Positive Experience with Toyo Proxes RA1
07-09-2007, 01:19 PM
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Positive Experience with Toyo Proxes RA1
I spent Friday and the rest of last weekend at Road Atlanta driving and instructing with the Peachtree BMW chapter, who always host first-class DE events.
I purchased a set of CCW 18” wheels on Mitch’s recommendation. They are perfect for the track – thanks Mitch and CCW! I weighed a stock rear wheel and tire and a rear CCW wheel with the Toyo and the weight was identical on my scale at 54 lbs. I was hoping for lighter weight.
I struggled with which tire to put on the car. It came down to two choices for me based on relative similarity to stock diameters: Hoosier – which meant that I would have to tow the car to the track or Toyo Proxes RA1 (the Toyo 888 was not available in the time I had) which would allow me to drive the car to and from the track (more to come regarding this decision). I wanted to choose the Hoosier for performance reasons, however, Road Atlanta is 35 miles from my home and loading the car on the trailer and all the ‘support’ stuff that I always end up throwing in the Yukon is just to cumbersome for such a short trip. So it was 245 and 305 Toyos for me. They fit the car with no modification and no rubbing. My car is box stock with the circuit alignment being the only derivation from its as-delivered state.
I have never driven on Toyos before and have been using Michelin PSCs for several years. I ordered the tires from Vilven Tire and had them shaved to 3/32 tread depth. Vilven was great getting me the tires at a very reasonable price and in a short period of time. My initial impression of the tire was that it didn’t turn in nearly as quickly as the PSC and made the car feel heavier, bigger and less sharp than it had on the Pirelli Corsas it came with. The Corsas, by the way, feel very similar to PSCs.
After acclimating to the Toyo and finding hot pressures that I liked – 40 psi font/ 41 psi rear, I found the tire to be very predictable and relatively consistent throughout 20 minute run sessions. It is difficult to get several contiguous clean laps at a DE, but on the rare occasions that I did, the tires performed very well. The last session of the second day was very lightly attended and the ambient temperature had dropped several degrees to about 80. Even though I had a student in the car and it seemed a good opportunity to push the car for a few laps. I was able to turn times within 6 tenths of my previous best with the Corsas and no student (1:35.7 on Corsas – 1:36.3 on the Toyos - I use a Traqmate and have not overlaid the traces yet - but will soon). The laps weren’t perfect and I had the extra weight of a student. Without the small error and the student, I believe the car would have been just as quick.
It rained the morning of the third day and the drive out to the track was daunting, harrowing actually, on worn tires. Any speed over 54 mph and the car was extremely twitchy – lesson learned.
I will definitely use the Toyos again and look forward to trying the new Toyo 888 at my next opportunity. I haven’t taken the Toyos off yet, but a quick visual inspection of them still on the car seems to indicate that there is another weekend in them. I’ll update this post if after taking them off indicates differently. Anecdotal information indicates that the tires get faster as they wear.
As an aside, Road Atlanta was recently repaved and it had some new bumps the previous time I was there. They didn't have much effect on my car, but guys in full-on race cars did a lot of complaining. Since then the track has been fixed and is extremely smooth with no discernable imperfections or bumpiness.
Hank
(edited for correct rear tire size. I had initially posted that the rears were 315s when they are actually 305s)
I purchased a set of CCW 18” wheels on Mitch’s recommendation. They are perfect for the track – thanks Mitch and CCW! I weighed a stock rear wheel and tire and a rear CCW wheel with the Toyo and the weight was identical on my scale at 54 lbs. I was hoping for lighter weight.
I struggled with which tire to put on the car. It came down to two choices for me based on relative similarity to stock diameters: Hoosier – which meant that I would have to tow the car to the track or Toyo Proxes RA1 (the Toyo 888 was not available in the time I had) which would allow me to drive the car to and from the track (more to come regarding this decision). I wanted to choose the Hoosier for performance reasons, however, Road Atlanta is 35 miles from my home and loading the car on the trailer and all the ‘support’ stuff that I always end up throwing in the Yukon is just to cumbersome for such a short trip. So it was 245 and 305 Toyos for me. They fit the car with no modification and no rubbing. My car is box stock with the circuit alignment being the only derivation from its as-delivered state.
I have never driven on Toyos before and have been using Michelin PSCs for several years. I ordered the tires from Vilven Tire and had them shaved to 3/32 tread depth. Vilven was great getting me the tires at a very reasonable price and in a short period of time. My initial impression of the tire was that it didn’t turn in nearly as quickly as the PSC and made the car feel heavier, bigger and less sharp than it had on the Pirelli Corsas it came with. The Corsas, by the way, feel very similar to PSCs.
After acclimating to the Toyo and finding hot pressures that I liked – 40 psi font/ 41 psi rear, I found the tire to be very predictable and relatively consistent throughout 20 minute run sessions. It is difficult to get several contiguous clean laps at a DE, but on the rare occasions that I did, the tires performed very well. The last session of the second day was very lightly attended and the ambient temperature had dropped several degrees to about 80. Even though I had a student in the car and it seemed a good opportunity to push the car for a few laps. I was able to turn times within 6 tenths of my previous best with the Corsas and no student (1:35.7 on Corsas – 1:36.3 on the Toyos - I use a Traqmate and have not overlaid the traces yet - but will soon). The laps weren’t perfect and I had the extra weight of a student. Without the small error and the student, I believe the car would have been just as quick.
It rained the morning of the third day and the drive out to the track was daunting, harrowing actually, on worn tires. Any speed over 54 mph and the car was extremely twitchy – lesson learned.
I will definitely use the Toyos again and look forward to trying the new Toyo 888 at my next opportunity. I haven’t taken the Toyos off yet, but a quick visual inspection of them still on the car seems to indicate that there is another weekend in them. I’ll update this post if after taking them off indicates differently. Anecdotal information indicates that the tires get faster as they wear.
As an aside, Road Atlanta was recently repaved and it had some new bumps the previous time I was there. They didn't have much effect on my car, but guys in full-on race cars did a lot of complaining. Since then the track has been fixed and is extremely smooth with no discernable imperfections or bumpiness.
Hank
(edited for correct rear tire size. I had initially posted that the rears were 315s when they are actually 305s)
Last edited by Hank Cohn; 07-09-2007 at 02:51 PM.
07-09-2007, 01:52 PM
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hank, thanx for the review.
i spoke to john at CCW this morning, he recommends 305 for the rear and 245 front. i am wondering why/how you decided with 315 since most ppl are complaining of understeer. (also i THINK 305 is much closer to stock dia then 315)....
i dont know how many miles you put on the RA1's but i think you should get a lot more than just two weekend out of them. i haven't tried those on GT3's but on my other 3000lbs cars, m3 and cayman s, they easily last 1200 miles without flipping the tire on rim. they would last 1500 miles, but i use them on the street as well and with 3 deg of camber on those cars, i cord the inside early.
they do last and get stickier as you go, good to the cord.
i spoke to john at CCW this morning, he recommends 305 for the rear and 245 front. i am wondering why/how you decided with 315 since most ppl are complaining of understeer. (also i THINK 305 is much closer to stock dia then 315)....
i dont know how many miles you put on the RA1's but i think you should get a lot more than just two weekend out of them. i haven't tried those on GT3's but on my other 3000lbs cars, m3 and cayman s, they easily last 1200 miles without flipping the tire on rim. they would last 1500 miles, but i use them on the street as well and with 3 deg of camber on those cars, i cord the inside early.
they do last and get stickier as you go, good to the cord.
07-09-2007, 02:49 PM
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Mooty,
Thanks for catching my error. My rears are 305s. (I'll try to edit the original post) I put about 250 track miles on the tires. It was a relatively hot weekend with ambient temps in the 90s. and the tires were shaved to 3/32nds. I would also add that there was no issue with understeer, but Road Atlanta is an open track with no decreasing radius turns. In fact, and if you're familiar with Road Atlanta, I had to wait on applying full power at the top of the esses because of oversteer. It is a downhill section and requires a lot of mechanical grip at the rear. Perhaps a rear wing adjustment would have improved that small issue. Thanks for the feedback.
Hank
Thanks for catching my error. My rears are 305s. (I'll try to edit the original post) I put about 250 track miles on the tires. It was a relatively hot weekend with ambient temps in the 90s. and the tires were shaved to 3/32nds. I would also add that there was no issue with understeer, but Road Atlanta is an open track with no decreasing radius turns. In fact, and if you're familiar with Road Atlanta, I had to wait on applying full power at the top of the esses because of oversteer. It is a downhill section and requires a lot of mechanical grip at the rear. Perhaps a rear wing adjustment would have improved that small issue. Thanks for the feedback.
Hank
07-09-2007, 03:52 PM
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thanks hank, with that, i think i am set with tires/wheels.
ah, 3/32, ok, then maybe you can only get 700 miles out of them.
i shave them to 5/32 and never got less than 1000 miles, and i have had them on track when ambient temp was in the 100's.
ah, 3/32, ok, then maybe you can only get 700 miles out of them.
i shave them to 5/32 and never got less than 1000 miles, and i have had them on track when ambient temp was in the 100's.
07-09-2007, 05:06 PM
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Well I don't know if I was the "fat ***" student (just kidding) that Hank is referring to but I did have the privilege of taking a ride with him on Sat. I did not think 173lbs at 5'8" was terrible, but I promise to loose some weight before next time.
I can attest to the quick times that Hank was turning there with his bone stock GT3. As I have euro seats/DAS bar and Schroth harnesses in my 05 996 GT3, I was wondering how I would do as a passenger in his car with stock seats and three point belts. Since I am prone to motion sickness when not driving I was even more worried.
No need. . . Hank is so smooth and really knows how to get the most out of the car. He spoke to me about how much he liked the MPSC (which I hate) and was questioning the Toyos. From the passenger seat they felt great! Grip was great (both tire and track). Now I did not have the feedback of the wheel in my hand but from the seat of my pants it was terrific.
Thanks again Hank for your instruction this weekend and the wonderful session with you and that beautiful SY 997 GT3. Nice to have a new friend.
I can attest to the quick times that Hank was turning there with his bone stock GT3. As I have euro seats/DAS bar and Schroth harnesses in my 05 996 GT3, I was wondering how I would do as a passenger in his car with stock seats and three point belts. Since I am prone to motion sickness when not driving I was even more worried.
No need. . . Hank is so smooth and really knows how to get the most out of the car. He spoke to me about how much he liked the MPSC (which I hate) and was questioning the Toyos. From the passenger seat they felt great! Grip was great (both tire and track). Now I did not have the feedback of the wheel in my hand but from the seat of my pants it was terrific.
Thanks again Hank for your instruction this weekend and the wonderful session with you and that beautiful SY 997 GT3. Nice to have a new friend.
07-09-2007, 06:06 PM
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One more bit of additional information: I chose the Toyos because of the braking issues Mitch and his friends were experiencing and posting about here with the Michelin PSCs. I would much prefer the PSCs. The Toyos, however, are a better match ratio-wise to the stock tires.
On my fist session out as soon as I was up to speed I did have one instance where the brakes were ABSing and I had to push the brake pedal as hard as I could to get the car slowed for the corner. I don't know if the ABS computer has some limited ability to adapt, however, there was no repeat experience of that phenomenon over the remaining 2 and 3/4 days.
I have experienced this same issue before when tires were significantly different diameters than stock (it doesn’t take much difference to be significant). In this case, the pedal DID NOT go to the floor and, again, from previous experience in 993s and 996 Cup cars it does not reoccur after one or possibly two occurrences. Mitch indicated that his pedal went to the floor – this was not my experience.
Hank
On my fist session out as soon as I was up to speed I did have one instance where the brakes were ABSing and I had to push the brake pedal as hard as I could to get the car slowed for the corner. I don't know if the ABS computer has some limited ability to adapt, however, there was no repeat experience of that phenomenon over the remaining 2 and 3/4 days.
I have experienced this same issue before when tires were significantly different diameters than stock (it doesn’t take much difference to be significant). In this case, the pedal DID NOT go to the floor and, again, from previous experience in 993s and 996 Cup cars it does not reoccur after one or possibly two occurrences. Mitch indicated that his pedal went to the floor – this was not my experience.
Hank
07-09-2007, 06:11 PM
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Chris -
It was great to meet and hang out with you last weekend. Your car is incredibly well set up and you drive it very well! Thanks for the compliment. It means a lot coming from an accomplished driver such as you. And, no, you were not the 'fat ***.' Please let me know the next time you guys are at VIR. I would love to come join the fun. During the week is preferable to a weekend.
Hank
It was great to meet and hang out with you last weekend. Your car is incredibly well set up and you drive it very well! Thanks for the compliment. It means a lot coming from an accomplished driver such as you. And, no, you were not the 'fat ***.' Please let me know the next time you guys are at VIR. I would love to come join the fun. During the week is preferable to a weekend.
Hank
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07-09-2007, 09:57 PM
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You should get a LOT more than two weekends out of the RA-1's, even if they were shaved to 3/32. The more they wear, the faster they are! But as you found out, they aren't' any good for driving too/from the track in the rain anymore!!
07-09-2007, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Hank Cohn
. . . So it was 245 and 305 Toyos for me. They fit the car with no modification and no rubbing. My car is box stock with the circuit alignment being the only derivation from its as-delivered state.
I have never driven on Toyos before and have been using Michelin PSCs for several years. I ordered the tires from Vilven Tire and had them shaved to 3/32 tread depth. Vilven was great getting me the tires at a very reasonable price and in a short period of time. My initial impression of the tire was that it didn’t turn in nearly as quickly as the PSC and made the car feel heavier, bigger and less sharp than it had on the Pirelli Corsas it came with. The Corsas, by the way, feel very similar to PSCs.
After acclimating to the Toyo and finding hot pressures that I liked – 40 psi font/ 41 psi rear, I found the tire to be very predictable and relatively consistent throughout 20 minute run sessions . . .
I have never driven on Toyos before and have been using Michelin PSCs for several years. I ordered the tires from Vilven Tire and had them shaved to 3/32 tread depth. Vilven was great getting me the tires at a very reasonable price and in a short period of time. My initial impression of the tire was that it didn’t turn in nearly as quickly as the PSC and made the car feel heavier, bigger and less sharp than it had on the Pirelli Corsas it came with. The Corsas, by the way, feel very similar to PSCs.
After acclimating to the Toyo and finding hot pressures that I liked – 40 psi font/ 41 psi rear, I found the tire to be very predictable and relatively consistent throughout 20 minute run sessions . . .
You said that your car is box stock with circuit alignment. Did you notice what your sway bars were set to? There seems to be a number of different opinions about baseline sway bar settings, mostly coming from the RS camp.
Thanks for your help - great write up!
07-09-2007, 10:51 PM
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Lawjdc,
The front sway bar is set to one off of full soft. The rear is set to full stiff. I have not moved them from the way it was delivered. I was tempted to stiffen both bars up this weekend in an attempt to make the car transfer weight more quickly; however, it was working so well there was no real reason to mess with it. How did you like Barber? I haven’t been there in the new car yet, but I really enjoyed that track in previous car, a 993 RS replica.
The Toyos feel like really sticky gumballs. They accept big slip angles and communicate the grip level at each corner very well. Once I started to understand them, I really liked them. The next time I am at the track, I'll play with tire pressures a little more but I think I've found a really great set of knocking-around tires! If you haven't had your car at the track yet, you are in for a very big treat! It is brilliantly amazing. If it weren't so silly and I knew who to write, I'd write a letter to Porsche congratulating them on the stunning achievement this car is.
Hank
Edited to correct the rear sway bar setting. I had originally stated in error that it was set to full soft. It is full stiff.
The front sway bar is set to one off of full soft. The rear is set to full stiff. I have not moved them from the way it was delivered. I was tempted to stiffen both bars up this weekend in an attempt to make the car transfer weight more quickly; however, it was working so well there was no real reason to mess with it. How did you like Barber? I haven’t been there in the new car yet, but I really enjoyed that track in previous car, a 993 RS replica.
The Toyos feel like really sticky gumballs. They accept big slip angles and communicate the grip level at each corner very well. Once I started to understand them, I really liked them. The next time I am at the track, I'll play with tire pressures a little more but I think I've found a really great set of knocking-around tires! If you haven't had your car at the track yet, you are in for a very big treat! It is brilliantly amazing. If it weren't so silly and I knew who to write, I'd write a letter to Porsche congratulating them on the stunning achievement this car is.
Hank
Edited to correct the rear sway bar setting. I had originally stated in error that it was set to full soft. It is full stiff.
Last edited by Hank Cohn; 07-10-2007 at 12:06 AM.
07-09-2007, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Hank Cohn
Lawjdc,
The front sway bar is set to one off of full soft. The rear is set to full soft.
Hank
The front sway bar is set to one off of full soft. The rear is set to full soft.
Hank
btw, your tire pressure is very close to ideal. i like them around 40psi hot all around, confirmed by pyrometer as well.
07-10-2007, 12:04 AM
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Mooty,
You're catching all my mistakes today! Thanks for sending me out to the garage with a flashlight and mirror in my robe. My wife thinks I'm crazy. Perhaps, she's right and so are you. The rear is at full stiff. I'll edit my prior post to correct the error.
Hank
You're catching all my mistakes today! Thanks for sending me out to the garage with a flashlight and mirror in my robe. My wife thinks I'm crazy. Perhaps, she's right and so are you. The rear is at full stiff. I'll edit my prior post to correct the error.
Hank
07-10-2007, 01:28 AM
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hank, someone's got to keep you honest ;-)
at least you know SOMEONE is really paying attention to your RA1 info.
crazy... hahaha, i have four lights totaling about 2000 watts in the garage to facilitate me washing the car around 2-3:00am after track days.
at least you know SOMEONE is really paying attention to your RA1 info.
crazy... hahaha, i have four lights totaling about 2000 watts in the garage to facilitate me washing the car around 2-3:00am after track days.
07-10-2007, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Hank Cohn
Lawjdc,
The front sway bar is set to one off of full soft. The rear is set to full stiff. I have not moved them from the way it was delivered. I was tempted to stiffen both bars up this weekend in an attempt to make the car transfer weight more quickly; however, it was working so well there was no real reason to mess with it. How did you like Barber? I haven’t been there in the new car yet, but I really enjoyed that track in previous car, a 993 RS replica.
The Toyos feel like really sticky gumballs. They accept big slip angles and communicate the grip level at each corner very well. Once I started to understand them, I really liked them. The next time I am at the track, I'll play with tire pressures a little more but I think I've found a really great set of knocking-around tires! If you haven't had your car at the track yet, you are in for a very big treat! It is brilliantly amazing. If it weren't so silly and I knew who to write, I'd write a letter to Porsche congratulating them on the stunning achievement this car is.
Hank
Edited to correct the rear sway bar setting. I had originally stated in error that it was set to full soft. It is full stiff.
The front sway bar is set to one off of full soft. The rear is set to full stiff. I have not moved them from the way it was delivered. I was tempted to stiffen both bars up this weekend in an attempt to make the car transfer weight more quickly; however, it was working so well there was no real reason to mess with it. How did you like Barber? I haven’t been there in the new car yet, but I really enjoyed that track in previous car, a 993 RS replica.
The Toyos feel like really sticky gumballs. They accept big slip angles and communicate the grip level at each corner very well. Once I started to understand them, I really liked them. The next time I am at the track, I'll play with tire pressures a little more but I think I've found a really great set of knocking-around tires! If you haven't had your car at the track yet, you are in for a very big treat! It is brilliantly amazing. If it weren't so silly and I knew who to write, I'd write a letter to Porsche congratulating them on the stunning achievement this car is.
Hank
Edited to correct the rear sway bar setting. I had originally stated in error that it was set to full soft. It is full stiff.
Thanks again.