willr

Is that while driving at 180+ mph, or decelerating after a tyre failure?

Now that's what I call extreme driving!

Nordschleife

40 mph is quite enough for those kinds of bumps, with normal rotors you feel thhe thump through the steering weel and through the wheelwell, with lightweight PCCB style rotors, the thump through the wheel well is hardly felt

R+C

cannga

I have a few hobbies: car, audio (tube pre-amp, Linn turntable), video, photography; am sort of nutty about all of them, pushing my wife to the edge sometimes. Something tells me asking her to drive my manual Turbo while I am upside down next to her with my head down in the footwell might just be the "final straw."

As mentioned, your answers have been very helpful and educational; I am glad I wandered onto this thread. I am not done with you yet though.

Thanks and regards,
Can

triode

Cool, another audiophile on here...I too am a "tube guy", every one of the components in my big rig is tubed, with Lamm ML2s feeding my beloved Avantgarde Duo Omegas at the business end. Rock on, brother.

I now return you to the original thread topic...

cannga

There are a couple of "paradoxes" about the Porsche PCCB system that I observe.
One, the system lasts longer than iron as far as normal wear and tear is concerned, yet is actually more fragile on the track.
Two, as a result of one, although PCCB's performance advantages such as reduced weight, better initial bite, and less fade make it great for the track, the system is best reserved for street use, where the latest generation, PCCB 2/3?, has been reliable.

With respect to your quote below and acknowledging that I'm being "clever" here, would you have accepted my premise better if I had stated:
"Using stock pads, PCCB has better bite than most iron rotors, such as Porsche's own iron rotors, but not the best iron rotors"?

Are your main "objections" (if any, don't mean to misquote you) to PCCB its fragility on the track or with accidental stone/rock/etc., and the obscene replacement cost? And not any performance issue over the standard Porsche offering?

Thanks and regards, sorry I can't help asking you more questions.

Can

cannga

Are those very pretty brakes you are testing made by SGL Carbon/PCCB? If not, is this way of manufacturing the direction that PCCB is heading as well?

Do you agree with the notion that ceramic brake will become more widely accepted in other cars and therefore initial and replacement cost will eventually come down?

cannga

OT: Awesome system you got there. My main is Thiel/Krell, the pre-amp and phono stage both tube Conrad Johnson, and Koetsu Rosewood for my Linn tt. I have other speakers (Quad, Apogee, Martin Logan, Magnepan) around the house somewhere.

ALWAYS curious about the triode sound and more specifically the Avantgarde that you have!

GrantG

Me too. Love your screen name. Here's a little bit on my system (out of date):
http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/friends/grantg.html

Nordschleife

What is 'normal ' wear and tear, my road driving is generally tougher than track driving because of 'massive stops' from cold, even 'normal' traffic is tough on brakes, eg down from 300 to 100 every 5-6 minutes (hence my preference for gettring up early). This is a different kind of punishment to setting the pads alight on the track through consistent overheating.

I do think that they are good for street use, as long as you don't live in Virginia City and work in Carson and use the commute to create time.

'being clever?' - I'm used to Medieval schoolmen. William of Ockham and Thomas Aquinas were proto speedheads.

I wouold say that PAG's initial choice of rotor and pad materials led to the resultant brake system exhibiting favourable bite characteristics.

and the fact that the 'improved' braking performance isn't there, in any meaningful cost effective manner. Combine this with the risk of failure in use and they aren't at the top of my list, BUT, I will explain how the rotors which I do like are created over the next week or so.

R+C

Nordschleife

The brakes are not manufactured in the same way as PCCBs, they are consistent in structure throughout, I'll set out the process later.

They are not made by SGL Carbon. The rotors are made by a small specialist high tech company that does aerospace work. The pads are made by a major pad manufacturer to meet specific requirements. I expect them to become widely used in the near future, however, given present exchange rates, I do not expect them to be widely used in the US until volume continuous production techniques reduce prices.



R+C

cannga

>eg down from 300 to 100 every 5-6 minutes :

I hate to break this to you, but this is hardly what most people would consider "normal." Anyway, allow me re-state then: "For normal people's driving, PCCB lasts longer than the standard Porsche iron offering. Maybe not 250k miles, but more like 100,000 miles between rotor changes." More acceptable?

>BUT, I will explain how the rotors which I do like are created over the next week or so.

Please do.

>I would say that PAG's initial choice of rotor and pad materials led to the resultant brake system exhibiting favourable bite characteristics.

You are impossible to pin down. But fair enough. I'll do the "reading between the lines" on my own time.

BTW, do you happen to know who supplies the OEM ceramic brake for Ferrari please? I've read that in the Maranello, it's Brembo. I thought Brembo doesn't have a ceramic system yet? Is there any other major supplier/developer of consumers' ceramic/carbon brake, besides SGL?

Lastly, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Ockham

cannga

I've not read, at least not in such succinct/definite terms, how significant and easily felt a 35 lbs weight saving is. So PCCB owners fear not, the money does do something very important, weight loss on the brake?

*Assuming* that one would like to upgrade from the (already excellent) standard Big Red, the 2 most common options that I know are:
1. Brembo GT. Cost (someone corrects me if I am wrong--could be totally off) $7500 or less for parts, plus labor.
2. PCCB. $8840

Much has been made of PCCB's failure to improve upon the stopping distance of stock; in fact the topic of this thread. I have searched but have not been able to find any objective test result for Brembo. Do you happen to know if Brembo GT has been shown to have shorter stopping distance than either Big Red or PCCB, in the 911?

Have you had a chance to test cars equipped with either ? Either yes or no, do you have any opinions regarding the pro's and con's of each system in direct comparison to each other? For a car mostly driven on streets, possibly to the track once/twice per year, and unlikely to be "abused" (none of that 300 to 100 "stuff" ) even if taken to the track?

Thanks and regards,
Can

Nordschleife

well, given that Munich is the most significant Pcar market in Europe (MAHAG claims the title of biggest Pcar dealer (in the world)), it is not coincidental that the A99 ring road has sections (not all of it some has speed controls and cameras), where there is rarely heavy traffic, 300kph becomes something that one experiences on a daily basis. Then having a number of fine Autobahnen in the area, high speed becomes a regular phenomenon, particularly as you pick up test drivers from Lamborghini, Audi, MTM et al hurrying between Ingolstadt and Neckarsulm.

I have noticed that there are some fine roads around Le Mans which are free of police and traffic even during the week leading up to the 24 Hour race.


I would say that PAG's initial choice of rotor and pad materials led to the resultant brake system exhibiting favourable bite characteristics.

I am being careful because we are discussing a 'moving target'. Since the PCCBs were introduced at the IAA in Frankfurt in 1999, their formulation has changed and the claims made about them have similarly varied. So I am being particularly careful in discussing what is an increasingly amorphous topic.

I don't 'know' who supplies all the rotors to Brembo, AP, Alcon, who go on to supply to Ferrari, Mercedes, Porsche. Its an area I try and stay out of, for political reasons. I do know that Ferrari's experience with composite rotors has been no better than Porsche's. However, how often have you come across a Ferrari being driven hard? This maay account for the difference in publicity.

There is more than one supplier of composite rotors, the ones in the photographs are not manufactured by SGL.

Thanks for the Ockham reference, as it happens, my English office is just down the road from Ockham, in fact in Occam Road, and I worked with Ockam Instruments developing race systems, so I am somewhat familiar with his ideas mas well as completely confused by how to spell his name.
R+C

Nordschleife

If you read Sport Auto and Auto Motor und Sport, yoiu will see numerous tests of modified cars. In these tests the braking performance is usually measured. A lot of tuners fit the upgraded Brembo or AP brakes. If yoiu go to top line brakes, you will spend a lot of money and get terrific performance. However, for most people who notice the difference between good brakes and very good brakes, the life cycle performance of PCCBs is not superior to that of the best iron rotor based systems, whether you are measuring economic or retardation factors.

My only doubt about the Brembo 'big' rotors is that there is not a lot of 'meat' in them (saves weight). There is no doubt that the top line Brembos are state of the art, although I prefer the bloke who builds my systems.

I have read a review of the top line Brembo system in one of the 911 magazines (Porsche World, I think, tested the set up fitted to a Pcar belonging to a Brembo distributor on the left coast), it was very complimentary.

I have driven lots of different brake systems, including the ones you mention. Many of them are great for a short time, to be fair, brakes should be tested over their life cycle and any testing should include track and street driving.

As I'm not in the business of selling brakes, although I don't entirely discount the possibility, my testing tends to be 'are these as good as those I am presently using?', 'No, ok, forget about them'.

Finally, if a car is not going to be thrashed, I can't see why you shouldn't fit PCCBs. However, if you aren't going to ask the car serious questions, why spend so much on brakes? Yes, it is 'nicer' to drive a car with less unsprung weight. Are you going to take the weight loss campaign to its logical conclusions - Magnesium wheels, Titanium nuts and studs, Ti springs, TTX40 dampers (or simiolar), even switching to leightweight racing hubs with centrelocks and lightweight spacers? But there is absolutely no doubt that cars with lightweight rotors are 'nicer' to drive than ones with heavy rotors.

Would I buy PCCBs, yes, if I received a separate written warranty signed by two authorised signataries. But I am hopeful that the alternatives are better.

I do know that one US brake manufacturer has taken an 'interest' in these new rotors. However, exchange rates have moved against this sort of product. How many people are prepared to pay five figure sums for brakes. The manufacturer is still transitioning from being an R&D organisation to a production business.

R+C

Terry Adams

As with many great products, most R&D is done by the factory and a little by the early adopters in the first few product generations. I am gladly paying the price for the overall benefits, least of which appears to be improved stopping distances.