Carnerd

LOL! Even so, 4-5 seconds is A LOT of time.

fast_freddy

Hmmmmmm. There are no miracles, only explanations. With the kind of weight the GT-R is lugging around I think one of three things is happening, race suspension setup with "regular" tires (unlikely), race suspension setup with DOT R compounds (most likely) or standard suspension with DOT R compounds (high probability). The delta between the GTR and the others is too great to ignore those later scenarios. Also, is this a one lap only type deal or a consecutive string of laps? With that kind of weight the brakes would turn to mush after a few laps. I'm curious to see if Top Gear ever does a similar comparo with the "Stig". At least that would be the least biased of pilots to drive.

To me at least, in the end, it's a Datsun.

GrantG

Here's another article (by EVO in the UK) where the GTR fares well against 997GT3 and Z06 and Audi R8:

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=22031

BTW, the Tires on the GTR are Bridgestone Runflats (not R comp for sure, but pretty damn good for runflats)

AndreCT

Yes the Stig will at least place them on an even playing field. However Datsun / Nissan whatever... I think it is an amazing car. Other forums mention the possibility that it cannot be modded too easily (cheaply).. Maybe so.

And, don't we drive a VW variant..? lol

OldGuy

I agree 100% with Eugene. The Truth will come out soon. But the car is
A. a Nissan
B. 1000 lbs heavier
C. Nissan pro driver
D. a Nissan

I didnt grow up studying Nissan Marque history dreaming of walking in to my Nissan dealer and talking about some skyline model. I dont care how fast it is. Its a Nissan. Its ugly and it looks ALOT like the NASCAR car of tomorrow. The only thing its missing is a carberator, and the orange paint job with the Home Depot decals.

triode

Good call, The Original OG. GT Silver guys are apparently Men Of Taste.

SpeedGeek

I believe we've reached a point where modern engineering, making good use of smart electronics and diffs, can outperform the old-school chassis we're used to. And it won't help that we protest the loss of purity or feel or rawness or driver involvement. It's the same tension I remember between the young CD generation and the fuddy-duddy vinyl die-hards, circa 1990. Can digital music provide the same purity of hi-fi sound as vinyl? Who cares, vinyl is dead.

Those of us who care more about driving purity than lap times will keep buying the old school cars for as long as we can get them. But in a world where performance numbers and features, not purity, sells cars, we are probably dinosaurs. Already the 997 GT3 models have buttons like Sport and PASM. And the next generation will add PDK. I love my 996 RS because it really is the last pure, unadulterated, unassisted driver's Porsche in the GT3 lineage. The 997 is one step closer to that Nissan. And if Porsche wants to stay competitive, they are going to have to get closer still.

It's called "progress", and it separates the old generations from the young. It always has, and it always will.

340Elise

I remember not too long ago when you were seemingly getting a bit annoyed about some of the comments about your new M-Coupe from board members; something about Rennlisters or Porsche owners and also the word snob in the same sentence. But you did not care because the M-Coupe is such a great car and at a great price. Sound familiar?

Don't get me wrong; I totally understand where you are coming from and I very much agree. But this GT-R is none the less an impressive engineering and performance feat, even if it does not have the history and snob appeal of our Porsche cars.

I wonder how many Ferrari owners look down on our high volume cookie cutter Porsches.

I do know one thing. I never tire of going to my local Porsche dealer to see their latest inventory and to chat cars; the same goes for the Lotus dealer, and also the BMW dealer (although to a lesser extent). These are all car manufacturerers whose entire model line I am interested in (save for the SUV's, but even those are quite remarkable for what they are), and would buy any of their models and know I could still enjoy driving them because they WILL have a sporting soul in every model; and again this includes the SUV's and certainly the bigger BMW models. These last two types simply allow those who need some space and utility to still have some fun behind the wheel; kind of like the original GTI.

Now take the Nissan dealer. They build nothing that really stirs the soul. Sure, they have the Maxima with a fairly powerful engine option, but then it is front drive and is such a typical boring Japanese design. The 350 Z is too heavy and underpowered for a true sports car, and again, it is rare that the Japanese ever come out with a truly striking design that is both beautiful and will age well. Tthey just don't seem to have this ability in their blood, which is why it's not uncommon for them to copy other designs, or to duplicate other market segments such as the one the BMW 3 series is still the master of. Infiniti, Lexus, and Acura have gotten very good, and may very well build a more reliable car; and they have also brought out some very handsome designs such as the latest G-35 sedan and G-37, but they are still out to copy and compare themselves to the European makes, especially the German ones. And although they build some excellent products, they still lack the soul and the top secrect suspension receipe that only the Germans can do on such a wide variety of platforms. When you drive a German car, you will know it, unless you do not have a single enthusiast bone in your body or you are simply numb.

Now there are are a few Japanese models that have defined their own segment, or they have done something a little different that seems to work pretty well. And they have designed some models which have aged well and have a nice look to them. The ones that come to mind for me are the Acura NSX, Mazda Miata, Honda S-2000, and the brilliant rally car segment which is Japan's version of the Pony Car wars. The only difference here is that the STi and Evo are much more true enthusiast cars than the Camaro or Mustang, and they define an entirely new segment all by themselves.

As for the GTR. It seems to try to be a road going rally car with a lot more horsepower and even more electronic trickery. It is trying to be compared to the Porsche Turbo (here we go again, gotta compete with the cars that are the gold standard), and in terms of numbers on paper, seems to be doing a good job. But again, the design (love it or hate it) is another typical Japanese concoction which can easily be recognized as Japenese and probably will never be known as a timeless classic.

I personally find the car and its technology very interesting, and I have been to the dealer once to ask about the pricing and allocations (mainly because it is part of Mellor Jaguar and LOTUS!!!), but that is about as far as I will take it with the dealer visits. I know I will not be able to test drive one; I still can't test drive a $35,000 Evo. And there is nothing else in the showroom that gets my attention. So I will read some of the magazine tests as the car begins being delivered, and if I get a chance to sneak an up close peak at one, while I am deciding which color I want my next Exige, then I will certainly walk over to take a look with a genuine interest, but probably not a burning desire.

Stephen

fast_freddy

They (and others) should test a car that is straight out of a random showroom. I think the "press cars" have a high probability of being "adjusted".


Blashphemy!

(shhhhhhhhhhhhh, I thought we all agreed we weren't go to mention that)

cfjan

Edmunds went to Japan and borrowed a privately owned stock GT-R. (GT-R has been available in Japan for a few months now..)

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=124017

0-60mph in 3.3 sec.. so it is probably not just the press car being a ringer..


Regarding GT-R having too much technology that it does not take a skilled driver to go fast -> I think that's the intension of Nissan. The chief design goal was to make the performance available to many, instead of just the elite drivers. (if you read the interview from the chief engineer of the GT-R project) So it is not a "design flaw", it is meant to be that way. It was never meant to be a pure driving machine like the GT-3.

Love it or hate it (based on your goal), there is no denying that Nissan has done a great job bringing out a package that cost $70k USD and pack so much punch. I'd have guessed that most of the guys here at the GT2/GT3 board (compare to the 997 board, for example) would appreciate technological advancement such as this.

340Elise

Yup, it is definetely a super car that anyone can drive as long as they don't have any experience at all, and then believe they are super speed racer pro. You are right, they also mention this in the brochure.

I just found out that one of the five here in Albuquerque is a friend (not a close friend), and he will most likely let me drive it. Should be very interesting!

creator8

My buddy owns the shop where they recently dynoed a JDM GT-R customer car (not supplied by factory PR!) bought off a Japanese dealership and imported to US. He also dynoed a stock 997 Turbo. On the same day and the same dyno (a Mustang) they made the same power: 406whp. This was for an article for Edmunds Inside Line And in fact he said that the Porsche had more mid range power as you can see from the dynoplots in the article.

The only explanation for the lap time differential has to be the set up of the diffs and the double clutch gearbox. You've got a similar scenario going on right now in the battle between the 08 Mitsu EVO MR (w/ SST) and the 08 Subaru STI. The Mitsu is 300lbs heavier than the STI has a smidge less power, yet is knocking a couple of seconds off the STI's lap time at Streets of Willow.

Its either that, or Mitsubishi and Nissan are both running ringers w/ the boost turned up. They wouldn't do that would they?????

jlr

Though the GT-R is no doubt an impressive car, its manufacturer is NOT that impressive. The GT-R is obviously a technology showcase, a "look at what we can do with our unlimited budget" kind of effort meant to bolster their image. That Nissan would make a supercar, officially sell it at a bargain basement price (knowing that the it will sell at 20k over list), sell it at a probable loss to them, and import a mere 1500 units, seems to suggest that they are not serious at subsisting by selling sporting machines. Rather they are more interested in selling cars period under the marketing shadow of their goliath on-paper supercar.

I would be much more impressed if in the coming months, I could go to my local Nissan dealer and readily test drive one, then buy one at sticker (or less) if I wanted. But that isn't going to happen, because the the GT-R's performance envelope and real-world availability both exist in a kind of virutal reality.

cfjan

I am sure the GT-R is a technology showcase (within budget) just like a 911 GT2 (I am sure Porsche did not hold back there!) or the legendary 959...

Regarding selling the GT-Rs at a "loss".. I am not quite sure. As GT-Rs are not new, they have been around for a long time. (Starting in the early 90s, when the "modern" GT-R started w/ R32) The most recent R34 (the one prior to this current generation GT-R), they were selling for around $50k USD in Japan. And the new one is $15k more. That sounds about right.

Regarding the $20k over sticker -> I am sure it is the same when the GT3/RS/GT2 just newly released. (Continue to these days, the RS still command fairly high premium even in the secondary market)

jlr

As for the GT-R being a loss per unit, we may never REALLY know. Still, many manufacturers produce models/products which may or may not be profitable per unit, but bolster brand image overall. I suspect some of these techno-showcase cars are sold at a loss per unit. No sin there, I guess, in terms of business, if the result is a gain down the road. The essence of my point, though, as an enthusiast, is that the GT-R is kind of a brand image car and only time will tell if it becomes more readily available, or if it's technological advances "trickle down" to lesser Nissans. If so, great. Maybe our children will all be salivating over 450hp AWD Altimas in a few years, and we will be talking about our P-cars like Alfa Romeo enthusiasts talk of theirs.

As far as pricing goes, the manufacturers have some idea of the market, so whether we are talking P-cars or Nissans, the market price is the price. And in this case, it ain't gonna be 65k.

As said, on paper it's an impressive feat, and a great car to own I'm sure. But, a automotive giant building a single supercar for their lineup at an artificially low price is just NOT impressive.