Finally, Definitive Answer from Porsche: NO '08 RS
05-07-2007, 01:46 AM
#46
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Originally Posted by cosmos
Give me your spot or I will Kung Foo Grip you!!
jeff, dont forget to send me my cut when evan paid up.
05-08-2007, 06:00 PM
#47
Good friend at Ruznak Pasadena said the RS will continue into '08. he just got back from the factory in Germany. remember, Porsche is a business......the more they make, the more $$$ they have in the bank...
05-08-2007, 07:54 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by HMS
...Porsche is a business......the more they make, the more $$$ they have in the bank...
There may not be a 2008 RS...but IMO it would be to allow for GT2 production, and will be followed by a facelifted RS (along with the rest of the 997 line-up) for 2009.
05-08-2007, 08:07 PM
#49
The demand for more RS's is not there. Remember there were many people - including people on this board - who passed on their RS allocation - that in itself tells you the demand for this car. It doesn't exist.
05-08-2007, 09:04 PM
#50
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by RR
The demand for more RS's is not there. Remember there were many people - including people on this board - who passed on their RS allocation - that in itself tells you the demand for this car. It doesn't exist.
05-08-2007, 09:30 PM
#51
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RR definitely don't agree with you. RS's have been getting irrational money. Personally, I think it's insane to pay over MSRP on a decontented US RS, though I do get its appeal at MSRP.
05-08-2007, 09:31 PM
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Last year in passing, I told a dealer buddy that I would be interested in an rs without any expectation that I would be getting one (as he explained his allocation of 1 was spoken for). Then 3 weeks ago he tells me that the buyer "fell thru" and I could have a carrara white rs that just arrived in port. So I pounced and have been driving my new car daily for one week. Just around town, mind you, and keeping below 5k rpm but nevertheless I'm hooked on this car. It looks every bit as badass as you could want in a street car and it's as engaging around town, within limits obviously, as anything I've owned or driven. Period.
I don't care much if they offer the rs again in '08 but hope they've learned something from previous "overruns" on their specials. JMHO.
I don't care much if they offer the rs again in '08 but hope they've learned something from previous "overruns" on their specials. JMHO.
05-08-2007, 09:37 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by kjslider
Last year in passing, I told a dealer buddy that I would be interested in an rs without any expectation that I would be getting one (as he explained his allocation of 1 was spoken for). Then 3 weeks ago he tells me that the buyer "fell thru" and I could have a carrara white rs that just arrived in port. So I pounced and have been driving my new car daily for one week. Just around town, mind you, and keeping below 5k rpm but nevertheless I'm hooked on this car. It looks every bit as badass as you could want in a street car and it's as engaging around town, within limits obviously, as anything I've owned or driven. Period.
I don't care much if they offer the rs again in '08 but hope they've learned something from previous "overruns" on their specials. JMHO.
I don't care much if they offer the rs again in '08 but hope they've learned something from previous "overruns" on their specials. JMHO.
JCM
05-08-2007, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by RR
The demand for more RS's is not there. Remember there were many people - including people on this board - who passed on their RS allocation - that in itself tells you the demand for this car. It doesn't exist.
JCM
05-08-2007, 09:47 PM
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You've got to be kidding...
Originally Posted by RR
The demand for more RS's is not there. Remember there were many people - including people on this board - who passed on their RS allocation - that in itself tells you the demand for this car. It doesn't exist.
RR,
You have got to be kidding. There were, supposedly, people on this board that passed, but some of them have regretted it (I have had PM's from people on this board that have said so, so I believe that to be true). However, that has nothing to do with demand out there in the big bad world. It's like trying to determine a person's height by the color of their eyes.
But this does have something to do with demand...My dealership had 15 people on the RS list before they refused to take any more deposits (last JULY), and they got three cars (which they sold at MSRP). They have since acquired two cars at big premiums to MSRP ($30K+) and flipped them to customers at around $50K over list. And there are a bunch of cars (five, six?) that you can find that are all around $180k-200k on the internet or dealers' websites. As I have said in other posts, my dealership sold 17 CGT's at $440K MSRP, so I have no doubt they could sell twenty RS's at list if they could get their hands on them. (think the market is bigger for a $140K MSRP car than for one $300K more? Duh.)
Is the RS a good deal at a price of $40K-50K over MSRP? Probably not, if you don't want to suffer significant depreciation over the next five years (and I don't), but if you really want to have the hottest car (in terms of supply/demand imbalance) that Porsche has ever brought to the United States and are relatively price insensitive, and you don't have an "in" at a dealer somewhere or didn't know a year ago that you were going to really want one, that the price you pay TODAY. Or, as many others on this list have said, you will wait till there is another "gotta have it car" and buy the 997 RS at an attractive price in the pre-owned marketplace. Either strategy is defensible.
As to the oft repeated "truth" that Porsche will make as many as they can sell, I think that was true of the CGT and that Porsche realizes that that policy was a big mistake (long term) for the company and a disservice to it's customers: if you bought a Ferrari Enzo for $650K, you can now sell it for $1.0-1.2million. A $450K CGT will fetch $350K (or there abouts). Which do you wish you had bought? Now, PAG wants to sell another "supercar" (which is true, by the way). How many CGT owners will raise their hand? A whole lot fewer than would have (and did) five or six years ago. And THAT IS BAD FOR PAG. By limiting production of a hot car (and only 682 996 RS's were produced, by the way), PAG would be attempting to build longer term credibility with the segment of the enthusiast population that can pay $500K (or more) for a car, but doesn't want to feel like a chump in terms of depreciation when there are other alternatives (Enzo? Pagani? etc.) that will hold their value MUCH better. The CGT was a new thrill for PAG, and it was a brillliant engineering success and a marketing flop because of the aftermarket performance which was solely an issue of supply/demand. It is in PAG's best interest to fix that situation.
Price point is a factor here...Porsche sold 2,244 Turbos in the first four months. Annualized, that's about 6,000 annually in the US. The market for a $140K Porsche is huge. And by the way, do you really think there are THIRTY TIMES the number of buyers who would prefer to buy a Turbo rather than an RS? I sure don't..
Last year, Porsche produced and sold over 100,00 vehicles (cars and SUV's). The profit foregone on anothe 250 RS's (more or less) is negligible compared to the halo effect of having a hot, specialty car that enthusiasts love and will pay up for, particularly if that helps rebuild trust with the potential purchasers of the next CGT.
In any event, if it is a one year run, I think that is what's going on.
But, time will tell...
Ray
'07 RS
'05 CGT
'64 Carrera 2 Coupe
'62 Twin Grille Roadster
'55 Speedster
05-08-2007, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray Minella
RR,
You have got to be kidding. There were, supposedly, people on this board that passed, but some of them have regretted it (I have had PM's from people on this board that have said so, so I believe that to be true). However, that has nothing to do with demand out there in the big bad world. It's like trying to determine a person's height by the color of their eyes.
But this does have something to do with demand...My dealership had 15 people on the RS list before they refused to take any more deposits (last JULY), and they got three cars (which they sold at MSRP). They have since acquired two cars at big premiums to MSRP ($30K+) and flipped them to customers at around $50K over list. And there are a bunch of cars (five, six?) that you can find that are all around $180k-200k on the internet or dealers' websites. As I have said in other posts, my dealership sold 17 CGT's at $440K MSRP, so I have no doubt they could sell twenty RS's at list if they could get their hands on them. (think the market is bigger for a $140K MSRP car than for one $300K more? Duh.)
Is the RS a good deal at a price of $40K-50K over MSRP? Probably not, if you don't want to suffer significant depreciation over the next five years (and I don't), but if you really want to have the hottest car (in terms of supply/demand imbalance) that Porsche has ever brought to the United States and are relatively price insensitive, and you don't have an "in" at a dealer somewhere or didn't know a year ago that you were going to really want one, that the price you pay TODAY. Or, as many others on this list have said, you will wait till there is another "gotta have it car" and buy the 997 RS at an attractive price in the pre-owned marketplace. Either strategy is defensible.
As to the oft repeated "truth" that Porsche will make as many as they can sell, I think that was true of the CGT and that Porsche realizes that that policy was a big mistake (long term) for the company and a disservice to it's customers: if you bought a Ferrari Enzo for $650K, you can now sell it for $1.0-1.2million. A $450K CGT will fetch $350K (or there abouts). Which do you wish you had bought? Now, PAG wants to sell another "supercar" (which is true, by the way). How many CGT owners will raise their hand? A whole lot fewer than would have (and did) five or six years ago. And THAT IS BAD FOR PAG. By limiting production of a hot car (and only 682 996 RS's were produced, by the way), PAG would be attempting to build longer term credibility with the segment of the enthusiast population that can pay $500K (or more) for a car, but doesn't want to feel like a chump in terms of depreciation when there are other alternatives (Enzo? Pagani? etc.) that will hold their value MUCH better. The CGT was a new thrill for PAG, and it was a brillliant engineering success and a marketing flop because of the aftermarket performance which was solely an issue of supply/demand. It is in PAG's best interest to fix that situation.
Price point is a factor here...Porsche sold 2,244 Turbos in the first four months. Annualized, that's about 6,000 annually in the US. The market for a $140K Porsche is huge. And by the way, do you really think there are THIRTY TIMES the number of buyers who would prefer to buy a Turbo rather than an RS? I sure don't..
Last year, Porsche produced and sold over 100,00 vehicles (cars and SUV's). The profit foregone on anothe 250 RS's (more or less) is negligible compared to the halo effect of having a hot, specialty car that enthusiasts love and will pay up for, particularly if that helps rebuild trust with the potential purchasers of the next CGT.
In any event, if it is a one year run, I think that is what's going on.
But, time will tell...
Ray
'07 RS
'05 CGT
'64 Carrera 2 Coupe
'62 Twin Grille Roadster
'55 Speedster
You have got to be kidding. There were, supposedly, people on this board that passed, but some of them have regretted it (I have had PM's from people on this board that have said so, so I believe that to be true). However, that has nothing to do with demand out there in the big bad world. It's like trying to determine a person's height by the color of their eyes.
But this does have something to do with demand...My dealership had 15 people on the RS list before they refused to take any more deposits (last JULY), and they got three cars (which they sold at MSRP). They have since acquired two cars at big premiums to MSRP ($30K+) and flipped them to customers at around $50K over list. And there are a bunch of cars (five, six?) that you can find that are all around $180k-200k on the internet or dealers' websites. As I have said in other posts, my dealership sold 17 CGT's at $440K MSRP, so I have no doubt they could sell twenty RS's at list if they could get their hands on them. (think the market is bigger for a $140K MSRP car than for one $300K more? Duh.)
Is the RS a good deal at a price of $40K-50K over MSRP? Probably not, if you don't want to suffer significant depreciation over the next five years (and I don't), but if you really want to have the hottest car (in terms of supply/demand imbalance) that Porsche has ever brought to the United States and are relatively price insensitive, and you don't have an "in" at a dealer somewhere or didn't know a year ago that you were going to really want one, that the price you pay TODAY. Or, as many others on this list have said, you will wait till there is another "gotta have it car" and buy the 997 RS at an attractive price in the pre-owned marketplace. Either strategy is defensible.
As to the oft repeated "truth" that Porsche will make as many as they can sell, I think that was true of the CGT and that Porsche realizes that that policy was a big mistake (long term) for the company and a disservice to it's customers: if you bought a Ferrari Enzo for $650K, you can now sell it for $1.0-1.2million. A $450K CGT will fetch $350K (or there abouts). Which do you wish you had bought? Now, PAG wants to sell another "supercar" (which is true, by the way). How many CGT owners will raise their hand? A whole lot fewer than would have (and did) five or six years ago. And THAT IS BAD FOR PAG. By limiting production of a hot car (and only 682 996 RS's were produced, by the way), PAG would be attempting to build longer term credibility with the segment of the enthusiast population that can pay $500K (or more) for a car, but doesn't want to feel like a chump in terms of depreciation when there are other alternatives (Enzo? Pagani? etc.) that will hold their value MUCH better. The CGT was a new thrill for PAG, and it was a brillliant engineering success and a marketing flop because of the aftermarket performance which was solely an issue of supply/demand. It is in PAG's best interest to fix that situation.
Price point is a factor here...Porsche sold 2,244 Turbos in the first four months. Annualized, that's about 6,000 annually in the US. The market for a $140K Porsche is huge. And by the way, do you really think there are THIRTY TIMES the number of buyers who would prefer to buy a Turbo rather than an RS? I sure don't..
Last year, Porsche produced and sold over 100,00 vehicles (cars and SUV's). The profit foregone on anothe 250 RS's (more or less) is negligible compared to the halo effect of having a hot, specialty car that enthusiasts love and will pay up for, particularly if that helps rebuild trust with the potential purchasers of the next CGT.
In any event, if it is a one year run, I think that is what's going on.
But, time will tell...
Ray
'07 RS
'05 CGT
'64 Carrera 2 Coupe
'62 Twin Grille Roadster
'55 Speedster
WORD.
Jim Huber
05-08-2007, 11:19 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
Ray, I disagree. The people willing to pay $50k over MSRP for the "hottest 911", knowing it will likely depreciate $50-100k over the next 3+ years, are the same people that bought Carrera GTs for $450k and had cars depreciate...guess what...$100k in 3+ years. They are not sensitive to it. They will buy the next Porsche supercar regardless. Comparisons to the Enzo are irrelevant; chances are they have one of those, too. I don't see Porsche foregoing the profit of however many more RS's they could sell at $125k to somehow pacify the $500k supercar market, which is a completely different buyer. They are only putting money in the pockets of speculators and corrupt franchises.
And I wouldn't call the CGT a "marketing flop". The way I see it, every single one sent here could have been sold at MSRP, making it a success by your definition...but greedy dealers held on to cars hoping for big margins over MSRP, while the "gotta have it" crowd realized it was hard to drive, moved on to something else, and (relatively) flooded the market with used cars.
And I wouldn't call the CGT a "marketing flop". The way I see it, every single one sent here could have been sold at MSRP, making it a success by your definition...but greedy dealers held on to cars hoping for big margins over MSRP, while the "gotta have it" crowd realized it was hard to drive, moved on to something else, and (relatively) flooded the market with used cars.
05-08-2007, 11:20 PM
#58
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Ray Minella
. . . my dealership sold 17 CGT's at $440K MSRP, so I have no doubt they could sell twenty RS's at list if they could get their hands on them.
As to the oft repeated "truth" that Porsche will make as many as they can sell, I think that was true of the CGT and that Porsche realizes that that policy was a big mistake (long term) for the company and a disservice to it's customers: if you bought a Ferrari Enzo for $650K, you can now sell it for $1.0-1.2million. A $450K CGT will fetch $350K (or there abouts). Which do you wish you had bought? Now, PAG wants to sell another "supercar" (which is true, by the way). How many CGT owners will raise their hand? A whole lot fewer than would have (and did) five or six years ago. And THAT IS BAD FOR PAG. By limiting production of a hot car (and only 682 996 RS's were produced, by the way), PAG would be attempting to build longer term credibility with the segment of the enthusiast population that can pay $500K (or more) for a car, but doesn't want to feel like a chump in terms of depreciation when there are other alternatives (Enzo? Pagani? etc.) that will hold their value MUCH better. The CGT was a new thrill for PAG, and it was a brillliant engineering success and a marketing flop because of the aftermarket performance which was solely an issue of supply/demand. It is in PAG's best interest to fix that situation.
The profit foregone on anothe 250 RS's (more or less) is negligible compared to the halo effect of having a hot, specialty car that enthusiasts love and will pay up for, particularly if that helps rebuild trust with the potential purchasers of the next CGT.
As to the oft repeated "truth" that Porsche will make as many as they can sell, I think that was true of the CGT and that Porsche realizes that that policy was a big mistake (long term) for the company and a disservice to it's customers: if you bought a Ferrari Enzo for $650K, you can now sell it for $1.0-1.2million. A $450K CGT will fetch $350K (or there abouts). Which do you wish you had bought? Now, PAG wants to sell another "supercar" (which is true, by the way). How many CGT owners will raise their hand? A whole lot fewer than would have (and did) five or six years ago. And THAT IS BAD FOR PAG. By limiting production of a hot car (and only 682 996 RS's were produced, by the way), PAG would be attempting to build longer term credibility with the segment of the enthusiast population that can pay $500K (or more) for a car, but doesn't want to feel like a chump in terms of depreciation when there are other alternatives (Enzo? Pagani? etc.) that will hold their value MUCH better. The CGT was a new thrill for PAG, and it was a brillliant engineering success and a marketing flop because of the aftermarket performance which was solely an issue of supply/demand. It is in PAG's best interest to fix that situation.
The profit foregone on anothe 250 RS's (more or less) is negligible compared to the halo effect of having a hot, specialty car that enthusiasts love and will pay up for, particularly if that helps rebuild trust with the potential purchasers of the next CGT.
i agree the demand is there for more RS's!
but i don't think your analogy of the cgt vs. the enzo is quite fair.
you couldnt just walk in and buy and enzo for 650k.
you had to previously go through a lot of ferrari depreciation to have the slim chance to buy an enzo at 650k.
market at the time of intro was about the same as now (1.0-1.2m).
i was under the impression that the cgt was priced, and built in the numbers required to reach breakeven or profitability.
i think if porsche had the chance to go back in time they wouldnt reduce the numbers, but would scratch the whole project.
obviously they couldnt raise the price.
it's a lot easier to build a limited number of cars like the RS that is just a different version of a model built in high numbers then it would be to successfully produce a supercar in limited numbers based on leading edge technology at a price that people will pay to porsche.
(btw your dealer is has pretty good sales.
my dealer has never sold a cgt or a gt2
)
05-08-2007, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by RR
The demand for more RS's is not there. Remember there were many people - including people on this board - who passed on their RS allocation - that in itself tells you the demand for this car. It doesn't exist.
Everyone on my dealer's RS wait list who didn't get an RS (the dealer got 1 allocation) has "hung in there" with their deposits - the dealer still has our deposits. I was #3 and am now #2 on their wait list.
If every dealer has a wait list of 2, that's a good reason to build 400 more.
05-09-2007, 09:48 AM
#60
Getting your hands on an RS and flipping it for $50K, thats a 28% return. Name me one investment system right now where you can get 28%.
What I mean is the demand for the RS is there only for the investment opp and is being perpetuated even further b/c of that - which would fall flat if Porsche decides to build more cars. If that happens these cars WILL NOT hold their value b/c there is not enough intrinsic differences in the RS over the GT3 to sustain the premium, so the RS will go from tops to flops. If the RS had 50 more HP and 200kg less weight than the GT3 than I agree with you the demand could be sustained, but right now b/c the car is so similar to the GT3 the only thing sustaing this "false demand" is the premise that one can buy an RS and flip it for a $50k profit.
What I mean is the demand for the RS is there only for the investment opp and is being perpetuated even further b/c of that - which would fall flat if Porsche decides to build more cars. If that happens these cars WILL NOT hold their value b/c there is not enough intrinsic differences in the RS over the GT3 to sustain the premium, so the RS will go from tops to flops. If the RS had 50 more HP and 200kg less weight than the GT3 than I agree with you the demand could be sustained, but right now b/c the car is so similar to the GT3 the only thing sustaing this "false demand" is the premise that one can buy an RS and flip it for a $50k profit.