GT2 residuals
05-08-2008, 11:38 PM
#16
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Colm not that I am an expert because I am not but I havent felt the "frenzy" over the GT2 either.
but that may be because of the cost. $200k is not something I think as reasonable and maybe others think the same way. But I talked to my buddy at Carlsen and he told me he got 4 in and all are gone. One is for resale. So maybe there is a little frenzy tempered by the price.
but that may be because of the cost. $200k is not something I think as reasonable and maybe others think the same way. But I talked to my buddy at Carlsen and he told me he got 4 in and all are gone. One is for resale. So maybe there is a little frenzy tempered by the price.
05-09-2008, 12:07 AM
#17
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An interesting issue, the residuals. End of the day the leasing companies have learned their lesson.
The RS came out at the peak of the economic cycle and has stayed strong but the market will bring something new and prices will drop from today's levels. The current economic downturn may bring prices down faster than normal. But you can't argue they have held up very well.
The 996 GT2 came on the heals of the Dot.com spiral, and now the 997 GT2 (at a similar price) comes facing some strong economic headwinds. So to get $30K over is pretty strong, but like the 996 won't last just because of the market. But there are only going to be a few (right), until Porsche answers the dealers request for more cars they can make a killing on, then back to MSRP.
Regardless the GT2 will depreciate, but I don't think it will take as big or as fast a hit as the 996 GT2. That car got no love in the auto press and as such dropped like a rock. If you recall the 996 GT3 came out after and the auto press loved that car and stated again and again no need for the GT2, overpriced, not as good a car.
The new GT2 is all smiles with the press. Faster car, fast as a Carrerra GT, easy to drive, it has all the safety features to protect the drivers from themselves! The RS is still coming out in many articles as the more pure car, but the 997 GT2 is getting press the 996 GT2 never saw.
To me a low milage 996 GT2 at $100K is a steal and a car you will be happy you bought in 15 years. It will be the last "monster" Porsche with no safety net. Not for everyone but an icon none the less. The GT2 offers more raw fun for the street and is a better street car. The RS if you are using it for the track.
55% residual for a 3 year old 997 GT2 which was driven daily (30,000 miles) would be a pretty safe bet and an excellent hedge against the market. If you were going to drive it everyday, why not take the downside out of the equation and simply be able to give it back? And think of the fun of knowing you are going to be driving it everyday! You will get your money's worth!
JCM
The RS came out at the peak of the economic cycle and has stayed strong but the market will bring something new and prices will drop from today's levels. The current economic downturn may bring prices down faster than normal. But you can't argue they have held up very well.
The 996 GT2 came on the heals of the Dot.com spiral, and now the 997 GT2 (at a similar price) comes facing some strong economic headwinds. So to get $30K over is pretty strong, but like the 996 won't last just because of the market. But there are only going to be a few (right), until Porsche answers the dealers request for more cars they can make a killing on, then back to MSRP.
Regardless the GT2 will depreciate, but I don't think it will take as big or as fast a hit as the 996 GT2. That car got no love in the auto press and as such dropped like a rock. If you recall the 996 GT3 came out after and the auto press loved that car and stated again and again no need for the GT2, overpriced, not as good a car.
The new GT2 is all smiles with the press. Faster car, fast as a Carrerra GT, easy to drive, it has all the safety features to protect the drivers from themselves! The RS is still coming out in many articles as the more pure car, but the 997 GT2 is getting press the 996 GT2 never saw.
To me a low milage 996 GT2 at $100K is a steal and a car you will be happy you bought in 15 years. It will be the last "monster" Porsche with no safety net. Not for everyone but an icon none the less. The GT2 offers more raw fun for the street and is a better street car. The RS if you are using it for the track.
55% residual for a 3 year old 997 GT2 which was driven daily (30,000 miles) would be a pretty safe bet and an excellent hedge against the market. If you were going to drive it everyday, why not take the downside out of the equation and simply be able to give it back? And think of the fun of knowing you are going to be driving it everyday! You will get your money's worth!
JCM
05-09-2008, 12:20 AM
#18
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Great analysis SuperCup. But I have a question. If there are only 200 worldwide (where have we heard that before?) does that change your analysis? Or are you counting on Porsche doing what they always do and coming out with another batch? A MkII 997 GT2?
05-09-2008, 12:34 AM
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OG - great question, depending on what information you go by there are around 990, 996 GT2's worldwide and 307 came to NA. So if there really were only 200 997 GT2 wold wide and we got 104 of them, I would expect values to hold up much better. But Porsche can't help themselves (or at least they have not yet). If they can sell 500 or 1,000 I would guess they will press them out the door as fast as the dealers call for them. My guess is there will be 600 -800 out there before they are done.
What the do have going for them this time is they are not competing with the GT3 or the Carrerra GT for sales. So if you want the top Porsche it is the GT2 right now. So at least they seem to be getting better at rolling them out.
Unlike Ferrari Porsche never promises anything when it comes to limited production. When Ferrarri says there will be 399, there will be 399 (maybe a few extra for friends of the family) but that is it. When Porche said 229 GT3 RS's what they meant (as of April 2008) what was it 398 (per M Jones recent post on sales).
So if they said only 200 should we count on 400? Who knows unless they have turned over a new leaf I don't think we can count on only 200 and given the current economic situation car prices are sure to soften.
JCM
What the do have going for them this time is they are not competing with the GT3 or the Carrerra GT for sales. So if you want the top Porsche it is the GT2 right now. So at least they seem to be getting better at rolling them out.
Unlike Ferrari Porsche never promises anything when it comes to limited production. When Ferrarri says there will be 399, there will be 399 (maybe a few extra for friends of the family) but that is it. When Porche said 229 GT3 RS's what they meant (as of April 2008) what was it 398 (per M Jones recent post on sales).
So if they said only 200 should we count on 400? Who knows unless they have turned over a new leaf I don't think we can count on only 200 and given the current economic situation car prices are sure to soften.
JCM
05-09-2008, 12:35 AM
#20
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An interesting issue, the residuals. End of the day the leasing companies have learned their lesson.
The RS came out at the peak of the economic cycle and has stayed strong but the market will bring something new and prices will drop from today's levels. The current economic downturn may bring prices down faster than normal. But you can't argue they have held up very well.
The 996 GT2 came on the heals of the Dot.com spiral, and now the 997 GT2 (at a similar price) comes facing some strong economic headwinds. So to get $30K over is pretty strong, but like the 996 won't last just because of the market. But there are only going to be a few (right), until Porsche answers the dealers request for more cars they can make a killing on, then back to MSRP.
Regardless the GT2 will depreciate, but I don't think it will take as big or as fast a hit as the 996 GT2. That car got no love in the auto press and as such dropped like a rock. If you recall the 996 GT3 came out after and the auto press loved that car and stated again and again no need for the GT2, overpriced, not as good a car.
The new GT2 is all smiles with the press. Faster car, fast as a Carrerra GT, easy to drive, it has all the safety features to protect the drivers from themselves! The RS is still coming out in many articles as the more pure car, but the 997 GT2 is getting press the 996 GT2 never saw.
To me a low milage 996 GT2 at $100K is a steal and a car you will be happy you bought in 15 years. It will be the last "monster" Porsche with no safety net. Not for everyone but an icon none the less. The GT2 offers more raw fun for the street and is a better street car. The RS if you are using it for the track.
55% residual for a 3 year old 997 GT2 which was driven daily (30,000 miles) would be a pretty safe bet and an excellent hedge against the market. If you were going to drive it everyday, why not take the downside out of the equation and simply be able to give it back? And think of the fun of knowing you are going to be driving it everyday! You will get your money's worth!
JCM
The RS came out at the peak of the economic cycle and has stayed strong but the market will bring something new and prices will drop from today's levels. The current economic downturn may bring prices down faster than normal. But you can't argue they have held up very well.
The 996 GT2 came on the heals of the Dot.com spiral, and now the 997 GT2 (at a similar price) comes facing some strong economic headwinds. So to get $30K over is pretty strong, but like the 996 won't last just because of the market. But there are only going to be a few (right), until Porsche answers the dealers request for more cars they can make a killing on, then back to MSRP.
Regardless the GT2 will depreciate, but I don't think it will take as big or as fast a hit as the 996 GT2. That car got no love in the auto press and as such dropped like a rock. If you recall the 996 GT3 came out after and the auto press loved that car and stated again and again no need for the GT2, overpriced, not as good a car.
The new GT2 is all smiles with the press. Faster car, fast as a Carrerra GT, easy to drive, it has all the safety features to protect the drivers from themselves! The RS is still coming out in many articles as the more pure car, but the 997 GT2 is getting press the 996 GT2 never saw.
To me a low milage 996 GT2 at $100K is a steal and a car you will be happy you bought in 15 years. It will be the last "monster" Porsche with no safety net. Not for everyone but an icon none the less. The GT2 offers more raw fun for the street and is a better street car. The RS if you are using it for the track.
55% residual for a 3 year old 997 GT2 which was driven daily (30,000 miles) would be a pretty safe bet and an excellent hedge against the market. If you were going to drive it everyday, why not take the downside out of the equation and simply be able to give it back? And think of the fun of knowing you are going to be driving it everyday! You will get your money's worth!
JCM
That's exactly how I view the 3 year lease (Hedge with known limited downside) and agree it should be great value to put all those miles into it.
The right answer is to have both and I would prefer the GT3(RS) as a track only beater (the cost in consumables of tracking a GT2 can be almost 2x of the GT3), but the brutality of occasionally taking the GT2 to the track should have a profound perma-grin effect.
05-09-2008, 12:54 AM
#21
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The GT2 shouldn't be driven by anymore than about 15 people in the US on the track. It's too much car for almost every driver. Unfortunately for Porsche to keep the Monster going they have to produce a lot of cars. RS or GT2 it won't matter when the 999 or whatever comes out next they will all drop like the 996 has done. Ferrari makes about 1 car in 15 to Porsche so their prices hold and only drop 2 or 3 model lines down. It's supply and demand period. I love my RS and hope to have it a long time. If it drops it drops. It will always be 20% more than an standard GT3 and that's fine
05-09-2008, 03:46 AM
#22
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all cars drop in value when driven.
the rate of dep'n is steeper the rarer the car is (when driven), a 50k mile CGT is probably free ;-) a 80k mile enzo .... well you get the pix.
that said, when i hit the jack pot, i would lease a GT2 for a while and drive the **** out of it then turn it back in.
the RS on the other hand, i love and will keep. i dont know why i love it, i just do.
the rate of dep'n is steeper the rarer the car is (when driven), a 50k mile CGT is probably free ;-) a 80k mile enzo .... well you get the pix.
that said, when i hit the jack pot, i would lease a GT2 for a while and drive the **** out of it then turn it back in.
the RS on the other hand, i love and will keep. i dont know why i love it, i just do.
05-09-2008, 04:56 AM
#23
These days, cost is rarely an object with all the creative financing out there! For me, even if I had the money, I would not get the GT2. For similar money, I'd rather get an F430, there is so much more excitement and sense of adventure in the F430.
Furthermore, if I had the chance to do it all over again, I would have paid the extra for an RS. I didn't think the extra cost was worth it when I bought my car, but I now feel it is worth it. There is something magical about the RS with its wide hips and wing, along with the wild colours. I'd take mine in Orange
Furthermore, if I had the chance to do it all over again, I would have paid the extra for an RS. I didn't think the extra cost was worth it when I bought my car, but I now feel it is worth it. There is something magical about the RS with its wide hips and wing, along with the wild colours. I'd take mine in Orange
I would pick a gt3rs over an f430. The f430 did have paddle shift which I was stunned to find that I loved it...
I totally agree with the 'do it all over again'
I didnt want to wait for a gt3 and i was at end of a lease, so I bought a x51 997s and then i had had had to have a gt3 so i sold the x51 to a friend at the dealer the night i bought my gt3, but i wish i had just held out for an orange rs.
dont get me wrong.. I love my SY GT3, but I should have held out
AT least I have something to look forward to :P
05-09-2008, 06:04 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
I think you might find that the 996 was not a fluke, and some new owners are already lamenting that the 997 GT2 is too tame; hankering after the rawness of the 996. That is the car (996 GT2) that might become the legend!
Capable hands? In these cars (at the car's limits) suggests a professional racing license, and lots of track time.
Capable hands? In these cars (at the car's limits) suggests a professional racing license, and lots of track time.
You are a well informed P guy. I did a lot of research on a 6 GT2 before buying one and indeed it's no 'fluke'. Both GT Porsche and Total 911 had extensive articles on the car and summarized as you just put it...It could be the last of the 'pure thoroughbreds' (no PSM/PASM...etc) and is the bargain of the century which is why is I bought one. Admittedly, the car is a handful and belongs to the group of 'scary cars' according to EVO mag. Maybe it was 'fluke' in terms of secondary market prices after launch... but then again '01 reminds me of that it was a tough year when the internet bubble burst.
05-09-2008, 06:06 AM
#25
Burning Brakes
An interesting issue, the residuals. End of the day the leasing companies have learned their lesson.
The RS came out at the peak of the economic cycle and has stayed strong but the market will bring something new and prices will drop from today's levels. The current economic downturn may bring prices down faster than normal. But you can't argue they have held up very well.
The 996 GT2 came on the heals of the Dot.com spiral, and now the 997 GT2 (at a similar price) comes facing some strong economic headwinds. So to get $30K over is pretty strong, but like the 996 won't last just because of the market. But there are only going to be a few (right), until Porsche answers the dealers request for more cars they can make a killing on, then back to MSRP.
Regardless the GT2 will depreciate, but I don't think it will take as big or as fast a hit as the 996 GT2. That car got no love in the auto press and as such dropped like a rock. If you recall the 996 GT3 came out after and the auto press loved that car and stated again and again no need for the GT2, overpriced, not as good a car.
The new GT2 is all smiles with the press. Faster car, fast as a Carrerra GT, easy to drive, it has all the safety features to protect the drivers from themselves! The RS is still coming out in many articles as the more pure car, but the 997 GT2 is getting press the 996 GT2 never saw.
To me a low milage 996 GT2 at $100K is a steal and a car you will be happy you bought in 15 years. It will be the last "monster" Porsche with no safety net. Not for everyone but an icon none the less. The GT2 offers more raw fun for the street and is a better street car. The RS if you are using it for the track.
55% residual for a 3 year old 997 GT2 which was driven daily (30,000 miles) would be a pretty safe bet and an excellent hedge against the market. If you were going to drive it everyday, why not take the downside out of the equation and simply be able to give it back? And think of the fun of knowing you are going to be driving it everyday! You will get your money's worth!
JCM
The RS came out at the peak of the economic cycle and has stayed strong but the market will bring something new and prices will drop from today's levels. The current economic downturn may bring prices down faster than normal. But you can't argue they have held up very well.
The 996 GT2 came on the heals of the Dot.com spiral, and now the 997 GT2 (at a similar price) comes facing some strong economic headwinds. So to get $30K over is pretty strong, but like the 996 won't last just because of the market. But there are only going to be a few (right), until Porsche answers the dealers request for more cars they can make a killing on, then back to MSRP.
Regardless the GT2 will depreciate, but I don't think it will take as big or as fast a hit as the 996 GT2. That car got no love in the auto press and as such dropped like a rock. If you recall the 996 GT3 came out after and the auto press loved that car and stated again and again no need for the GT2, overpriced, not as good a car.
The new GT2 is all smiles with the press. Faster car, fast as a Carrerra GT, easy to drive, it has all the safety features to protect the drivers from themselves! The RS is still coming out in many articles as the more pure car, but the 997 GT2 is getting press the 996 GT2 never saw.
To me a low milage 996 GT2 at $100K is a steal and a car you will be happy you bought in 15 years. It will be the last "monster" Porsche with no safety net. Not for everyone but an icon none the less. The GT2 offers more raw fun for the street and is a better street car. The RS if you are using it for the track.
55% residual for a 3 year old 997 GT2 which was driven daily (30,000 miles) would be a pretty safe bet and an excellent hedge against the market. If you were going to drive it everyday, why not take the downside out of the equation and simply be able to give it back? And think of the fun of knowing you are going to be driving it everyday! You will get your money's worth!
JCM
05-09-2008, 09:30 AM
#26
Banned
I am extremely satisfied with the power of the GT3, it is more than adequete. What I do want is less weight in the GT3 and the RS and the GT2 or any of the modern 911's. Well, it appears that the best US model right now to start with and reduce the weight even more is the brilliant GT3 RS. And I would prefer that the only options on the car are ceramics (that helps a lot with weight), floor mats and any kind of interior trim that is either painted or in carbon fibre (base carbon fiber package for example) or deviating seat belts, etc..., but nothing that would add weight to the car. And that definetely includes Bi-Xenon headlights (one of my most hated options for several reasons besides the fact that they add weight to the car).
I wanted an RS, but only at MSRP, because the extra $16K is about all it really was worth to me. In the meantime I have come to appreciate the RS even more, and find that the lack of sunroof and the widebody (with a wider track and a bit fancier suspension in the rear and bit firmer all around), and the unique color comnbos make me want the car even more. It is also nice that the RS clutch is in the car from the factory along with the more aggressive and functional areo aids on the car.
But what also makes the car even more desirabel to me is that it is more rare than the regular GT3 and it is holding its value so well; I realize it will come down, but it is is still doing very well.
I just recently found an RS for sale in one of my favorite RS colors and with exactly the right options: ceramics, $600 worth of interior decorative fluff (looks good, does not go over-board like someone's fast and furious pet frog that I know of, and does NOT add weight), floormats and that is all my friends. And no god damn Xenons!!! Very much like C.J.'s car.
If I can make this deal happen (so far it is a go), then the difference in price between it and my car is worth it. I will be paying at least as much as my 2006 STi that I am selling, but it will be more thatn that. But it is very fairly priced and will be worth it to me. And since it lacks a sunroof, has the ceramics, and has the 996 GT3 seats, then it shoudl be at least another 100 lbs lighter than my car!!!
The power of the GT2 is nice, but in a way is a bit useless here in the US. I already had my GT3 up to 192, and that was plenty fast. I have also driven a Carrera GT which is supposed to go 205, and I was only able to get it up 192 that day based on the roads and conditions..
I'm sure the GT2 is an awesome car and a blast to drive, but for the money, I would much rather have the RS. It is a better fit for me and is also more raw and natural. If I lived in Germany, in a location that was close to one of the Autobahns that is much less travelled than the rest, then I could make more sense and use of this 204 mph land missle. But here in the US, 193 mph is pleanty, and I much prefer the higher reving and linear nature of the GT3 cars, and the lower weight of the RS (with the ceramics option) to start with; and then reduce the weight down to 2900 lbs or even a little less, and maybe do a good exhaust with a tune to bring the already underated 415 hp closer to 440 hp, thereby bring the power to weight ratio of the car down to about 6.5 vs. 6.0 for the GT2.
If I had the money, I would want both the RS and the GT2 but if I had to choose, I would definetely go with the RS.
05-09-2008, 12:24 PM
#28
...Unlike Ferrari Porsche never promises anything when it comes to limited production. When Ferrarri says there will be 399, there will be 399 (maybe a few extra for friends of the family) but that is it. When Porche said 229 GT3 RS's what they meant (as of April 2008) what was it 398 (per M Jones recent post on sales)...
JCM
JCM
Greg A
05-09-2008, 12:31 PM
#29
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Here are two examples of *promised* limited production. Ferrari produced ~1000 more F40s than the ~300 that were promised. The Enzo went from a "promise" of 349 to 399 and then a little bit higher. I also consider the Maserati MC12 as part of that higher number since it is basically the same car.
Greg A
Greg A
Very interesting, so no question profit reigns at all car makers (no surprise) and all promises come with a "wink, wink"! So buy what you like, drive it eveyday and get your money's worth!
JCM
05-09-2008, 05:01 PM
#30
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In three years you will find GT2, GT3 and GT3 RS at 55% of MSRP. Why? Newer better things will be out by then...
Premium on GT3 are already gone, and they will be gone by the end of the year on the RS. When the MKII will be announced, the big plunge starts.
What Porsche should have learned with the 997 is that they didn't make enough GTx this time around. They won't make the mistake twice. Don't forget they don't care on residual value, they only care on how many new ones they sell to the dealers regarless of premiums.
Premium on GT3 are already gone, and they will be gone by the end of the year on the RS. When the MKII will be announced, the big plunge starts.
What Porsche should have learned with the 997 is that they didn't make enough GTx this time around. They won't make the mistake twice. Don't forget they don't care on residual value, they only care on how many new ones they sell to the dealers regarless of premiums.