Would you buy a facelift 997 GT3 or RS without a GT1 motor for track use??
06-20-2008, 09:48 AM
#33
My $.02......
-Never ceases to amaze me how upset people get about a "what-if" conversation ! Logic would say that Porsche would stay with the 964/GT1 case as this is what they've used through 996 GT3 1&2 and 997 GT3 Mk1...why change mid-stream ?
-As a P-car owner for 28+ years (from 72 911S to 07 GT3) I must say that while I cringe at the thought of moving away from the 964 case, the current car is FAR from perfect...multiple RMS leaks, coolant leaks, windshield washer leaks, etc. My car has 1700 miles, engine already out twice for coolant and RMS leaks and now RMS leaking again. A first time Porsche owner would likely say this engine is a piece of ****
Bill
-Never ceases to amaze me how upset people get about a "what-if" conversation ! Logic would say that Porsche would stay with the 964/GT1 case as this is what they've used through 996 GT3 1&2 and 997 GT3 Mk1...why change mid-stream ?
-As a P-car owner for 28+ years (from 72 911S to 07 GT3) I must say that while I cringe at the thought of moving away from the 964 case, the current car is FAR from perfect...multiple RMS leaks, coolant leaks, windshield washer leaks, etc. My car has 1700 miles, engine already out twice for coolant and RMS leaks and now RMS leaking again. A first time Porsche owner would likely say this engine is a piece of ****
Bill
06-20-2008, 11:11 AM
#34
My $.02......
-Never ceases to amaze me how upset people get about a "what-if" conversation ! Logic would say that Porsche would stay with the 964/GT1 case as this is what they've used through 996 GT3 1&2 and 997 GT3 Mk1...why change mid-stream ?
-As a P-car owner for 28+ years (from 72 911S to 07 GT3) I must say that while I cringe at the thought of moving away from the 964 case, the current car is FAR from perfect...multiple RMS leaks, coolant leaks, windshield washer leaks, etc. My car has 1700 miles, engine already out twice for coolant and RMS leaks and now RMS leaking again. A first time Porsche owner would likely say this engine is a piece of ****
Bill
-Never ceases to amaze me how upset people get about a "what-if" conversation ! Logic would say that Porsche would stay with the 964/GT1 case as this is what they've used through 996 GT3 1&2 and 997 GT3 Mk1...why change mid-stream ?
-As a P-car owner for 28+ years (from 72 911S to 07 GT3) I must say that while I cringe at the thought of moving away from the 964 case, the current car is FAR from perfect...multiple RMS leaks, coolant leaks, windshield washer leaks, etc. My car has 1700 miles, engine already out twice for coolant and RMS leaks and now RMS leaking again. A first time Porsche owner would likely say this engine is a piece of ****
Bill
06-20-2008, 12:00 PM
#35
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Lifetime Rennlist
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BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Porsche brought up the possiblity of eliminating the 964 case. We are reacting to it
thats all. Why dont you guys go the the Fchat board and talk about NOT driving your cars!
06-20-2008, 12:22 PM
#36
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
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Guys,
I am all for new technology. The current GT engine is complex, heavy and costly to build and repair. Back in the days of the 365 the famous 4 cam Furhman engine was also complex, expensive and almost nobody could repair them. Porsche moved on with higher performance engines and the 4 cammer is now a historical oddity.
As someone pointed out, the current engine is far from perfect. It seems that every 997 GT3 has an RMS issue sooner or later. Is it because the engine has reached its limits? It is also too heavy, we all want lighter cars.
I am confident that whatever Porsche fits to the next gen GT3 will be track worthy. They need to do something to keep up the Ferrari and soon BMW. Who knows, maybe a new design (since we are speculating) can go to 4 liters or more. That would go a long way towards equalizing the F430 and M3 V8 advantage.
Best,
I am all for new technology. The current GT engine is complex, heavy and costly to build and repair. Back in the days of the 365 the famous 4 cam Furhman engine was also complex, expensive and almost nobody could repair them. Porsche moved on with higher performance engines and the 4 cammer is now a historical oddity.
As someone pointed out, the current engine is far from perfect. It seems that every 997 GT3 has an RMS issue sooner or later. Is it because the engine has reached its limits? It is also too heavy, we all want lighter cars.
I am confident that whatever Porsche fits to the next gen GT3 will be track worthy. They need to do something to keep up the Ferrari and soon BMW. Who knows, maybe a new design (since we are speculating) can go to 4 liters or more. That would go a long way towards equalizing the F430 and M3 V8 advantage.
Best,
06-20-2008, 12:23 PM
#37
guess what BUCKING and WSH? this is a FORUM. We TALK about cars. You can pose what ever speculative questions we want. Thats the WHOLE purpose of a Forum. Whats Cool about it is if you DONT like it you dont have to open the thread or buy the marque!!
Porsche brought up the possiblity of eliminating the 964 case. We are reacting to it
thats all. Why dont you guys go the the Fchat board and talk about NOT driving your cars!
Porsche brought up the possiblity of eliminating the 964 case. We are reacting to it
thats all. Why dont you guys go the the Fchat board and talk about NOT driving your cars!
Funny
Travel (for business, you know to pay the bills) 5 days a week...focus weekends on family (9 yr old daughter), add 996 Turbo and 1931 Ford Model A (need to drive them too) and you get lack of mileage on GT3. Also, since I paid for the car I can drive as much or little as I please. Still doesnt explain why everything leaks (never a drop of anything from my Turbo in 9k miles)
06-20-2008, 01:11 PM
#38
guess what BUCKING and WSH? this is a FORUM. We TALK about cars. You can pose what ever speculative questions we want. Thats the WHOLE purpose of a Forum. Whats Cool about it is if you DONT like it you dont have to open the thread or buy the marque!!
Porsche brought up the possiblity of eliminating the 964 case. We are reacting to it
thats all. Why dont you guys go the the Fchat board and talk about NOT driving your cars!
Porsche brought up the possiblity of eliminating the 964 case. We are reacting to it
thats all. Why dont you guys go the the Fchat board and talk about NOT driving your cars!
06-20-2008, 07:14 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
My $.02......
-Never ceases to amaze me how upset people get about a "what-if" conversation ! Logic would say that Porsche would stay with the 964/GT1 case as this is what they've used through 996 GT3 1&2 and 997 GT3 Mk1...why change mid-stream ?
-As a P-car owner for 28+ years (from 72 911S to 07 GT3) I must say that while I cringe at the thought of moving away from the 964 case, the current car is FAR from perfect...multiple RMS leaks, coolant leaks, windshield washer leaks, etc. My car has 1700 miles, engine already out twice for coolant and RMS leaks and now RMS leaking again. A first time Porsche owner would likely say this engine is a piece of ****
Bill
-Never ceases to amaze me how upset people get about a "what-if" conversation ! Logic would say that Porsche would stay with the 964/GT1 case as this is what they've used through 996 GT3 1&2 and 997 GT3 Mk1...why change mid-stream ?
-As a P-car owner for 28+ years (from 72 911S to 07 GT3) I must say that while I cringe at the thought of moving away from the 964 case, the current car is FAR from perfect...multiple RMS leaks, coolant leaks, windshield washer leaks, etc. My car has 1700 miles, engine already out twice for coolant and RMS leaks and now RMS leaking again. A first time Porsche owner would likely say this engine is a piece of ****
Bill
Whoa!!! Are you serious? Is it normal for them to have so many other leaks??? I knew about the RMS leak and was hoping that after 10 years and several attempts some bozo engineer at Porsche might get it right! But water leaks and crap too??? Is it wishful thinking on my part to think that i'd be buying a trouble free 911?
Chris
06-20-2008, 10:17 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
I am confident that whatever Porsche fits to the next gen GT3 will be track worthy. They need to do something to keep up the Ferrari and soon BMW. Who knows, maybe a new design (since we are speculating) can go to 4 liters or more. That would go a long way towards equalizing the F430 and M3 V8 advantage.
06-21-2008, 12:32 AM
#42
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i have quite a few comments to make. first off, im ashamed that porsche owners of the most prestigiously ranked car in the world in my eyes are bickering over an engine block. dont worry about wether the new engine will proove itself or not. as a race car driver, studying mechanical engineer, porsche enthusiast and as your loyal friend i will tell you that the new GT1 block will be just as good as the old one. its the same case, different internals and head design. there is a picture of it in the new 997 on the porsche web site, there is an article in total 911, on drivers republic, and numerous other sources, so gentlemen, please trust porsche in developing the car that has been winning in motorsports for the past 45 years 
also, has it occured to anyone that just because a car withstands a 24 hour test does not necissarily mean its engine is reliable? look at mazda in the 24 hours of daytona this year. they took pole in the GT class in the rolex grand am at daytona. but they also have reported numerous engine failures throughout the season and in the past. now mazda RX8's use rotary engines so they are a little different, but still my analogy is justified. also for anyone who did (and did not watch) the 24 hrs of le mans this year, the two leading porsche contenders went out before the 2 hour mark! how can a new engine proove its reliability if things like that happen? it is racing, with race cars, and it is expensive and things break we know this because God made out universe imperfect. the first time i ever raced a car with skip barber down at sebring i broke two different cars. first a front wheel bearing and then the clutch line ruptured.
as for the GT3 - i envy you all so much, youre all blessed with amazing cars. id give anything (within reason) for a piece of crap that leaks all over my garage and costs thousands of dollars to replace. its worth it to me, when i am financially ready, i promise you all ill get the newest gt3, and if it breaks, ill go to pelican parts or the porsche dealer, buy the part, and put it in myself. thats what ive done with my boxster s, (2001, 95k miles) and ive saved myself 17k$ in labor and so on. ive had to replace the coolant lines and reservoire, struts, tie rods, wheel bearings, a few oil changes, a flywheel, a clutch, soon a convertible top, a windshield wiper reservoire assembly, a front left fender and bi-xenon headlamp, and even the cup holders from HADES...... >: (
but i love driving the car, and despite all of the work, i love it because i know that now its reliable. my parents bought it used, and probably the reason ive had to do so much with it was the way the first owner drove it. you all know that you should change and add oil more frequently when you buy a new engine, ESPECIALLY a high-compression racing engine like the M96 in the 997 gt3, right? and you know that ideally you should not break it in with highway miles? throttle the engine up and down smoothly, not too much agression or you could damage internal bits and seals with the microburrs that still reside in the engine after manufacture. if anyone needs help breaking in a GT3 engine, please let me know. ill do it for free
heres to us all looking foreward to the new 997 GT3 with the amazing wet sump, DFI, and other technological advances that will help we porsche owners consistently and continuously spank ferrari, corvette, spyker, audi, nissan, and other sports car owners at our drivers ed, track day, auto-x and club racing events
cheers,
christian funk
space coast PCA
also, has it occured to anyone that just because a car withstands a 24 hour test does not necissarily mean its engine is reliable? look at mazda in the 24 hours of daytona this year. they took pole in the GT class in the rolex grand am at daytona. but they also have reported numerous engine failures throughout the season and in the past. now mazda RX8's use rotary engines so they are a little different, but still my analogy is justified. also for anyone who did (and did not watch) the 24 hrs of le mans this year, the two leading porsche contenders went out before the 2 hour mark! how can a new engine proove its reliability if things like that happen? it is racing, with race cars, and it is expensive and things break
we know this because God made out universe imperfect. the first time i ever raced a car with skip barber down at sebring i broke two different cars. first a front wheel bearing and then the clutch line ruptured.as for the GT3 - i envy you all so much, youre all blessed with amazing cars. id give anything (within reason) for a piece of crap that leaks all over my garage and costs thousands of dollars to replace. its worth it to me, when i am financially ready, i promise you all ill get the newest gt3, and if it breaks, ill go to pelican parts or the porsche dealer, buy the part, and put it in myself. thats what ive done with my boxster s, (2001, 95k miles) and ive saved myself 17k$ in labor and so on. ive had to replace the coolant lines and reservoire, struts, tie rods, wheel bearings, a few oil changes, a flywheel, a clutch, soon a convertible top, a windshield wiper reservoire assembly, a front left fender and bi-xenon headlamp, and even the cup holders from HADES...... >: (
but i love driving the car, and despite all of the work, i love it because i know that now its reliable. my parents bought it used, and probably the reason ive had to do so much with it was the way the first owner drove it. you all know that you should change and add oil more frequently when you buy a new engine, ESPECIALLY a high-compression racing engine like the M96 in the 997 gt3, right? and you know that ideally you should not break it in with highway miles? throttle the engine up and down smoothly, not too much agression or you could damage internal bits and seals with the microburrs that still reside in the engine after manufacture. if anyone needs help breaking in a GT3 engine, please let me know. ill do it for free
heres to us all looking foreward to the new 997 GT3 with the amazing wet sump, DFI, and other technological advances that will help we porsche owners consistently and continuously spank ferrari, corvette, spyker, audi, nissan, and other sports car owners at our drivers ed, track day, auto-x and club racing events
cheers,
christian funk
space coast PCA
06-21-2008, 06:20 AM
#43
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
i have quite a few comments to make. first off, im ashamed that porsche owners of the most prestigiously ranked car in the world in my eyes are bickering over an engine block. dont worry about wether the new engine will proove itself or not. as a race car driver, studying mechanical engineer, porsche enthusiast and as your loyal friend i will tell you that the new GT1 block will be just as good as the old one. its the same case, different internals and head design. there is a picture of it in the new 997 on the porsche web site, there is an article in total 911, on drivers republic, and numerous other sources, so gentlemen, please trust porsche in developing the car that has been winning in motorsports for the past 45 years
also, has it occured to anyone that just because a car withstands a 24 hour test does not necissarily mean its engine is reliable? look at mazda in the 24 hours of daytona this year. they took pole in the GT class in the rolex grand am at daytona. but they also have reported numerous engine failures throughout the season and in the past. now mazda RX8's use rotary engines so they are a little different, but still my analogy is justified. also for anyone who did (and did not watch) the 24 hrs of le mans this year, the two leading porsche contenders went out before the 2 hour mark! how can a new engine proove its reliability if things like that happen? it is racing, with race cars, and it is expensive and things break we know this because God made out universe imperfect. the first time i ever raced a car with skip barber down at sebring i broke two different cars. first a front wheel bearing and then the clutch line ruptured.
as for the GT3 - i envy you all so much, youre all blessed with amazing cars. id give anything (within reason) for a piece of crap that leaks all over my garage and costs thousands of dollars to replace. its worth it to me, when i am financially ready, i promise you all ill get the newest gt3, and if it breaks, ill go to pelican parts or the porsche dealer, buy the part, and put it in myself. thats what ive done with my boxster s, (2001, 95k miles) and ive saved myself 17k$ in labor and so on. ive had to replace the coolant lines and reservoire, struts, tie rods, wheel bearings, a few oil changes, a flywheel, a clutch, soon a convertible top, a windshield wiper reservoire assembly, a front left fender and bi-xenon headlamp, and even the cup holders from HADES...... >: (
but i love driving the car, and despite all of the work, i love it because i know that now its reliable. my parents bought it used, and probably the reason ive had to do so much with it was the way the first owner drove it. you all know that you should change and add oil more frequently when you buy a new engine, ESPECIALLY a high-compression racing engine like the M96 in the 997 gt3, right? and you know that ideally you should not break it in with highway miles? throttle the engine up and down smoothly, not too much agression or you could damage internal bits and seals with the microburrs that still reside in the engine after manufacture. if anyone needs help breaking in a GT3 engine, please let me know. ill do it for free
heres to us all looking foreward to the new 997 GT3 with the amazing wet sump, DFI, and other technological advances that will help we porsche owners consistently and continuously spank ferrari, corvette, spyker, audi, nissan, and other sports car owners at our drivers ed, track day, auto-x and club racing events
cheers,
christian funk
space coast PCA
also, has it occured to anyone that just because a car withstands a 24 hour test does not necissarily mean its engine is reliable? look at mazda in the 24 hours of daytona this year. they took pole in the GT class in the rolex grand am at daytona. but they also have reported numerous engine failures throughout the season and in the past. now mazda RX8's use rotary engines so they are a little different, but still my analogy is justified. also for anyone who did (and did not watch) the 24 hrs of le mans this year, the two leading porsche contenders went out before the 2 hour mark! how can a new engine proove its reliability if things like that happen? it is racing, with race cars, and it is expensive and things break
we know this because God made out universe imperfect. the first time i ever raced a car with skip barber down at sebring i broke two different cars. first a front wheel bearing and then the clutch line ruptured.as for the GT3 - i envy you all so much, youre all blessed with amazing cars. id give anything (within reason) for a piece of crap that leaks all over my garage and costs thousands of dollars to replace. its worth it to me, when i am financially ready, i promise you all ill get the newest gt3, and if it breaks, ill go to pelican parts or the porsche dealer, buy the part, and put it in myself. thats what ive done with my boxster s, (2001, 95k miles) and ive saved myself 17k$ in labor and so on. ive had to replace the coolant lines and reservoire, struts, tie rods, wheel bearings, a few oil changes, a flywheel, a clutch, soon a convertible top, a windshield wiper reservoire assembly, a front left fender and bi-xenon headlamp, and even the cup holders from HADES...... >: (
but i love driving the car, and despite all of the work, i love it because i know that now its reliable. my parents bought it used, and probably the reason ive had to do so much with it was the way the first owner drove it. you all know that you should change and add oil more frequently when you buy a new engine, ESPECIALLY a high-compression racing engine like the M96 in the 997 gt3, right? and you know that ideally you should not break it in with highway miles? throttle the engine up and down smoothly, not too much agression or you could damage internal bits and seals with the microburrs that still reside in the engine after manufacture. if anyone needs help breaking in a GT3 engine, please let me know. ill do it for free
heres to us all looking foreward to the new 997 GT3 with the amazing wet sump, DFI, and other technological advances that will help we porsche owners consistently and continuously spank ferrari, corvette, spyker, audi, nissan, and other sports car owners at our drivers ed, track day, auto-x and club racing events
cheers,
christian funk
space coast PCA
Hi Christian, I and other Rennlisters value your opinion but you have nothing to feel ashamed about as we are all entitled to our own opinion. In this case we obviously share differing views on what we expect of a track oriented track car from Porsche. I can only speak for myself but when I am making this sort of purchase, I place a great deal of emphasis on current credentials and achievements and less on unproven claims. I buy something because it is proven to be up to the task and not because it carries a badge or a reputation that goes with it... I don't buy any piece of crap that Porsche AG tosses out of their front door just because they say it'll be great...
Porsche demand a steap price for a 'track oriented' car such as the 'gt3 variants' and even brandish the moto "Origin Motorsport" all over their brochures. I in turn demand from Porsche a car that goes hard, is built tough and reliable and is "proven" to be track worthy. I expect that it will survive in this tougher environment better than a street oriented sportscar and gladly pay the premium for the privilege! And proof is in the pudding! I certainly don't take their word for it....
A race proven motor doesn't mean it will never break down or fail, it means that it is built for the purpose at hand. Furthermore, having run in 24hr enduros doesn't mean the gt1 motor won't ever break down, it means that it has been designed and engineered to have a fighting chance of completing the task at hand, dispite the fact that sh#t happens. My Nissan goes like a gun too and has left a couple Carreras for dead off the line but I know for a fact that it is guaranteed to **** itself after a couple of hours in a Leman race! I don't plan to drive 24hr enduros at my local tracks for fun, however, something built for this purpose and that has consistantly performed well is more likely to tolerate any hard street driving and track days I may through at it far better than a street oriented sportscar. Yes, they are machines; no, we don't live in a perfect world and yes, they will still break down. I just don't want to spend my life working to support and fix my car when it should be spent on more important things like family and living...
As you rightfully pointed out, cars are enjoyed most when driven and therefore I am parting with $$$ to buy a track car with a "proven" motor that I will drive more and curse at less for wasting my time fixing and paying its way!
When Porsche put their money where their mouth is and spend their time and money proving to us that a new engine is up to the task by running it in RSRs or Cup cars with consistant wins or even finishes, I'll gladly buy it- No questions asked. Till then, I'll be happiest with what I know will do the job- the proven, sometimes leaky GT1 motor..
06-21-2008, 03:15 PM
#44
New GT3 engine specification...
It has been suggested that Porsche may have already announced details of the new GT3 engine: it's a 3.6 litre dry-sumped engine with a maximum power output of 440bhp (122.29 bhp/litre), 430Nm of torque and a 8400rpm red-line...
* Porsche GT3 Cup S *
Technical Specifications:
Power Unit
Water-cooled six-cylinder boxer
3,598 cc
Stroke 76.4 mm
Bore 99.98 mm
Max output 440 bhp (324 kW)
Max torque 430 Nm
Max engine speed 8,400 rpm
Four-valve technology
Dry sump lubrication
Two-stage resonance intake distributor
Central air intake
Electronic MS 3.1 engine management
Fuel injection (multi-point, sequential)
Fuel grade 98 RON premium plus unleaded
Transmission
Six-speed gearbox with sequential jaw-type shift
Compressed oil lubrication
Oil/water heat exchanger
Single-mass flywheel
Hydraulic disengagement lever
5.5-inch three-plate carbon-fibre clutch
Limited-slip differential 40/60%
Rear-wheel drive
Source: Porsche AG
...it's also widely recognised as one of the best engine's ever manufactured!
So it may be just a question of whether Porsche offers an option of an alternative transmission (7-speed PDK or perhaps a 6-speed sequential jaw-type shift) to the standard 6-speed manual?!
* Porsche GT3 Cup S *
Technical Specifications:
Power Unit
Water-cooled six-cylinder boxer
3,598 cc
Stroke 76.4 mm
Bore 99.98 mm
Max output 440 bhp (324 kW)
Max torque 430 Nm
Max engine speed 8,400 rpm
Four-valve technology
Dry sump lubrication
Two-stage resonance intake distributor
Central air intake
Electronic MS 3.1 engine management
Fuel injection (multi-point, sequential)
Fuel grade 98 RON premium plus unleaded
Transmission
Six-speed gearbox with sequential jaw-type shift
Compressed oil lubrication
Oil/water heat exchanger
Single-mass flywheel
Hydraulic disengagement lever
5.5-inch three-plate carbon-fibre clutch
Limited-slip differential 40/60%
Rear-wheel drive
Source: Porsche AG
...it's also widely recognised as one of the best engine's ever manufactured!
So it may be just a question of whether Porsche offers an option of an alternative transmission (7-speed PDK or perhaps a 6-speed sequential jaw-type shift) to the standard 6-speed manual?!
