A.W.E. Tuning - 997 GT2 Product Development - 14 October 2008
11-07-2008, 11:07 PM
#46
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Good discussion.
While debates over chassis dyno vs. engine dyno have been going on forever, and several of those threads turned up sour in the last couple of years due to the lack of 100% solid data to support either opinion.
There have been many learnings though and one of them is TB's line here, whereby if your dyno curve shows numbers that are lower than quoted by factory for example at the lower end of the RPM scale and then pick up higher at high RPMs, it defnitely means that the dyno run is not being performed under the same load as what Porsche factory and some other do.
From an IC perspective strictly (not the whole kit), IC efficiency must be tested on the road that's for sure, and I would even go further to say not in a high speed run, but rather in a couple of laps of your favourite track in summer ( I am sure Eclou would love to be the tester
), this is were you will really see the efficiency differences, this is where a Secan shines for example and creates a huge gap vs competitors. These ICs might be very good, but we will not know for sure until a real life test has been performed and compared vs. stock on a 997. The whole kit works very well for its intended usage, that seems to be not a debate at all. 
Concerning torque and Hp differences and testing, the one way that is hard to beat (and cheaper than a dyno!) though is real road testing with a datalogger, but I am not talking about 60-130mph runs!! Taken a step further, extrapolating exact torque and HP numbers from those datalogs. Some of the dataloggers out there provide those calculations, however I prefer to do it manually using formulas that I can validate, rather than relying on the tool.
The result is certainly more accurate than any dyno number as it uses simple straightforward motion dynamics formulas and you can factor every variable like weight, drag, rolling resistence, tire sizes, gearing, and slope if you wish. I have tested this over dozens of factory cars and other tuner cars, and you can very clearly see why a 1000Rwhp car performs like another 700FWHP car, as clear as water. There are no interpretations or subjectivity, as long as the weight and gearing are accurate.
The chart below shows my test of a 997GT2 from 50-160mph done 4 months ago going through the gears (3rd-6th). It was made with 2 persons on board and in 110F temps. Weight has been adjusted. The curves that you see are within a limited RPM range unfortunately, but they do provide valuable data. I have not had time to compare the numbers against the factory dyno, but what you see here is what these cars torque and HP curves are, once that car is on the road. Allowing for cooler temps, maybe they could have been a bit better, but the 100-200kph times obtained (circa 7.25s) tell me that we are very close to factory numbers If I am not mistaken, (I have not verified)
A measure of how much a dyno run is loaded or not can be directly extrapolated from this diagram, if you are showing lower torque at same RPMs on your dyno and then higher numbers later in the RPM range, you know your dyno is not loading enough to replicate real life conditions.
These numbers are at the rear wheels, they are therefore free of corrections, which makes them more comparable to chassis dynos.
Some peaks (up or down) should be discarded as these are parasitic aberrations, one should look at trends and average between peaks across RPMs.
And here is the run with the stock 997GT2:
While debates over chassis dyno vs. engine dyno have been going on forever, and several of those threads turned up sour in the last couple of years due to the lack of 100% solid data to support either opinion.
There have been many learnings though and one of them is TB's line here, whereby if your dyno curve shows numbers that are lower than quoted by factory for example at the lower end of the RPM scale and then pick up higher at high RPMs, it defnitely means that the dyno run is not being performed under the same load as what Porsche factory and some other do.
From an IC perspective strictly (not the whole kit), IC efficiency must be tested on the road that's for sure, and I would even go further to say not in a high speed run, but rather in a couple of laps of your favourite track in summer ( I am sure Eclou would love to be the tester
), this is were you will really see the efficiency differences, this is where a Secan shines for example and creates a huge gap vs competitors. These ICs might be very good, but we will not know for sure until a real life test has been performed and compared vs. stock on a 997. The whole kit works very well for its intended usage, that seems to be not a debate at all. Concerning torque and Hp differences and testing, the one way that is hard to beat (and cheaper than a dyno!) though is real road testing with a datalogger, but I am not talking about 60-130mph runs!! Taken a step further, extrapolating exact torque and HP numbers from those datalogs. Some of the dataloggers out there provide those calculations, however I prefer to do it manually using formulas that I can validate, rather than relying on the tool.
The result is certainly more accurate than any dyno number as it uses simple straightforward motion dynamics formulas and you can factor every variable like weight, drag, rolling resistence, tire sizes, gearing, and slope if you wish. I have tested this over dozens of factory cars and other tuner cars, and you can very clearly see why a 1000Rwhp car performs like another 700FWHP car, as clear as water. There are no interpretations or subjectivity, as long as the weight and gearing are accurate.
The chart below shows my test of a 997GT2 from 50-160mph done 4 months ago going through the gears (3rd-6th). It was made with 2 persons on board and in 110F temps. Weight has been adjusted. The curves that you see are within a limited RPM range unfortunately, but they do provide valuable data. I have not had time to compare the numbers against the factory dyno, but what you see here is what these cars torque and HP curves are, once that car is on the road. Allowing for cooler temps, maybe they could have been a bit better, but the 100-200kph times obtained (circa 7.25s) tell me that we are very close to factory numbers If I am not mistaken, (I have not verified)
A measure of how much a dyno run is loaded or not can be directly extrapolated from this diagram, if you are showing lower torque at same RPMs on your dyno and then higher numbers later in the RPM range, you know your dyno is not loading enough to replicate real life conditions.
These numbers are at the rear wheels, they are therefore free of corrections, which makes them more comparable to chassis dynos.
Some peaks (up or down) should be discarded as these are parasitic aberrations, one should look at trends and average between peaks across RPMs.
And here is the run with the stock 997GT2:
12-24-2008, 10:40 AM
#48
Instructor
Hi Toby,
I see from your avatar that the GT2 has arrived. Congrats!
We are currently building muffler stock so we can do a public release in the next few weeks. Tips and cat sections are being completed. Headers are also a few weeks out. Intercoolers and software are ready to go. We have to build a section of our website but we re taking pre-orders now.
Muffler will be $4995. Add $150 for Diamond Black nickel plated tips.
Intercoolers are $2995 with choice of blue, black, or red hoses.
Headers are $1795.
G.I.A.C. software is $3500.
Some pics of the completed muffler system:
Any questions, let us know.
I see from your avatar that the GT2 has arrived. Congrats!
We are currently building muffler stock so we can do a public release in the next few weeks. Tips and cat sections are being completed. Headers are also a few weeks out. Intercoolers and software are ready to go. We have to build a section of our website but we re taking pre-orders now.
Muffler will be $4995. Add $150 for Diamond Black nickel plated tips.
Intercoolers are $2995 with choice of blue, black, or red hoses.
Headers are $1795.
G.I.A.C. software is $3500.
Some pics of the completed muffler system:
Any questions, let us know.
12-24-2008, 12:12 PM
#49
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Hi Todd, thanks for the congrats 
The exhaust looks very pretty, have you done any testing comparing the stock GT2 exhaust + 200 cell cats compared to your new one ? I note that EVO offer the Cargraphic cats with their GT2 packages.... It would take a big improvement to get owners to ditch their beautiful hi tech Akrapovic's IMO....
Did you manage to run any acceleration data with the red GT2 ?
The exhaust looks very pretty, have you done any testing comparing the stock GT2 exhaust + 200 cell cats compared to your new one ? I note that EVO offer the Cargraphic cats with their GT2 packages.... It would take a big improvement to get owners to ditch their beautiful hi tech Akrapovic's IMO....
Did you manage to run any acceleration data with the red GT2 ?
12-24-2008, 12:24 PM
#50
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
2 observations:
red boost hoses connected to new IC's I am guessing?
ceramic coated headers?
system looks very light in weight, with your signature flared post-turbine/pre-cat chamber
red boost hoses connected to new IC's I am guessing?
ceramic coated headers?
system looks very light in weight, with your signature flared post-turbine/pre-cat chamber
12-24-2008, 12:31 PM
#51
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Didn't I read somewhere (on the AWE web site I think) that testing had shown ceramic coating to offer no benefit ? So maybe it is there simply because it can be ?
The piping on the exhaust is huge diameter, how does that work with the generic Giac program ? I know it is great for the top end but what about lower down the rev range ? I know that RS Tuning always program specifically for the exhaust used and this one is not the one GMG (sp) used on the GIAC car is it
The piping on the exhaust is huge diameter, how does that work with the generic Giac program ? I know it is great for the top end but what about lower down the rev range ? I know that RS Tuning always program specifically for the exhaust used and this one is not the one GMG (sp) used on the GIAC car is it
12-24-2008, 01:00 PM
#52
user
Thread Starter
Yes, IC's for the GT2 are the same. The customer opted for the red hoses. We have blue, red, and black available...
Those headers were taken off of our shop car for testing on the 997TT. That is why they were coated. The coated headers were tested back to back with uncoated headers.
Difference? NADA.
Save your money if you are thinking of coating...
Difference? NADA.
Save your money if you are thinking of coating...
01-02-2009, 06:33 PM
#56
Instructor
Our total system weighs in just 5lbs more than the total stock system.
We'll be launching the site section next week, along with a short video.
