Originally Posted by NYC123

to clarify I do not think some time to come is 5 yrs, no way. I meant if I want to sell the car in 12 months my best guess and only a guess is the loss would be similar to buying a 997 TT or a mercedes sl55, in terms of absolute $$$ I will loose even paying over MSRP

Originally Posted by ///Mous3

Okay, put "the usual" 10,000 miles on it and let me rephrace my question;

Honest question. I do not know the answer...
What car in the history maintained the selling price above MSRP with 10,000 miles in first 12 month of model year?

Originally Posted by dsu*

i would take one at MSRP in a heart beat. Probably even pay couple K more if I can personalise the car.

I went to porsche dealer in Taiwan yesterday and asked about the RS. They just got one in which was ordered by a friend of mine. And they have one more allocation this year. Still avaliable for buyer to personalise. The base price is about 30K more than the regular 3, but in taiwan the base price of a regular 3 is around 220K. Only MSRP, no mark up wat so ever

Originally Posted by 340Elise

I agree; I was thinking about the same. What does the MSRP have to do with anything? It is the suggested price of the car. If the current market for an RS is wholesale = MSRP and retail = MSRP + $30K, then what difference does that make?

I think it is exactly what Bobby is saying. Those of us who understand the automobile market and understand how to buy a car of whatever make at the correct market price (I would think most people on here are very good at buying cars and know how to deal), we have ingrained in our minds that only idiots pay over MSRP and that the most we would ever pay for a car is MSRP. We are also the ones who buy cars at huge discounts when the time is right because we know exactly what we are doing. We are no longer such a special bread because ever since the internet became as popular and common as television, the word has gotten out how to correctly buy a car and not get "taken" by the dealer. No one wants to get taken; not us intelligent car buying experts with our big egos (this includes me btw). Now that the invoice of cars is easy to find, and factory to dealer/customer rebates are exposed on any make and model, and if you simply click on the internet to look for a car you will be bombarded with this information. Unless you live in a cave, or you truly have a very low IQ, it is easy to buy cars today at a price that is way below MSRP and is closer to what the car is really worth.

So now we have the new GT3 RS and it is going for anywhere from MSRP to about $60K over MSRP, correct? It may be closer to $30K over at this time because the prices are slowly dropping. So what is the difference if you buy one for $160K brand new (instead of $130K) and you can turn right around and sell it for the same money after driving it for a few weeks? You might even get a little bit more for the car. How many new cars today can you buy at MSRP, or the correct discount from MSRP and then turn around after a month and recoup your money? Besides Ferrari, pretty much none!

If I could have bought an RS back in May for $30K over MSRP and be able to afford that purchase price, I would have done it (I was offered a brand new one at that price, but that is too rich for my blood). But ONLY if the current market conditions dictate that this is the going rate for the car and I know that I can recoupe my money or take a reasonable loss within a reasonable amount of time.

Colm said that he thinks someone would be stupid for buying an RS over MSRP. So let me ask you this: What if my local dealer here in Albuquerque got a surprise 2008 GT3 RS allocation and told me that they would sell it to me for $10K over MSRP, and let's say this happened around August and my delivery would be the beginning of November 2008. Based on the current market conditions at that time (or even right now), who would have taken that RS (unless you already have one or just can't afford it) or highly recommended it to a friend? Even if you already have an RS and can afford another one; who would have taken that allocation to build an RS at MSRP + $10K?

Strictly based on the market, you would be stupid not to take that car if you can afford it. Am I right?

Now if your reasoning is that you do not want to support the dealer gauging (sp?), then I understand that and respect you for that.

I would have done it, but not to resell it. I would be driving it right now and enjoying it, and I would be extras happy because my RS is actually worth more than what I paid for it; you can't beat that.

Sure the prices will come down and eventually go to MSRP and then below MSRP; the same happens with just about any car except for the garage queen Ferraris and other such rare models that retain used prices over MSRP because of Supply & Demand (interesting concept, eh?).

As for my GT3, I took delivery on December 8th and I paid MSRP for it. Based on what I am seeing, my car is probably still worth about MSRP. I am happy about this, but I also expect it to go lower as time goes by and the miles get put on.

Buying over MSRP is not stupid if the current market conditions dictate this pricing; and if you got one at MSRP, then you should really be smiling from ear to ear.

Stephen

Originally Posted by mooty

your assumption is certainly true with some ppl but not all. i was offered a GT2 to flip for profit with a friend of mine. i declined. i dont have the interest or the time to market the car. i barely have time to eat dinner for more than 10 minute every night. my spare time is here on RL and i dont sleep more than 4.5 hours a night. i think these cars should be bought by ppl who intend to USE them. i bought my RS at msrp, it was one of the very very first cars. at that time, i could EASILY flip it for 50k over. but instead i put 15k miles on it.

by the way, i dont think paying over msrp is stupid per se. if paying 30k over or so makes you happy, then by all means go for it.
it is only stupid if one thinks RS is rare and will hold up value.

Originally Posted by 340Elise

btw Mooty, what do you do that does not allow you the time to sell a car?

Stephen

Originally Posted by mooty

what do you think... i am on RL all the time.

i just got several small jobs, including baby sitting my wild 3 year old. but the real reason is that when you try to sell a car as specialized as GT3 or lotus for that matter, with prices north of $50k, you get a LOT I MEAN A LOT of tire kickers and joy riders. after a while, you get tired and also get smart. just develop a relationship with dealer and let them sell the car without beating up on u too badly.

Originally Posted by 340Elise

Good point, but this does not apply to all people. When I sell a car like the Exige or GT3, I advertise it on forums like this and through word of mouth; often in the aftermarket community. So what happens is that I usually get serious buyers who already have had the car, and want it again, or are ready to buy a good used one for their first car of this type.

Also, my cars almost always end up going out of state; Albuquerque just does not have a market for these cars; it would be useless to advertise it locally. Back when I had my E-36 M3 (great car), I actually did advertise it in the paper, but it was the Denver Post and Rocky Mountain News! And sure enough, the car went to Colorado. So my buyers end up flying out to look at my cars or they have me send them a bunch of pics, do a thorough interrogation, and have a PPI done and then just buy them remotely. These types are not tire kickers.

Here are some of my most recent sales and trades, some old ones to:

'07 Exige S went to NY
'05 Elise went to Atlanta
'06 Cayman was traded locally for the Exige S
'05 997 went to Phoenix
'03 996 Cab was traded locally for the 997
'03 996 Coupe was traded in TX for 996 Cab
'01 Boxster was a local sale; first person to look at it (a woman), bought it
'97 VW GTI VR6 went to Texas
'97 M3 went to Denver

There are others, but this gives you an idea of how many go out of state for me.

Stephen

Originally Posted by mooty

u r right. long distance buyers are not tire kickers. but i prefer face to face deals. if i can't see you, i won't sell to you, unless i know you. if you fly out to see it, great. but many ppl dont even come to see the car. then my OCD causes me to worry that what if i ship the car and the buyer find one extra chip on the car and ......

so that narrow my market immediately, must personal idiosyncrasy.

on RL, you get some good buyers. but 6speed is no the case. they often have problems deciding buying a 5000 watch!

and dont bother with etalk. there are legit enthusiasts like jack, allegretto, and such. but i sold my car at 50% of my cost and some think it's too much, while a real lotus driver saw the car, drove if to 1/2 miles, then drove me to the bank and bought it.

so, just b/c we are on enthusiast sites, not every site are populated by REAL buyers. and i dont like to act like a sieve.

Originally Posted by 340Elise

I agree with you on the OCD part. I have exactly the same feelings when selling my cars to guys who are just as **** about them as I am. You try your best to describe every flaw on the car, like breaking the sheet metal down into quadrants and assigning an alphanumeric labeling system with the exact location of each paint chip including measurements and pictures (I'm exaggerating a bit, but not by much). So far though, I have not had an unhappy customer; in fact, I get emails telling me how happy my buyers have been working with me, and how comfortable they were during the entire process because I actually took precautions (in their favor) that they would not have even thought about.

As for selling to someone I know, it depends on who it is. If it is a friend, especially a good one, then I do the opposite and DO NOT sell my cars to them. I did that once when I was 18 and regretted it because I felt bad about everything that went wrong with the car as it got older. My friend never held this against me because he is way too classy for that, but I can see how something like that could hurt a friendship. It is a little bit like having your best friend as your room mate, or going into business with them. It seems like a great idea because you know and trust each other, but when you spend too much time together or you get money involved, it can hurt or even break-up a friendship. Although for true friends it can strengthen your bond and show you who your real friends are.

As for Elise Talk, I couldn't agree more. It is a great website for information, although you have to be careful who you take advice from, but I have never seen more immature, politically sensitive, whining babies in my life. I like a lot of E-Talk members, but I dislike more. However, I sold both my Exige S and Elise through that forum, and I never had any lowball offers either. But I also wrote at the top of my For Sale ad's that "For Sale does not mean discussion," and I expected members to respect that. It worked well; I did not get a single idiotic comment.

I have heard that 6-speed online is more like E-Talk, which is why I have avoided it thus far. I can truly say that I have enjoyed this forum very much so far and I look forward to contributing positively, and I hope that I can help some members with my limited knowledge of the GT3. I am learning fast though!

Stephen

p.s. If you haven't noticed, I have a tendency to write long posts; this is something that I need to work on. I'm sure some members don't read my posts just because of their length.

Originally Posted by MetalSolid

The original RS isn't a collector's car today because it was a "collectors car" back in the seventies, quite the opposite. Those early cars got driven, raced and abused, thus gaining a reputation as a driver's, not collector's car. The 997GT3RS has to make it's own history; and what story of sitting in a garage awaiting appreciation...