Best 997GT2 intercooler
09-28-2009, 12:14 PM
#121
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For you Prche951 and others who may be interested:
Talk on (predominantly) 6bling about intercoolers and their functions sometimes seems to miss the point of their real value. Point in case being Prsche951's thinking that THE benefit of a Secan intercooler was that it would "survive" a 24 hour race where other intercoolers may "break" in some way !!
The point about the 24 hour race is that the engine gets properly hot during this sort of endurance racing and the heat inevitably leads to the highest possible intake air temperatures IATs.
High IATs reduce power dramatically on a turbo engine. In the old days pre Motronic the power would reduce simply because the IAT was hot and there were less air molecules in the air used for combustion so by definition a cooler IAT would have more air molecules and give a better (more powerful) combustion.
The latest engines are even cleverer with IAT and the Motronic retards the timing as certain IAT thresholds are hit. It also reduces the boost as IAT thresholds are hit.
See my chart below, this is for my 993tt engine and is how that was programmed to adjust for IAT increases, you can clearly see that by 37.5DegC IAT the timing is being retarded - this means LESS POWER but this engine runs a Secan which can keep the IATs below this 37.5DegC most of the time.
These more modern engines work to different numbers, Gene mentioned 55DegC IAT before the timing starts to be retarded but 55DegC is pretty easy to hit, particularly in warmer climes...
Better intercoolers will improve the performance of most tuned tts and very good performing intercoolers whose performance is known can be "tuned for" but the skill of the mapper must be to keep the IAT within the optimum timing and boost "zone" . Personally I struggle to see how this can be done on a chassis dyno unless there is some very clever cooling arrangements which can mimic fast road conditions but I'm sure there are innovative individuals who can tune for better intercooling.....
As for seeing chassis dyno graphs for improvements made by intercoolers ? I really don't get that one..... That really is pandering to the ignorant rather than trying to educate but it seems that is what the market demands !
Why don't prospective intercooler/ECU tune purchasers ask their "tuner" to provide a printout just like above so they can see at what IAT they start to lose power (ie timing retard) then they can quite easily test the "tune" they have purchased by hooking up a Durametric and logging their cars IATs under different conditions - try asking your "tuner" and see the depth of "tuning" which is really being done
Talk on (predominantly) 6bling about intercoolers and their functions sometimes seems to miss the point of their real value. Point in case being Prsche951's thinking that THE benefit of a Secan intercooler was that it would "survive" a 24 hour race where other intercoolers may "break" in some way !!
The point about the 24 hour race is that the engine gets properly hot during this sort of endurance racing and the heat inevitably leads to the highest possible intake air temperatures IATs.
High IATs reduce power dramatically on a turbo engine. In the old days pre Motronic the power would reduce simply because the IAT was hot and there were less air molecules in the air used for combustion so by definition a cooler IAT would have more air molecules and give a better (more powerful) combustion.
The latest engines are even cleverer with IAT and the Motronic retards the timing as certain IAT thresholds are hit. It also reduces the boost as IAT thresholds are hit.
See my chart below, this is for my 993tt engine and is how that was programmed to adjust for IAT increases, you can clearly see that by 37.5DegC IAT the timing is being retarded - this means LESS POWER but this engine runs a Secan which can keep the IATs below this 37.5DegC most of the time.
These more modern engines work to different numbers, Gene mentioned 55DegC IAT before the timing starts to be retarded but 55DegC is pretty easy to hit, particularly in warmer climes...
Better intercoolers will improve the performance of most tuned tts and very good performing intercoolers whose performance is known can be "tuned for" but the skill of the mapper must be to keep the IAT within the optimum timing and boost "zone" . Personally I struggle to see how this can be done on a chassis dyno unless there is some very clever cooling arrangements which can mimic fast road conditions but I'm sure there are innovative individuals who can tune for better intercooling.....
As for seeing chassis dyno graphs for improvements made by intercoolers ? I really don't get that one..... That really is pandering to the ignorant rather than trying to educate but it seems that is what the market demands !
Why don't prospective intercooler/ECU tune purchasers ask their "tuner" to provide a printout just like above so they can see at what IAT they start to lose power (ie timing retard) then they can quite easily test the "tune" they have purchased by hooking up a Durametric and logging their cars IATs under different conditions - try asking your "tuner" and see the depth of "tuning" which is really being done
09-28-2009, 12:19 PM
#122
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Toby, I brought it over here, because you brought it first. if you had left the 6 speed thread out of this discussion, then I would not be responding. But you quoted me so I had to respond.
Yes, I will say that since you had the awes in hand comparison testing would have been good. but you choose not to, fine. my second post here stated that ALL the mfg's should do comparative testing. Again, you can continue to attempt to change direction by argueing about other issues, and you can continue to provide your results, which are definitely worth looking at on an individual basis. However, until there are comparative points discussed, it is moot.
As for cars going over 130mph, yes, in america that does happen. Ever heard of the Texas mile. How about VIR, Laguna Seca, and a myriad of other tracks where you can hit over 130 easily. You seem to think that all we do is run the 1/4 mile. Yes, that is a good way to measure horsepower, instead of a dyno which does not give you true conditions on the road that affect a car.
The turbo that went 231 mph in the Texas mile did it on Evoms sport IC's. Do you think secans would have made it better? Maybe, Maybe not, but it is moot, until it is compared in the same venue. Do you understand that?
Yes, I will say that since you had the awes in hand comparison testing would have been good. but you choose not to, fine. my second post here stated that ALL the mfg's should do comparative testing. Again, you can continue to attempt to change direction by argueing about other issues, and you can continue to provide your results, which are definitely worth looking at on an individual basis. However, until there are comparative points discussed, it is moot.
As for cars going over 130mph, yes, in america that does happen. Ever heard of the Texas mile. How about VIR, Laguna Seca, and a myriad of other tracks where you can hit over 130 easily. You seem to think that all we do is run the 1/4 mile. Yes, that is a good way to measure horsepower, instead of a dyno which does not give you true conditions on the road that affect a car.
The turbo that went 231 mph in the Texas mile did it on Evoms sport IC's. Do you think secans would have made it better? Maybe, Maybe not, but it is moot, until it is compared in the same venue. Do you understand that?
09-28-2009, 12:23 PM
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we posted at the same time and I did not see your last post until now. Good info as usual, Toby, and thanks for the info. Again, I agree that tuners, AS WELL AS manufacturers should provide info on their products. Of course durametric can help us there as well.
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10-02-2009, 10:23 AM
#126
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If you read my ramblings (and some real data) on this thread you will see that the GT2 runs pretty hot IATs due to the factory programming which allows boost up to 1.5bar... The factory combo of fueling/timing and expansion manifold works superbly.
I would change the cats (and headers for the price) before embarking on ECU tuning because any new program will immediately come up against too much back pressure from the stock cats.... Here is my engine dyno measurement on the stock engine with Cargraphic headers and CG 200 Cell cats......
Most GT2s come out around 540PS so not really much of a gain but much better throttle response and awesome sound....
If you want to play with the stock programming the Cargraphic RS one would be my choice but you have to fit 100 cell cats with this (which are quite expensive, more so than the 200 cell units) and that gives you 600PS/787NM transforming the car. There are a couple of guys on here who have this.
At this level of tune you are at the mercy of heat and in hot weather your IATs will mean reduced power but still an engine dyno thoroughly developed kit which will work just like factory but more....
I think GIAC do a flash available from AWE and EVOMS also have tunes on their site they sell theirs with the Cargraphic 200 cell cats I believe , never heard or seen proper data about the performance but worth maybe considering particularly if you have a local tuner running their wares.....
BTW If you want to go the 200 Cell cat route I have a set of Cargraphics which I took off when I moved to 100 cell, they are in perfect condition.......
10-03-2009, 08:59 AM
#127
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Thanks Toby, can the 200 or 100 cell cats be bolts in ? or does the original exhaust need to cut and welded? Much sound difference between the 100 vs 200 cats ? Do you get much droning with the 100 cats?
So the Cargraphic programming only works with 100 cell cats, Correct?
Can you please PM me price for your 200 cell cats.
Cheers Mark
So the Cargraphic programming only works with 100 cell cats, Correct?
Can you please PM me price for your 200 cell cats.
Cheers Mark
10-03-2009, 12:20 PM
#128
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The 100 cell cats have zero issues with programing, no droning, it's not loud at all, straight bolt in!
600 Hp package is perfect, I run 30 min lapping sessions no problems and if I could do it over again I would have gone for the IC package as Toby did.
Why do things twice, Go for a package, at the least 600hp you will regret not doing it!
600 Hp package is perfect, I run 30 min lapping sessions no problems and if I could do it over again I would have gone for the IC package as Toby did.
Why do things twice, Go for a package, at the least 600hp you will regret not doing it!
10-03-2009, 01:13 PM
#129
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The 100 cell cats I had were welded in by RS but I guess Z06 has the Cargraphic ones which are like my 200 cell housing but with 100 cell units. As said zero droning with either.
RS told me the 200 cell cats are HJS and do break down fairly quickly, how quickly I dunno, my take offs are perfect. The 100 cell are also by HJS but about 3 X the price and much higher "race" quality.
The 200 Cell are supposed to be "check engine light" friendly but mine still triggered occasionally (nothing to be bothered about just the flow going out of stock ECU range)
The tuning Z06 has is the one to go for although a much cheaper alternative would be 200 cell cats and US programming..... the way I see it these awesome pinnacle of Porscheness deserve the best
BTW pics of the bolt in cat units can be seen on the Cargraphic website they are a simple bolt in....
RS told me the 200 cell cats are HJS and do break down fairly quickly, how quickly I dunno, my take offs are perfect. The 100 cell are also by HJS but about 3 X the price and much higher "race" quality.
The 200 Cell are supposed to be "check engine light" friendly but mine still triggered occasionally (nothing to be bothered about just the flow going out of stock ECU range)
The tuning Z06 has is the one to go for although a much cheaper alternative would be 200 cell cats and US programming..... the way I see it these awesome pinnacle of Porscheness deserve the best
BTW pics of the bolt in cat units can be seen on the Cargraphic website they are a simple bolt in....
10-03-2009, 02:49 PM
#130
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Cargraphic exhaust headers and 100 cells cats, RS 600hp package, upgraded pressure plate.
Painless installation and the car is just perfect.
As I track the car a few times a year, my only desired improvement is better IC.
The only thing you have to do is enjoy it!
Painless installation and the car is just perfect.
As I track the car a few times a year, my only desired improvement is better IC.
The only thing you have to do is enjoy it!
10-03-2009, 08:35 PM
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Great ! Thanks guys.
So it sounds like the Cargraphic package is the proven path. Hope the 100 or 200 cats provide a great sound (factory is way too quiet) I have a EP II (Loud) on my 996TT and it sounds great. Has anyone put a EP (S2) on a 7GT2 ? or is the additional weight a big negative.
Toby, you also mention US programming. Any difference here?
Cheers
So it sounds like the Cargraphic package is the proven path. Hope the 100 or 200 cats provide a great sound (factory is way too quiet) I have a EP II (Loud) on my 996TT and it sounds great. Has anyone put a EP (S2) on a 7GT2 ? or is the additional weight a big negative.
Toby, you also mention US programming. Any difference here?
Cheers
10-04-2009, 05:28 AM
#132
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Great ! Thanks guys.
So it sounds like the Cargraphic package is the proven path. Hope the 100 or 200 cats provide a great sound (factory is way too quiet) I have a EP II (Loud) on my 996TT and it sounds great. Has anyone put a EP (S2) on a 7GT2 ? or is the additional weight a big negative.
So it sounds like the Cargraphic package is the proven path. Hope the 100 or 200 cats provide a great sound (factory is way too quiet) I have a EP II (Loud) on my 996TT and it sounds great. Has anyone put a EP (S2) on a 7GT2 ? or is the additional weight a big negative.
You are asking the wrong person here, I am far too far gone...... but IMO you have to look at the credientials and equipment used by the Tuners.
RS are THE Porsche turbo race engine gurus period and use expensive engine dyno (same brand as used by Ferrari F1) with their own bespoke software - ALL mapping is done on said rig using bespoke water cooled intercooler for accurately controlling IAT. Actual simulated operating conditions and loadings are all based on the experiences of the limitations whose values gained on the race track. Partnerships with Bosch,Porsche MS and KKK for racing means they are at the cutting edge.
Their current "ultimate" stuff is using special parts, 4.1/4.2 litre higher compression turbo engines with 800hp at 1 bar !!! and Euro 5 compliance but at crazy money......
Writing a program (like the one I have on my new 660PS engine) for a new configuration of components takes 2 days on the engine dyno. It is the thousands of non full load points which need to be addressed before the program is signed off - it is (Porsche) manufacturer standard but with the race experience built in.....
I really do not know enough about GIAC and EVO to comment but I guess one should compare their experience (race) and facilities to make a call on it...... When price/performance comes heavily into it I can see that an alternative (to RS) "tuner" may provide enough for some satisfaction..... but these are £135K cars and deserve the best IMVHO
10-05-2009, 09:25 AM
#133
Hello TB993TT,
just for us to clear all, since i think you are the one who best knows the european tuner can you say us which one uses other products?
eg: Edo competition, cargraphic uses RS Tuning Packages
What about other like :
Gemballa , FVD, Speedart uses M&M exhausts for their packages
Techart uses supersprint exhausts.... (not for GT street and gt street RS packages as far as i know)...
could you provide us some of those "scoops".
Thanks
just for us to clear all, since i think you are the one who best knows the european tuner can you say us which one uses other products?
eg: Edo competition, cargraphic uses RS Tuning Packages
What about other like :
Gemballa , FVD, Speedart uses M&M exhausts for their packages
Techart uses supersprint exhausts.... (not for GT street and gt street RS packages as far as i know)...
could you provide us some of those "scoops".
Thanks
10-05-2009, 01:37 PM
#134
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Jiaim
I'm not certain exactly what you are asking ?
The guys behind the tuning companies you mention are all marketeers (like Edo and CG) whereas RS Tuning is Reinhold Schmirler and he himself does a lot of the wrenching and is heavily involved in all the engine dyno tuning and component development (although he has a professional electronic guy working for him) and personally signs off every build's dyno sheet...
Other guys in Europe who do simlar to RS are:
Ansgar Weiser who programs for Manthey and many others using his own Maha dyno
Gunther Mandl who I think is with Sportec
Pierre Offskey (who used to work with RS)
Ruf..... doesn't do spanner work but is still quite involved in engine work
I'm not certain exactly what you are asking ?
The guys behind the tuning companies you mention are all marketeers (like Edo and CG) whereas RS Tuning is Reinhold Schmirler and he himself does a lot of the wrenching and is heavily involved in all the engine dyno tuning and component development (although he has a professional electronic guy working for him) and personally signs off every build's dyno sheet...
Other guys in Europe who do simlar to RS are:
Ansgar Weiser who programs for Manthey and many others using his own Maha dyno
Gunther Mandl who I think is with Sportec
Pierre Offskey (who used to work with RS)
Ruf..... doesn't do spanner work but is still quite involved in engine work
10-05-2009, 03:39 PM
#135
Jiaim
I'm not certain exactly what you are asking ?
The guys behind the tuning companies you mention are all marketeers (like Edo and CG) whereas RS Tuning is Reinhold Schmirler and he himself does a lot of the wrenching and is heavily involved in all the engine dyno tuning and component development (although he has a professional electronic guy working for him) and personally signs off every build's dyno sheet...
Other guys in Europe who do simlar to RS are:
Ansgar Weiser who programs for Manthey and many others using his own Maha dyno
Gunther Mandl who I think is with Sportec
Pierre Offskey (who used to work with RS)
Ruf..... doesn't do spanner work but is still quite involved in engine work
I'm not certain exactly what you are asking ?
The guys behind the tuning companies you mention are all marketeers (like Edo and CG) whereas RS Tuning is Reinhold Schmirler and he himself does a lot of the wrenching and is heavily involved in all the engine dyno tuning and component development (although he has a professional electronic guy working for him) and personally signs off every build's dyno sheet...
Other guys in Europe who do simlar to RS are:
Ansgar Weiser who programs for Manthey and many others using his own Maha dyno
Gunther Mandl who I think is with Sportec
Pierre Offskey (who used to work with RS)
Ruf..... doesn't do spanner work but is still quite involved in engine work
same for parts furnitures i asked for...
sorry but i can't clear up what i want to ask i just can't express that in english
