Nordschleife

With one of my hats I work with small automotive manufacturers on strategic marketing projects. Such as expanding export markets, or finding investors for special projects. From time to time I provide financial/management services to race teams.

As an enthusiast i sometimes help my clients in practical ways, such as demonstrating the car at a presentation or helping with development tasks.

Thre are a few people who want special cars built to their particular order, se4veral of these have appoached me for guidance around the mostly German, British and Italian manufactuers who are able to do this.

As far as the leather goes, I was in Italy the other day looking at a car that was entirely finished in ostrich and eel skin, it wasn't exactly tasteful, but it was interesting, as a curiosity.

R+C

normank

R+C

That all sounds very interesting and exciting. You are a lucky man to have a job which satisfies your passion. When you say people want "special" cars do you think with today's technology and the ability to modify (almost endlessly from what I read), what would these people typically be looking for in design or power or handling that would require a one off project?

After a month with my car I am satisfied with the Alcantara. I find you don't slide around as much as on full leather and the overall look, while not a home run has it's appeal. I know Ostrich if very durable and the bird's eye surface is attractive. Other than a wallet or bill fold, I'm not sure about the eel skin.

On a technical note: I have the standard brakes on my car and after 500 miles or so, they have started to squeak when coming to a stop from a slow speed. Can anything be done?

Thank you for taking the time to answer. I didn't mean to pry, but I see you post quite often and with authority and was curious.
Norman

Nordschleife

Norman

In a word, the eel skin is tarty. One of my sisters has a brief case in eelskin and it looks good, and I have a pair of travelling slippers in eelskin, that does seem to be the right place for it. This car was going to somewhere in the Far East, which might account for the bizarre taste.

500 miles - squeaky brakes, I bet all the material you carefully transferred to the rotors when bedding them in has been polished off during careful around town driving - bed them in again, or spend 15 minutes of your life gett8ing in touch with your inner petrol head somewhere you can have fun.....

R+C

cannga

Hello R+C,

Thanks for taking the time to answer. Clearly you are the expert on this issue so the following is really a question so I could learn from you, no sarcasm intended.

I am in the process of ordering my 997tt, and therefore have read a lot on PCCP's supposed advantages (less weight, less dust, looks good, less fade, more durable, etc., etc.). When it comes to the actual braking performance, the one parameter that counts, I've seen no objective data of a shorter stopping distance. All I could find is that "better initial bite" comment. From a lot of users, including those who have BOTH steel and ceramic and therefore would be in a position to do daily comparison.

So if I were to ask you to devise a test to prove, or disprove, that the initial bite is better, how would you do it? Since this is braking done before ABS gets triggered, I don't think stomping on the brake simulates the condition. Wouldn't a measurement of the time, or distance, from say 70 to 40 mph, or 90 to 60, etc., be the test?

Nordschleife

Initial bite is very subjective. We could measure it, given a lot of onboard equipment which is only feasible on a test or race car.

However, there is a test that could be performed easily. Get half a dozen different sets of brake pads and try them out. You will be surprised how different they are. Most of the time, the pads fitted to the cars with PCCBs have more bite than the pads fitted to the cars with iron rotors.

You will find some pads have as much if not more bite when used on the iron rotors than the ones which are used with the PCCB rotors.

Some pads will work better with iron rotors than with PCCBs and vice versa.

Understandably, people want the PCCBs to be better, they cost enough after all, the idea that the difference in bite could be down to the pads rather than the rotors hasn't always occurred to them.

When PAG first started testing the PCCBs, they were getting retardation of the order of -1.6G. However, they were too noisy, and had severe longevity problems. So the material was reformulated to align the strands so the cut ends were not on the surface of the rotors. This, and other measures reduced the performance of the brakes, they certainly became quieter, and lasted longer, but were not the 100,000 kilometer rotors the original documentation boasted back in Frankfurt in 1999.

Some people like a lot of initial bite, some are less keen, I prefer it as I like to get my hard braking done as soon as possible, I want the braking system working at its maximum as soon as possible.

I would imagine that on a Turbo, the PCCBs would be fine, they tend not to be driven abusively on the track. I'd still take care not to get the rotors abraded by spinning into the kitty litter, however, it could get expensive.

R+C

normank

I hope to do just that next weekend.

By the way, what do think is the correct break in mileage for the GT3? Salesman says 500 miles. Service advisor says 1,000 miles. Owner's manual says 2,000 miles.

Nordschleife

and the factory says - 'break-in, what's break in?'

Norman, you are in South Florida, which, as far as I can recall has high temperatures and high humidity at this time of year. I would err on the safe side and put in the very best gas.

Why not hire an out of work bean counter and get him to drive two hundred slow miles every day for the next seven days.......

R+C

normank

And here I was giving the British credit for a dry sense of humor. Your point is taken and I will refrain from impersonating a bean counter in the future. Your recollection of hot and humid is correct. The best (highest octane) gas generally available is 93 Octane. Cheveron is the name that pops up most often. Stay tuned for updates.

cannga

Hello,

Thank you for sharing your considerable knowledge.

So the sensation of better initial bite *might* be for real and not just in people's head? As subjective as it is, do brake engineers consider &/or measure this parameter when they design brakes?

The million dollar question is then: Assume that the PCCB does have better bite than Big Red, and that this could be affected by pads, what brake pads would you change to to make Big Red equals PCCB? Do you have some idea of what the answer would be?

I hope you notice I didn't say "PCCB is better than steel" (I've been educated. ), only that "*assume* this version of PCCB in the Porsche has better initial bite than the Steel version in the same car--the Big Red."

Thanks and regards,
Can

cannga

Is "retardation of -1.6G" considered a very good number? And does the revised version of the Porsche PCCB achieve the same number?

Regards,
Can

Nordschleife

Well, if we look at the Pagid range, I would try RS4-2-1 Black to establish a baseline feel, and then the RS29 Yellows and RS15 Greys. At this stage we are not worrying about longevity of pad or rotor or the amount of dust. See what you like, in terms of feel. Then see if you can get some Carbone Lorraine rally pads, (darn hard to get retail, if not unobtainium), Ferodo says no street use for all their full on pads.

Now expect to have to rebed the brakes on an ongoing basis if you go for the more extreme compounds.

As far as feel goes, thats one of the things the engineers listen to the test drivers about, as I said, its hard to measure. The problem is, do enough brake testing and likely as not, the tester will end up preferring a brake that the average Joe thinks is far too abrupt. But these characteristics make fine tools when you are balancing the car on the limits of adhesion, braking and turning, with this set up its easier to deliberately transfer weight to the front axle. Another benefit of really good initial bite is that its easy to make your headlights bounce up and down when you come behind a slow mover at night, all it takes is a tiny tap and you are on your way.

I like the Big Reds, but they are 'old' technology these days.

Just to show I'm not biased, these are an upcoming testing project - different formulation from PCCB. The supplier claims -

- less weight
- better handling
- better acceleration
- higher lifetime
- lower long term cost
- less temperature compared to other ceramic rotors



R+C

Max Power

unfortunately that doesn't work in the USA. the slowpoke in the left lane ain't movin

eclou

Not for a Porsche. Now if you are in a lifted 3/4 ton pickup pickup with a brush guard, they seem to scurry over like nervous rats

cannga

>>>>>>Another benefit of really good initial bite is that its easy to make your headlights bounce up and down when you come behind a slow mover at night, all it takes is a tiny tap and you are on your way.

Thanks for the good laugh. Very funny.

Between Porsche PCCB and Porsche Big Red, *assuming* that the PCCB brake does have better initial bite, is there an explanation as to why they have the same 60-0 stopping distance?? Put it another way, does the fact that these 2 have identical stopping distances imply the the better initial bite is in the driver's head and not real?

What part of the Big Red's technology is old?

I hope my questions make sense to you. Your answers have been educational; thanks again.

Regards,
Can

Nordschleife

Without drawing graphs, which are proprietary to manufacturers and suppliers, I can't easily 'explain' why the car with 'sudden on' braking effect is no better overall than one with a less 'immediate on' effect. Except to point out that some pad materials work well cold and some improve in performance as they warm up.

The former type of pad material will often exhibit 'good initial bite', whilst the latter pad which needs to warm up to achieve its optimal retardation characteristics will appear more gradual in action and maximum retardation will notr be exhibited until optimum temperatures have been achieved. However, once these temperatures have been achieved, the redardation effect is greater.

Big Reds - 'old technology' - I assume you are talking about the classic big red from the 993 generation.

The latest greatest for the road have six piston callipers (not 8, for reasons which will become obvious), are monobloc machined from single aerograde aluminium billet. These have optimally placed fluid pipes to minimise temperature elevation. Further they are supported by bolts at the point where flexion under clamping load is most likely, this is not the case with the classic 'Big Red'.

When the Big Red was conceived, cars were lighter. With the increase in the weight of cars, we need more powerful braking systems, which involves larger swept rotor/pad areas, greater diameter, fatter, heavier brake rotors to increase their heat capacity and hence the amount of work they are capable of doing, greater effective clamping forces (not just more clamp force but less flexion). The latest brakes make improvements in all these areas.

As far as the issue of 6 piston versus 8 piston is concerned - get out a set of pads for a 6 piston calliper and put the double sets of pads for the 8 piston callipers next to them. You don't have to measure anything, you can see that the 6 piston pads have larger swept areas than the fiddly little 8 piston pads. In fact, we have seen amateur drivers out drive Le Mans outright winners on track because the pads in the 8 piston calliper cars caught fire under use on track.

The issue of weight should not be ignored, I was surprised when I drove the 997 Turbo, admittedly at high speeds, to seriously run out of brakes. This is not the way it normally is with Porsche.

R+C