GT3 Vs Audi R8?
#31
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Originally Posted by RR
alan,
give us a break.
Without Porsche's help, the R8 will be a dud. 100% guaranteed.
Do you not think if the Z8 was well received that BMW would still be building it, just like they still continue to build X5's, X3's, etc. Come on give your head a shake.
The R8 is neither a sports car nor a sedan, just like the Z8 was. BMW had the M5 for that, just as Audi has the RS4, RS6. The market for sports cars isn't that huge to be honest, and the R8 has no place in it. If you feel that strongly go buy one and find out.
give us a break.
Without Porsche's help, the R8 will be a dud. 100% guaranteed.
Do you not think if the Z8 was well received that BMW would still be building it, just like they still continue to build X5's, X3's, etc. Come on give your head a shake.
The R8 is neither a sports car nor a sedan, just like the Z8 was. BMW had the M5 for that, just as Audi has the RS4, RS6. The market for sports cars isn't that huge to be honest, and the R8 has no place in it. If you feel that strongly go buy one and find out.
My other point was that the R8 was conceived as a 911 competitor. Now that Porsche has interest in the company, why would Porsche "help" evolve the car?
#32
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Originally Posted by Alan Smithee
Ease up on the attitude, chief. Just pointing out that the Z8 was successful, as there was demand when new and continues to be today...hardly what one would consider a "flop", even if it doesn't fit your personal definition of "sports car".
My other point was that the R8 was conceived as a 911 competitor. Now that Porsche is interest in the company, why would Porsche "help" evolve the car?
My other point was that the R8 was conceived as a 911 competitor. Now that Porsche is interest in the company, why would Porsche "help" evolve the car?
didn't mean to come off like that...but if it was good, they'd still be building it.
cheers.
R
#33
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Originally Posted by RR
sorry dude,
didn't mean to come off like that...but if it was good, they'd still be building it.
cheers.
R
didn't mean to come off like that...but if it was good, they'd still be building it.
cheers.
R
With 7 year old cars retaining 80-90% of their value, I don't think it can be argued that there continues to be demand for the Z8...but whether BMW made enough money on it to justify a successor is another issue entirely. It was more of a testbed for aluminum construction, and once E39 M5 production ceased...along with the fabulous motor...the end was near for the Z8. There were a few Alpina cars with the tweaked standard V8 and auto tranny built because demand for the car was still there, but it wasn't the same.
BMW has been talking about a Z8 successor for a while. The BMW V10 is a sweet motor. I'd love to see that in a sports car competing with the 911 and R8...but as you correctly stated, the market for $100k sports cars is not large, so I doubt they can make a business case for it. Besides, Bangle would screw up the design anyway.
#34
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Originally Posted by PSC
The R8 is a numbers cars, toned down to appeal to a broad range of owners. It will be too refined (ie characterless) versus GT3.
Over last month I've driven, 599, 430 (fixed head and spyder), Gallardo Spyder, Aston Vanquish S and DB9. The only car that gets close to my GT3 RS is the 430.
The Gallardo was big disappointment, it feels heavy/ponderous compared to lithe, adjustable GT3 and its engine is not remotely as musical.
I can see R8 stealing sales from regular 997 but suspect the new M3 will steal more.
IMO Porsche should be more worried about the M3.
Over last month I've driven, 599, 430 (fixed head and spyder), Gallardo Spyder, Aston Vanquish S and DB9. The only car that gets close to my GT3 RS is the 430.
The Gallardo was big disappointment, it feels heavy/ponderous compared to lithe, adjustable GT3 and its engine is not remotely as musical.
I can see R8 stealing sales from regular 997 but suspect the new M3 will steal more.
IMO Porsche should be more worried about the M3.
A friend drove two Gallardo's while shopping for a used one. One felt like the front tyres were flat, the second felt like it had been supercharged and lightened by about 500lbs -- he described it as scary fast and turns in like a race car. The first car was like you'd expect a heavy AWD to feel. The two were so different, well, he smartened up and bought a 911, but he was impressed by the second Gallardo, although it did raise the question of why two near zero mile cars would feel so different -- both were in immaculate condition for sale by the same dealer. His description of the second example was appealing, but too much show for too little go.
#35
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Originally Posted by frayed
You think that a modded lambo chassis and an RS4 derivative motor makes the car proven?
When people on this board speak of proven, they're talking about how well sorted the entire car is based on generations of cars before it, and depth of engineering based on racing experience.
The R8? Comparatively none, releative to the yardstick people are using.
When people on this board speak of proven, they're talking about how well sorted the entire car is based on generations of cars before it, and depth of engineering based on racing experience.
The R8? Comparatively none, releative to the yardstick people are using.
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But if you want "a proven on the racing" car; there is none like the Carrera chassis, making the GT3's and GT3 RS' the real deal.
But I have no doubt that R8 is a bling-bling; not my cup of tea even though I am in So Cal.
#36
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Originally Posted by RR
alan,
give us a break....[cut]...
give us a break....[cut]...
#37
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Spent a "private" 1/2 hour with an R8 yesterday .............parked in a shed with other exotica in Dubai - all part of a Pirelli testing program (this was next to our porsche club track day event) - the R8 does have a bling / wow factor but that big vertical "slab" panel behind the driver door looks likle the next nissan 350 than something so elegant & aggro as a 911 variant.
Finish & detailing is immaculate though - something the 911's still fall short on - rattles & squeaks anyone ? Interestingly, parked behind the R8 was an Aston Vantage special with options I hadn't seen before (typical for Mid-East) ............... definitely in the same league as the R8 but also not a GT3 / RS competitor .................unless money was no object you wouldn't track either car very hard - both too smart - my wife luv'd them but is not sold on 911's !
Finish & detailing is immaculate though - something the 911's still fall short on - rattles & squeaks anyone ? Interestingly, parked behind the R8 was an Aston Vantage special with options I hadn't seen before (typical for Mid-East) ............... definitely in the same league as the R8 but also not a GT3 / RS competitor .................unless money was no object you wouldn't track either car very hard - both too smart - my wife luv'd them but is not sold on 911's !
#38
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Originally Posted by ///Mous3
Z8 is still sick! It is in another league interms of looking exclusive; period. It doesn't look no-where near mass-produced look.
I originaly had 2 P cars on order in 2001, a turbo, and a C2 with aero kit. What I really wanted was a gt3 but it wasn't available in the US. When I saw the Z8 I fell in love and bought it on the spot. I canceled the P CARS.
5 years later, I've now ordered an RS (due here next week) and a GT3 due mid March.
Why? Althought the Z8 is awesome. I have done many mods, and tracked it numerous times. But it is not a pure sports car, more an awesome touring car, for roadtrips through mountain passes, and at the same time a muscle car with seemingly endless power. It also meets my desire/love for the classic sports cars from the late fifties and early sixties. It is rare, bbeautiful, and special. I can't part with it, but my itch for a GT3 lives on.
As for being a flop! Never. As stated above, the Z8 was a test bed for new aluminum construction technology. Specifically for RR. The Z8 went out of production because:
1) It was a halo car, not a proffit center for BMW
2) The production line was turned over to Rolls as originally intended
3) The engine was no longer available, as the M5 was out of production
The Z8 which cost 134k new in 01, now goes for about 100k, and prices are climbing. A P turbo of the same vintage and miles, noow goes for about 80k-90k (I think) and continues to drop.
I've loved my 26k mi in the Z8, but lookfoorward to new and diiferent thrills in the RS.
As for the audi, iit's more like the Z8, a special car that does many things well, but is not in my mind a pure sports car.
#39
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How do you define "flop"? Seems to me all cars were sold at or above MSRP, and did so in the used market for years after (and are still commanding very high prices).
They're not worth very much now. See :Bmw Frame issue
Or
Reports that the front and rear shock towers may deform and bend the aluminum space frame are gaining increasing attention. The alleged tendency of the Z8's frame to warp under normal driving conditions has received mainstream press coverage in BusinessWeek, and the online Z8 owners' forums have been abuzz over this issue since early 2006. Some owners contend that only a full frame replacement can preserve the investment value and physical integrity of the car. BMW has issued a strut tower brace kit that it describes as a "performance package" in order to address the issue, but the unproven effectiveness of this package and the unclear fates of damaged cars suggests the frame-warp controversy will continue to smolder.
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Robin
#41
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I'd rather have the Gallardo than an R8. The R8 is like Coke C2 or some bastardization. Why not go for the real thing if you are leaning that way? Hell, if you want 4wd then get the 997TT. It offers 99.9% of the GT3/RS performance envelope in the dry, and 2x the performance in bad weather
#42
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I'd rather have the Gallardo than an R8. The R8 is like Coke C2 or some bastardization. Why not go for the real thing if you are leaning that way? Hell, if you want 4wd then get the 997TT. It offers 99.9% of the GT3/RS performance envelope in the dry, and 2x the performance in bad weather
Robin
#43
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Carerra
The Vantage is attractive because it has genuine character, unlike say the 997 TT. It's not great in any area but has genuine charm and I liked it more than say the Gallardo, perhaps because I had such high expectations for the Gallardo.
The Vantage reminds me slightly of the Gallardo from the way it handles, they both felt heavy and meaty.
Obviously the Gallardo massively faster, especially re traction on slippery roads.
The other aspects of the Gallardo I didn't like were cramped cockpit (not a safe place to be in a crash for anyone 6ft plus) and lousy turning circle.
In my dream garage I had the Gallardo Spyder pencilled in to partner my RS but now been replaced by Vantage Volante. (The 430 Spyder would stop me using ink).
Got the DB9 Volante at mo, what an elegant, understated beauty!
The Vantage is attractive because it has genuine character, unlike say the 997 TT. It's not great in any area but has genuine charm and I liked it more than say the Gallardo, perhaps because I had such high expectations for the Gallardo.
The Vantage reminds me slightly of the Gallardo from the way it handles, they both felt heavy and meaty.
Obviously the Gallardo massively faster, especially re traction on slippery roads.
The other aspects of the Gallardo I didn't like were cramped cockpit (not a safe place to be in a crash for anyone 6ft plus) and lousy turning circle.
In my dream garage I had the Gallardo Spyder pencilled in to partner my RS but now been replaced by Vantage Volante. (The 430 Spyder would stop me using ink).
Got the DB9 Volante at mo, what an elegant, understated beauty!