires, and/or higher coeffiecent brake pads, and/or different sized or aged tires, and/or different suspension, drives over bumps at triple digit speeds, etc etc, and then expects everything to operate the same.
As many things Porsche and most car manufacturers do, they are designed to work together, that ABS system is fine as programmed for street use and actually much more. Start changing items and you will see issues.
The "race" ABS systems that exist are much better, they are developed for the track specifically and are programmed for cars with tires that can maintain higher than 1+g lateral, brake at 1.4+g, and they have been programed not to go hard at the first sight of a wheel lift or trail brake, and more, but I think that gives you the idea.
It's the end user that puts it on the track, adds stickier tires, and/or higher coeffiecent brake pads, and/or different sized or aged tires, and/or different suspension, drives over bumps at triple digit speeds, etc etc, and then expects everything to operate the same.
As many things Porsche and most car manufacturers do, they are designed to work together, that ABS system is fine as programmed for street use and actually much more. Start changing items and you will see issues.
The "race" ABS systems that exist are much better, they are developed for the track specifically and are programmed for cars with tires that can maintain higher than 1+g lateral, brake at 1.4+g, and they have been programed not to go hard at the first sight of a wheel lift or trail brake, and more, but I think that gives you the idea.
Can you pls describe in details how to reproduce that? I am really interested to learn how and when it happens so it would never happen unexpectedly.
I refer exactly to what is described in the post above - 'My original post was to highlight a very dangerous FLAW that exists that is not easily to replicate - that is the instant high, hard brake pedal that gives you virtually no stopping power.'
I refer exactly to what is described in the post above - 'My original post was to highlight a very dangerous FLAW that exists that is not easily to replicate - that is the instant high, hard brake pedal that gives you virtually no stopping power.'
Actually, the black car in Viking's avatar won NASA GTS3 Nationals last year walking away. It has a stock ABS unit in it. And a lot of the classes that his clients run in don't allow non-stock ABS units.
Everything in a car has limitations. One key to driving at the limit is to understand what those limitations are, and how to work with/around them. The top driving coaches and race mechanics help their clients do just that.
Everything in a car has limitations. One key to driving at the limit is to understand what those limitations are, and how to work with/around them. The top driving coaches and race mechanics help their clients do just that.
Is it as simple as braking smooth and early, using a specific pad, wheel and tire combo etc...etc...
I'm sorry but until the Viking actually spits out some usable info he's not contributing. However if he was closer to me I'd be happy to stop by the shop with check in hand because although I've yet to experience the issue it still freaks me out lol.
04-26-2011, 11:40 AM
#176
Drifting
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Munich
Posts: 2,722
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nugget
You seem to have forgotten that the GT3 is a STREET car. It has an ABS system for a STREET car.
You complaining about behaviour that was, is and always will be outside the performance envelope that STREET cars are designed to handle.
Putting on pseudo track tyres, or even slicks is not compatible with ROAD legal homologation.
Porsche won't teach you how to box up portions of chicken nugget, if you don't teach them how to build and test brake and ABS systems.
It is very well known in Germany that when you put extreme tyres or slicks on street cars, braking performance is often degraded. Were you to speak to a Bosch or PAG development engineer about the problem you perceive, they would explain this to you.
If you want to have a street car that you can put track tyres on, then the solution lies in your hands. Get someboty who knows what they are doing to fit an ABS system that is programable and make sure the existing program parameters are duplicated along with the additional parms for use with slicks/track tyres only. If this is too rich for your blood, then I guess its back to the chicken nuggets.
R+C
You seem to have forgotten that the GT3 is a STREET car. It has an ABS system for a STREET car.
You complaining about behaviour that was, is and always will be outside the performance envelope that STREET cars are designed to handle.
Putting on pseudo track tyres, or even slicks is not compatible with ROAD legal homologation.
Porsche won't teach you how to box up portions of chicken nugget, if you don't teach them how to build and test brake and ABS systems.
It is very well known in Germany that when you put extreme tyres or slicks on street cars, braking performance is often degraded. Were you to speak to a Bosch or PAG development engineer about the problem you perceive, they would explain this to you.
If you want to have a street car that you can put track tyres on, then the solution lies in your hands. Get someboty who knows what they are doing to fit an ABS system that is programable and make sure the existing program parameters are duplicated along with the additional parms for use with slicks/track tyres only. If this is too rich for your blood, then I guess its back to the chicken nuggets.
R+C
04-26-2011, 11:44 AM
#177
Rennlist Member
Classy.
For the record, this bug in the ABS can be induced even on street tires, which I and many others have already mentioned in the thread, so your strange little rant about track tires seems misplaced.
Neither have I forgotten that the GT3 is a street car, as I and many others have already mentioned in the thread.
Cheers.
For the record, this bug in the ABS can be induced even on street tires, which I and many others have already mentioned in the thread, so your strange little rant about track tires seems misplaced.
Neither have I forgotten that the GT3 is a street car, as I and many others have already mentioned in the thread.
Cheers.
04-26-2011, 11:48 AM
#178
The Penguin King
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Which is why the Viking is full of non information until you write a check and defends a flawed ABS system because he profits from it. It's all good but hey toss us a bone so we can at least avoid a serious off.
Is it as simple as braking smooth and early, using a specific pad, wheel and tire combo etc...etc...
Is it as simple as braking smooth and early, using a specific pad, wheel and tire combo etc...etc...
Unless you've dealt with the guy directly, I don't think it's fair to pass judgement on how he runs his business. It is basically as simple as smooth and early (maybe deft is a better description) braking, suspension setup, pad choice, tire pressures, the track surface.... actually it's not simple at all.
04-26-2011, 11:51 AM
#179
Rennlist Member
I regret that my snark about financial interests got caught by your quote. I'd actually edited my post to remove that line between your hitting "reply" and "post." It doesn't serve the discussion at all and I'm sorry for taking the thread in that direction.
04-26-2011, 11:52 AM
#180
Nugget
You seem to have forgotten that the GT3 is a STREET car. It has an ABS system for a STREET car.
You complaining about behaviour that was, is and always will be outside the performance envelope that STREET cars are designed to handle.
Putting on pseudo track tyres, or even slicks is not compatible with ROAD legal homologation.
Porsche won't teach you how to box up portions of chicken nugget, if you don't teach them how to build and test brake and ABS systems.
It is very well known in Germany that when you put extreme tyres or slicks on street cars, braking performance is often degraded. Were you to speak to a Bosch or PAG development engineer about the problem you perceive, they would explain this to you.
If you want to have a street car that you can put track tyres on, then the solution lies in your hands. Get someboty who knows what they are doing to fit an ABS system that is programable and make sure the existing program parameters are duplicated along with the additional parms for use with slicks/track tyres only. If this is too rich for your blood, then I guess its back to the chicken nuggets.
R+C
You seem to have forgotten that the GT3 is a STREET car. It has an ABS system for a STREET car.
You complaining about behaviour that was, is and always will be outside the performance envelope that STREET cars are designed to handle.
Putting on pseudo track tyres, or even slicks is not compatible with ROAD legal homologation.
Porsche won't teach you how to box up portions of chicken nugget, if you don't teach them how to build and test brake and ABS systems.
It is very well known in Germany that when you put extreme tyres or slicks on street cars, braking performance is often degraded. Were you to speak to a Bosch or PAG development engineer about the problem you perceive, they would explain this to you.
If you want to have a street car that you can put track tyres on, then the solution lies in your hands. Get someboty who knows what they are doing to fit an ABS system that is programable and make sure the existing program parameters are duplicated along with the additional parms for use with slicks/track tyres only. If this is too rich for your blood, then I guess its back to the chicken nuggets.
R+C
Dude the car cost 100k plus and you're talking about too rich for somebody's blood and chicken nuggets
For that price and what this car is designed for and advertised for the EFFF ing ABS should EFFF ing work PERIOD.
It comes with massive brakes, and basically track rubber from the factory you think that's for running to McDonald's for some nuggets.
Read this post:
The ABS 'condition' is extremely well known by Porsche - there is no maybe about it. Any competent race car driver will highlight all the short comings of the street ABS module with 5 minutes of driving the car above 9/10ths (which they do for a living) on any real world surface - ie not perfect glass smooth and perfect flat - ie the NRing comes to mind.
There is a great YouTube video of French rally legend Francois Delecour with Chris Harris where Francois highlights the issue after only a minute or so of driving the gt3 - basically saying for him to drive the car faster he would need the shifter fixed so it would go in under load, the suspension optimized and the ABS fixed because it doesn't work - in fact Chris Harris in the video basically completes Francois's sentence as soon as the he mentions ABS - ie, people that really know Porsches and really know how to drive cars know that the OE ABS module has 'issues'.
I would like to again make the following point again. I fully understand that all street ABS modules are not optimal, even remotely, for race cars - thus the factory has Motorsport race optimized ABS modules that can be purchased. And, I'm not talking about all the known ABS traits that all OE street modules have - ie bumpy brake zones, etc. My original post was to highlight a very dangerous FLAW that exists that is not easily to replicate - that is the instant high, hard brake pedal that gives you virtually no stopping power. Again, to me it is a Logic Flaw, as this should not be the final answer at the end of all the IF statements - ie maneuverability over stopping - the final IF statement should be Stopping not maneuverability when the computer throws it's hands in the air.
I suspect, that over time, given posts like this and other feedback, the gt3 ABS module will get improved so that cars don't go straight off racetracks for no reason.
This is not a track that I did not know - far from the case - and, it wasn't even a bumpy brake zone - Mosport #3 is even slightly uphill but has a very slight change in uphill to very slightly less uphill on the outer side of the track. Trust me, I wasn't going sideways into the brake zone, didn't have a different line than usual.
The Vet that followed me for a lap, my passenger at the time, as well as everyone that was there that day, can vouch for my smooth driving. The driver of the Vet said to me after the off - "you just went straight off" - I went for the brakes, I got 20% of what I requested - if that isn't a failure of the programming I don't know what else to say. I programmed earlier in my career and I know that all potential outcomes end at one branch or another in the program. I would humbly suggest that a few more IF statements are required to handle the outcome that I and others have experienced - I can live with the crappy 75% braking you get in a bumpy brakezone - my passenger and I are very lucky that we got away with 20% braking when I requested 100%.
The ABS system sucks, repeat after me...........
I don't think putting in a more suitable ABS system is too much to expect from the consumer and fix the damn coolant pipes while your at it etc...
