To (pcc)B or not to (pcc)B? That is the question.
09-07-2009, 01:06 AM
#19
Poseur
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I hope you excuse my input here, as a regular 997S owner with the PCCBs. I debated the typical issues when ordering the car and chose the PCCBs because of the lighter unsprung weight (very noticeable), longer brake life (cheaper services), and the lack of a mess with brake dust. Having been a 911 guy for decades I have watched what has been happening to the brakes on 911s over the decades and have concluded that environmental rules are dictating the changes in the pad materials, which ultimately have negatively affected rotor life. Prior to this car, I NEVER replaced a rotor on a Porsche automobile, and I had several of them, and two were well into 100,000 miles and beyond. But these were earlier 911s,---not 993 or later cars.
Weight savings affecting the sprung weight is substantial, and translates to the rapid steerability of this car. Uneven road surfaces contribute little to the tracking of the car because of the lesser unstrung weight.
I recently bled my brakes and mic'ed the brade pads and found that in about 40,000 miles I have used about 0.6 mm of pad material,--with the new pads mic'ing at 10.6mm. At my rate of consumption, I have a long way to go,--and I'm not a ***** when it comes to braking (can we say that here?) But then, I have been driving Porsches since I was a teenager and owned them as long. I only had a license for 3.5 years before I switched to Porsche. I use momentum driving and braking, which doesn't tear up the brakes as much as some do. Reported herein have been a few isolated cases of individuals trashing their PCCBs. I honestly don't know HOW they have been about to do that to these incredible brakes in such a short time,--but even a MONKEY can break a solid steel ball, given enough time.
Sure, the initial outlay is substantial. If you have a habit of turning cars within 3-4 years or less, then you won't get your money back out of them. Your amortization period is way too short. If you're like me, and you keep cars for some time, they will wind up paying for themselves and more.
Most of the naysayers didn't order the PCCBs and bitch about the cost of them. True, there were development issues with the first generation PCCBs,--which Porsche should have come clean with, but didn't. These second generation things are incredible.
With as fine an automobile as the GT3RS, the PCCBs would be the most logical choice. The best brakes for the best car.
Weight savings affecting the sprung weight is substantial, and translates to the rapid steerability of this car. Uneven road surfaces contribute little to the tracking of the car because of the lesser unstrung weight.
I recently bled my brakes and mic'ed the brade pads and found that in about 40,000 miles I have used about 0.6 mm of pad material,--with the new pads mic'ing at 10.6mm. At my rate of consumption, I have a long way to go,--and I'm not a ***** when it comes to braking (can we say that here?) But then, I have been driving Porsches since I was a teenager and owned them as long. I only had a license for 3.5 years before I switched to Porsche. I use momentum driving and braking, which doesn't tear up the brakes as much as some do. Reported herein have been a few isolated cases of individuals trashing their PCCBs. I honestly don't know HOW they have been about to do that to these incredible brakes in such a short time,--but even a MONKEY can break a solid steel ball, given enough time.
Sure, the initial outlay is substantial. If you have a habit of turning cars within 3-4 years or less, then you won't get your money back out of them. Your amortization period is way too short. If you're like me, and you keep cars for some time, they will wind up paying for themselves and more.
Most of the naysayers didn't order the PCCBs and bitch about the cost of them. True, there were development issues with the first generation PCCBs,--which Porsche should have come clean with, but didn't. These second generation things are incredible.
With as fine an automobile as the GT3RS, the PCCBs would be the most logical choice. The best brakes for the best car.
09-07-2009, 10:13 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
A couple of thoughts and questionsfor track junkies..
PCCB is very nice on the street, but who needs better than Iron brakes on the street?
I think track day use is also hard to quantify.
My red calipers are very dark brown in the rear (The new rear brake ducts help!), I like to think I run with the faster guys.
I also see GT3's with red calipers and their brakes and cars look new, hardly any cracks in the front rotors and all 4 caliper bright red. They sometimes have many track days, they just don't push the brakes very hard, I guess. Sometimes the faster guys are 10+ seconds faster than the more relaxed guys.
I bet the more relaxed guys would have no problems with PCCB, but I am not so sure about the faster guys who run 30+ track days a year.
Anyone made the switch to PCCB, who was killing the iron brakes previously?
I always look on track, but I have not seen very fast brake abusers like myself (Not the very fast part, but the brake abuser part
) with PCCB, so I have not seen for myself that the PCCB can hold up long enough and I am hesitant to spend $9K to experiment with it myself.
When I read that the CUP cars can make them last a year, PCCB is tempting.
How many pads to they use?
How many track hours do they run a season?
How much do the pads cost that they use?
Everyone likes better pedal fell and I do get a soft pedal on Hoosiers in the summer high temps during the last days of use of my pads, but I get about 8 days out of the Pagis yellow 29's (I flip them after 4 days) and that is probably running them a day or 2 longer than I should. Pedal feel on lap one and lap 20 are definately not the same.
If the PCCB rotors do not hold up a couple of years, I could go to iron replacements I suppose.
I am less worried about the initial outlay than the long term running cost.
Using pads only 50% seems expensive. Now I pay less for my rotors than I do for my pads with iron brakes. Assuming 30 track days a year, I will spend on brakes:
4 sets of Pagis yellow R29 pads +/- $735.00ea = $2940.00
2 sets of OEM rear and Prosport slotted rotors +/- $900.00ea = $1800.00
Just my confused thoughts and questions....
PCCB is very nice on the street, but who needs better than Iron brakes on the street?
I think track day use is also hard to quantify.
My red calipers are very dark brown in the rear (The new rear brake ducts help!), I like to think I run with the faster guys.
I also see GT3's with red calipers and their brakes and cars look new, hardly any cracks in the front rotors and all 4 caliper bright red. They sometimes have many track days, they just don't push the brakes very hard, I guess. Sometimes the faster guys are 10+ seconds faster than the more relaxed guys.
I bet the more relaxed guys would have no problems with PCCB, but I am not so sure about the faster guys who run 30+ track days a year.
Anyone made the switch to PCCB, who was killing the iron brakes previously?
I always look on track, but I have not seen very fast brake abusers like myself (Not the very fast part, but the brake abuser part
) with PCCB, so I have not seen for myself that the PCCB can hold up long enough and I am hesitant to spend $9K to experiment with it myself.When I read that the CUP cars can make them last a year, PCCB is tempting.
How many pads to they use?
How many track hours do they run a season?
How much do the pads cost that they use?
Everyone likes better pedal fell and I do get a soft pedal on Hoosiers in the summer high temps during the last days of use of my pads, but I get about 8 days out of the Pagis yellow 29's (I flip them after 4 days) and that is probably running them a day or 2 longer than I should. Pedal feel on lap one and lap 20 are definately not the same.
If the PCCB rotors do not hold up a couple of years, I could go to iron replacements I suppose.
I am less worried about the initial outlay than the long term running cost.
Using pads only 50% seems expensive. Now I pay less for my rotors than I do for my pads with iron brakes. Assuming 30 track days a year, I will spend on brakes:
4 sets of Pagis yellow R29 pads +/- $735.00ea = $2940.00
2 sets of OEM rear and Prosport slotted rotors +/- $900.00ea = $1800.00
Just my confused thoughts and questions....
09-07-2009, 10:40 AM
#23
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Trakacr brings a good point; we don't see too many PCCB running Sebring, which happens to be very hard on brakes. Still, the '10 rotors are 15", and the iron rotors should cost some more, while the ceramics should be the same or less, as they are same size as previously (15") and are (hopefully ) becoming more available.
Does anybody know what are going prices for replacement rotors - ceramics and latest gen iron?
Does anybody know what are going prices for replacement rotors - ceramics and latest gen iron?
09-07-2009, 10:47 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
Good point!
I am curious about the OEM price comparo for the '10.
Maybe the new iron rotors will be much more expensive, but than some after market supplier will jump in and offer a cheaper, slotted solution eventually.
Probably more difficult and more expensive to do with 15" rotors though....
Maybe the delta will get smaller in the future. I think there are aftermarket PCCB suppliers in germany.
I am curious about the OEM price comparo for the '10.
Maybe the new iron rotors will be much more expensive, but than some after market supplier will jump in and offer a cheaper, slotted solution eventually.
Probably more difficult and more expensive to do with 15" rotors though....
Maybe the delta will get smaller in the future. I think there are aftermarket PCCB suppliers in germany.
09-07-2009, 01:20 PM
#25
Nordschleife Master
maybe search sights around the 2008 and 2009 Michelin Supercup series. All cars ran PCCB last year and are currently doing the same this season.
FYI: These are the required part numbers for all cars in the series. Since there are expected to be in more than one race, all rotors go through tech before each race.
FL 997.351.431.91,
FR 997.351.432.91,
RL 997.352.425.94,
RR 997.352.426.94)
And looking at the regs: the front height is 68mm!!! with the rear @ 115mm. and they must keep the Sachs struts that are delivered with the car.
FYI: These are the required part numbers for all cars in the series. Since there are expected to be in more than one race, all rotors go through tech before each race.
FL 997.351.431.91,
FR 997.351.432.91,
RL 997.352.425.94,
RR 997.352.426.94)
And looking at the regs: the front height is 68mm!!! with the rear @ 115mm. and they must keep the Sachs struts that are delivered with the car.
Last edited by roberga; 09-07-2009 at 01:37 PM.
09-07-2009, 03:32 PM
#28
09-07-2009, 06:02 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
PCCB's are great, regardless if you track them or not. Initially I thought that I would replace them with slotted steel rotors; however, I have changed my mind and will always opt for this set up. The initial bite, the unsprung weight, and the reduction in brake dust are all worth the extra expense.
09-07-2009, 07:28 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
PCCB's are great, regardless if you track them or not. Initially I thought that I would replace them with slotted steel rotors; however, I have changed my mind and will always opt for this set up. The initial bite, the unsprung weight, and the reduction in brake dust are all worth the extra expense.
Does anybody know what are going prices for replacement rotors - ceramics and latest gen iron?