Bob Rouleau

PSM has multiple components, traction, stability and yaw control. The latter is always on and independent of the PSM switch. On the 9x7 cars PSM is less intrusive than earlier models. On the Ferrari 430 stability mangement is not at all intrusive, you can get very sideways before it intervenes.

The safety fanatics have convinced the DOT that PSM should be mandatory on all cars. Let's hope Porsche does it right. The F430 is enjoyable in RACE mode and one can turn PSM off completely. PAG can do as well.

PogueMoHone

Stuka,

You shouldn't generalize and make statements that "PSM sucks". You undermine your own credibility that way.

PSM has evolved over the various model years, and the current version in the 997 is very unobtrusive. In fact the only way to trigger it is, to be beyond the laws of physics or have abrupt inputs.

As a former GT2 owner and current 997 S owner (never having triggered PSM) I can tell you the secret is being smooth, and then PSM doesn't matter.

You may find it interesting that in my F430 (race mode) at turn 7 at Sears point I can trigger the stability management program, but in my 997 (or GT2) it is business as usual, nothing changes and there is no interference.

I will go so far as to say that the only time the current version of PSM interferes is when the inputs are too abrupt..or the driver is so good that he can make his living on the track.

If you are the latter category, my hat is off too you.

If you haven't been to PDE, and seen what the Hurley Haywood's of the world can do, never triggering PSM, you just don't understand the design and limits of the system.

Your experience may vary, but I trust mine!

Nordschleife

it is extremely good training to learn to drive fast, on track, with PSM on. WHy? you may quite rightly ask.
Well, its all about 'smooth is fast'.
In a nutshell, if you are instucting from trackside, you can hear when the students are doing it properly, or hamfistedly. In the latter instance you hear the PSM system cutting in, its very audible. However, as they learn their lessons, the PSM intrudes less and less frequently. Once ave learned to drive fast with it on, then they can learn to cope without it, they are ready, asit were for advanced classes. Whilst they are unsubtle and slow to correct the car's position and behaviour, the PSM intrudes frequently, as they learn to cope with under and oversteer and to transition smoothly it intrudes must less frequently and finally the students learn that they can induce quite extreme attitudes without triggering the system, because they are driving smoothly.
I do find it an excellent aid to teaching fast driving.
R+C

mitch236

R+C, I agree that it is a teaching aid and any instructor in the US who tells his student to turn it off is not only putting both of them in danger but is exposing himself to legal recourse if something bad happens.

But for the advanced driver, PSM can detract from some maneuvers, slowing one down at critical moments.

I for one, wouldn't mind PSM on my track car so long as I can completely disable it.

Nordschleife

Mitch

I quite agree, i do think that a student who can drive well with PSM on will learn advanced manoevres more quickly and less traumatically when (s)he has learned to be smooth with the PSM on.

I know of a project that is aimed at retaining some of the PSM features for enduro racing, I look forward to trying the cars.

R+C

mooty

i agree, i foreced myself to do that in the past. it not that psm saves you, but it tells you that if you triggered it, you aren't smooth. once i stopped triggering it, took 2 years or so, i dont use it anymore on track. i only get it back on (when turned off) at two turns. i know why they come on there, as i loves sliding my car there and be offline just to "dance" with the car. by no means is that the fast way around. but that's different, if you are triggering it on po urpose to have some fun, then it means you should be able to drive it without triggering it as well.

TD in DC

Putting the debate about PSM aside, I think some of you are reading way too much into the Porsche letter.

The letter does NOT address whether you could install a PSM system that could be completely deactivated (i.e., it will not come back on automatically no matter what).

The letter ONLY addresses whether you have to have two separate indicators to indicate (1) a PSM malfunction and (2) a PSM manual deactivation or whether you can use one indicator for both, which is what Porsche advocates.

IF, and this is a crucial IF, PSM could be manual deactivated such that it would NEVER come back on no matter what until the driver so chooses, I personally would like it installed on every Porsche, provided that it does not have a material impact on overall vehicle weight. If it doesn't way more, then driver choice is a great thing.

In any event, my point is that you shouldn't read more into the letter than what it actually says.

mitch236

Todd, it is interesting that (as was mentioned above) Porsche could've made PSM with complete driver deactivation, why didn't they?

As I said, I don't care if they put it in every car so long as I can deactivate it. I am looking forward to TC however.

TD in DC

I agree with you 100%. I suspect that the reason for not allowing drivers fully to deactivate PSM has to do with all of the God forsaken attorneys in this country.

I wish that I, as a Porsche enthusiast, represented Porsche. I would advocate that drivers be permitted fully to deactivate PSM after confirming that they have read the NAV type disclaimers that most cars today have.

So, default would be PSM ON.

If the driver turns PSM off, then a disclamer would show up on the dash screen somewhere asking the driver to confirm that they are taking responsibility for their actions. If the driver confirms, then PSM is completely deactivated and Porsche will be safer in the event of a lawsuit. If the driver does not confirm, then PSM remains on despite the fact that the driver hit the off switch.

Very simple from a technological standpoint.

I can just see the language now . . .

Drive safely and obey all applicable traffic rules and laws.

The GT3 can bend, but not break, the laws of physics.

By deactivating PSM, you waive any and all rights to hold Porsche responsible for any subsequent damage to you or your automobile, and you agree to indemnify and defend Porsche for any damage to third parties or their property.

If you are on a public road, there is no reason for you to deactivate PSM, and Porsche strongly discourages you from doing so.

If you are on a track, please excercise extreme caution but do not embarass Porsche or yourself by driving your GT3 like a squid.

Have a nice day.

Flying Finn

Mitch, R+C,

On the other hand, I agree with your PSM views for student to learn to be smooth and car control in that manner but on the other IMO it can be a bad thing for learning car control.
Especially if it can not be completely turned off.

Now in a way, everyone should learn first with slower car but since often that's not the case, and student has a fast car (no equipped with PSM) which in a way makes lerning to handle the car in hairy situations even more hairy but that's just the way it is.

I've always been a big believer of learning to control the car in various different situations on different surfaces. Even when you learn to control overster, spinning etc. on very slippery surface as ice, those same butt feelings, physics apply you learn on ice, aplly also on asplhalt.

Now when you have a student who lives i.e. here in S. Florida where there's never snow (although I read the news, there were some snow flakes up in Orlando this morning!) and he (or she) has a car equipped with PSM, once he is a better driver, and no longer a student, he can control car very smooth & clean, yet he might have never really experience oversteer/understeer or even better, a spin.
Then when eventuelly (it will happen, sooner or later) he gets in to a situation where "butt" doesn't tell what's happening and PSM has done all it can do, result most likely will be a chrash.
And this would be even more of a problem is this student afterbecoming a "good" driver decides to get a race car (that doesn't have PSM), eventually gets more and more speed and comfortable in a car and starts to get closer and closer to the limits.
Then in a fast sweeper, rear starts to come slightly loose (which he doesn't recognize since it pretty much hasn't happened before) and that minor oversteer, that could've been easily corrected if there was experience, turns into a major chrash.

This is why I think PSM should be something that you can at least turn off completeley, not the way Porsche has it now and can be a bad thing for new driver's learning process.

mjb

This makes perfect sense, i.e. completely disable PSM w/ acknowledgement that the driver has disabled PSM. Looks like the language in the regulation would allow this as far as we can tell.
But Porsche decided against a "really off" approach to the current PSM. And since there was no regulation requiring this (or PSM for that matter) today, it seems to be a design philosophy at Porsche. Maybe GT cars of the future will have a fully off mode, but then again we were graced with a mandatory sunroof on the GT3.....

mitch236

To be completely honest, I don't care about the sunroof. Sure it detracts from the "pureness" of the GT-3 but I'm sure that almost every driver wouldn't be able to feel the difference on a track between having or not having one. Now if headroom is a factor, that I understand, but I know I won't even know I have it there when I'm on the track.

TC isn't a factor either since it can be completely disabled. In fact, I may actually be faster with it so I embrace it. PSM is another story since it would slow me down. That's why I got my 996 without it.

mjb

Whooa Mitch. Didn't mean to derail this thread to the sunroof debate. Just pointing out that what we (on these enthusiast forums) think makes sense does not always align with the sometimes mystifying decisions that Porsche makes. I think most wouldn't care if PSM was on every Porsche variant as long as it could be fully disabled. But it's not that way today so who knows what direction they will take.

arenared

Good points, Flying...

I think what the ESC regulations/implementations will get us are drivers that are generally safer, but at the same time drive like they are "invincible" and may not have an appreciation of the underlying physics of driving. Reminds me when I was a kid. My sister-in-law totaled the family car. Her response was, "I don't know what happened. The car just slid." I know what happened. She didn't know the car, and she didn't know the road conditions. Duh.

MetalSolid

Mandatory DOT PSM/ESP/DSC... No doubt the insurance companies lobbied for this; they want every idiot to drive and pay premiums but they don't want those same idiots making claims. Auto makers also want to sell 500bhp cars because that's what idiots want. Why doesn't each state just make passing the driving test harder than just showing up? Wouldn't this would make the roads safer, reduce congestion, lessen reliance on foreign oil, lower the death toll and save the ozone layer - the holy grail of solutions? Simple answer is yes, but... automakers, insurance companies and government would lose billions.