stuka

The biggest reason why I took a bath on the Turbo is because I have always been able to get lurid oversteers in my E36 M3 and E46 M3, and to spent the kind of $$$ I did, with more HP than either M3, only to be told by the computer that it knows better than me, and that I don't need to be going sideways, is a total let down.

If PSM can be turned off and can stay off, I won't have a problem with it. Until then, I will avoid any P car that has PSM in it.

stuka

Most BMWCCA instructors now tell their students, fast groups and all, to leave DSC on.

Many do this as a liability reason only, because they don't trust the students having any car control skills, and they don't need the fingers pointing their way when spectacular crashes happen.

And really, can you blame them? Many students after the crashes still don't know what happened at the drivers meeting.

If it can come back up on its own, it cannot be turned off.

With cars getting more powerful, and more and more drivers having never driven RWD cars without any types of electronics, I happen to think that car control classes should be a prereqisite before someone should be allowed to even sign up as a rookie, but that's just me.

MJones

Your Turbo was a 996 and PSM was very sensitive.
The envelope for activation with the 997 is MUCH wider than the 996.

When turned OFF it will remain off and control interventions by the
system will only be executed when heavy pressure is applied to the brake pedal. To do this, ABS control must be active at one front wheel at least, opperating in the background... After an event the system remains in the "off" setting.

True enough, PSM is always in the background and can not be fully, 100%deactivated.
ABD (automatic brake differential)is always active regardless of 'on' or 'off' setting.

Bob Rouleau

Stuka - PCA and BMW say PSM "on" to avoid liability. If you student crashes one might get blamed for turning PSM off.

Your 996TT had the older system which is indeed intrusive especially on sticky tires. The newer cars 9x7 have a PSM which is much easier to live with.

The way I see it, there are three kinds of drivers:

Operators - know nothing about driving techniques. PSM will be a real benefit to them.

Hot Shots - those who think they can drive but have no skills. PSM might be a liability.

Real Drivers - with skills might find PSM intrusive or at the least, an expensive gadget they do not need.

Since operators are the vast majority, I have no doubt that PSM will be mandatory.

Nordschleife

Bob

To your categories you may care to add Pilot

I recall driving a couple of laps with Walter Röhrl at the Nürburgring in a car he had not driven before. He chose to leave the stability management system ON. In truth, as with most pilots, it was a matter of supreme indifference to him whether the system was engaged or not. Of course he would turn the system off whzen setting a lap time for the book, otherwise its just something thats there, or not there.

R+C

roberga

jeff, thanks for getting back on track with the avatars :-)

Bob Rouleau

Nord - I would certainly include Walter in the "real driver" category. Obviously he finds PSM intrusive when he is going for a fast lap.

Jeff - I never categorized anyone as a "poseur" or a purist. I do not automatically categorize track drivers as "Real Drivers". As the CI of an active PCA region, I have seen too many "track drivers" who cannot handle a car and have no feel for what's going on under them. On the other hand, skilled drivers tend to track their cars more than most.

In the same vein, there are skilled drivers who do not track. I supect they are a smaller group if only because it is very hard (foolish in fact) to explore the limits of traction and balance anywhere but on a track unless you have a lot of snow and ice handy. Considering the number of Finns at the top level of racing and rallying, I figure there is a snow connection there. Finland has a total population which is about half that of New York City.

Best,

Flying Finn

5 Million people, 13 World Rally Championships, 3 F1 Championships, 3 RR World Championships, 3 Motocross Championships, 15 (or something) individual enduro championships, half of that team championships, Le Mans wins, ALMS win...
Currently there is 2 Finns in top level of F1, few in WRC, numerous in Enduro, few in GT series, one in RR.
Only country ever to have F1 & WRC Champion same year, twice in a row.

People often ask why Finns are so good in motorsport and I agree, snow connection must be one of the contributing factors.
Also the numerous gravel roads play a major role. Most of the Finnaish WRC drivers come from rural area.

And all this certainly applies to the asphalt, I know I have learned a lot from driving on snow, ice & gravel and use those skills on asphalt. There's basically two race tracks in Finland (both of them are not used for International racing) and summer is short!, yet we have plenty of good drivers in asphalt racing.

Flying Finn

God damn Jeff, take that hideous thing away!!!

TD in DC

x2

roberga

jeff..... no. I sent the message prior to the latest addition. Have you seen the movie? Sick in everyway :-)

Mark Dreyer

I can't imagine the how tough it must be for you to decide which of these cars to track. Some people truly have to make some difficult decisions in life. My hat's off to you!