SCAM Alert - BAT and VIN WP0AC29997S792866
05-23-2023, 12:33 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
If you think about it, it’s quite literally a game. They figured out a way to get us to play with little to no liability and our reward is just the competition and interaction…brilliant.
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RAudi Driver (05-23-2023)
05-23-2023, 12:39 AM
#32
Rennlist Member
Sorry to say that @Wonderdan and @Spyerx have it right here. The only thing BaT may be remiss for is not over-explaining the technical, legal nature of its business model. Strictly an advertising platform. Zero assurance of contract creation or enforcement for buyer or seller as it relates to the sale of any car. The only contract either party has by virtue of using BaT is acceptance of their terms of use.
I think some measure of consumer “trust” and reliance on BaT as a mediator of sorts is fostered by how ubiquitous they’ve become, and the fact that they do enforce *some* standards of transparency (e.g., proof of ownership, policing comments, etc.). But the reality is pretty simple - they’re not a broker, agent, or escrow service, and their terms of use aren’t ambiguous on these points.
I know it’s an unpopular and nerdy lawyer opinion, but they don’t owe aggrieved buyers or sellers anything, and they’d be creating a potentially costly precedent by “doing the right thing” when sh*t like this happens (not to mention putting themselves in a position to be sued). Unfortunately, the OP really has no recourse against anyone here. Talks of what “should” be done are just arguments for principled behavior, but nothing requires that of anyone involved.
@JoeMX82 you definitely have my sympathy, but it’s not meaningful to say the seller refusing to allow you to pick it up violates any BaT rules or otherwise voids the deal. There is no deal until you exchange cash for car and title. You could’ve walked away after your first post-auction comms with seller and he’d be just as screwed as you are now.
You asked about an analogy to the result if the car burned up between now and you flying out there … well, same result - you owe nothing, because there is no contract. Even if one of you made a strained argument that you did have a binding contract at that point, either of you would be excused from any obligation due to impossibility of performance - the thing to be done under the contract can no longer be done.
Unsatisfying results for sure. There is a market for an auction website that addresses situations like this, but BaT ain’t that.
I think some measure of consumer “trust” and reliance on BaT as a mediator of sorts is fostered by how ubiquitous they’ve become, and the fact that they do enforce *some* standards of transparency (e.g., proof of ownership, policing comments, etc.). But the reality is pretty simple - they’re not a broker, agent, or escrow service, and their terms of use aren’t ambiguous on these points.
I know it’s an unpopular and nerdy lawyer opinion, but they don’t owe aggrieved buyers or sellers anything, and they’d be creating a potentially costly precedent by “doing the right thing” when sh*t like this happens (not to mention putting themselves in a position to be sued). Unfortunately, the OP really has no recourse against anyone here. Talks of what “should” be done are just arguments for principled behavior, but nothing requires that of anyone involved.
@JoeMX82 you definitely have my sympathy, but it’s not meaningful to say the seller refusing to allow you to pick it up violates any BaT rules or otherwise voids the deal. There is no deal until you exchange cash for car and title. You could’ve walked away after your first post-auction comms with seller and he’d be just as screwed as you are now.
You asked about an analogy to the result if the car burned up between now and you flying out there … well, same result - you owe nothing, because there is no contract. Even if one of you made a strained argument that you did have a binding contract at that point, either of you would be excused from any obligation due to impossibility of performance - the thing to be done under the contract can no longer be done.
Unsatisfying results for sure. There is a market for an auction website that addresses situations like this, but BaT ain’t that.
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05-23-2023, 12:48 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
https://pages.ebay.com/motors/buy/purchase-protection/
05-23-2023, 07:56 AM
#34
The overwhelming advantage of these sites is reach. I’ve sold one car that stayed local but two that went across the country. When I jumped on my GT3 last year on Cars and Bids, I knew I was taking a risk doing so without seeing it in person or getting a PPI, I priced it accordingly. So far so good.
05-23-2023, 09:53 AM
#35
Sorry to say that @Wonderdan and @Spyerx have it right here. The only thing BaT may be remiss for is not over-explaining the technical, legal nature of its business model. Strictly an advertising platform. Zero assurance of contract creation or enforcement for buyer or seller as it relates to the sale of any car. The only contract either party has by virtue of using BaT is acceptance of their terms of use.
I think some measure of consumer “trust” and reliance on BaT as a mediator of sorts is fostered by how ubiquitous they’ve become, and the fact that they do enforce *some* standards of transparency (e.g., proof of ownership, policing comments, etc.). But the reality is pretty simple - they’re not a broker, agent, or escrow service, and their terms of use aren’t ambiguous on these points.
I know it’s an unpopular and nerdy lawyer opinion, but they don’t owe aggrieved buyers or sellers anything, and they’d be creating a potentially costly precedent by “doing the right thing” when sh*t like this happens (not to mention putting themselves in a position to be sued). Unfortunately, the OP really has no recourse against anyone here. Talks of what “should” be done are just arguments for principled behavior, but nothing requires that of anyone involved.
@JoeMX82 you definitely have my sympathy, but it’s not meaningful to say the seller refusing to allow you to pick it up violates any BaT rules or otherwise voids the deal. There is no deal until you exchange cash for car and title. You could’ve walked away after your first post-auction comms with seller and he’d be just as screwed as you are now.
You asked about an analogy to the result if the car burned up between now and you flying out there … well, same result - you owe nothing, because there is no contract. Even if one of you made a strained argument that you did have a binding contract at that point, either of you would be excused from any obligation due to impossibility of performance - the thing to be done under the contract can no longer be done.
Unsatisfying results for sure. There is a market for an auction website that addresses situations like this, but BaT ain’t that.
I think some measure of consumer “trust” and reliance on BaT as a mediator of sorts is fostered by how ubiquitous they’ve become, and the fact that they do enforce *some* standards of transparency (e.g., proof of ownership, policing comments, etc.). But the reality is pretty simple - they’re not a broker, agent, or escrow service, and their terms of use aren’t ambiguous on these points.
I know it’s an unpopular and nerdy lawyer opinion, but they don’t owe aggrieved buyers or sellers anything, and they’d be creating a potentially costly precedent by “doing the right thing” when sh*t like this happens (not to mention putting themselves in a position to be sued). Unfortunately, the OP really has no recourse against anyone here. Talks of what “should” be done are just arguments for principled behavior, but nothing requires that of anyone involved.
@JoeMX82 you definitely have my sympathy, but it’s not meaningful to say the seller refusing to allow you to pick it up violates any BaT rules or otherwise voids the deal. There is no deal until you exchange cash for car and title. You could’ve walked away after your first post-auction comms with seller and he’d be just as screwed as you are now.
You asked about an analogy to the result if the car burned up between now and you flying out there … well, same result - you owe nothing, because there is no contract. Even if one of you made a strained argument that you did have a binding contract at that point, either of you would be excused from any obligation due to impossibility of performance - the thing to be done under the contract can no longer be done.
Unsatisfying results for sure. There is a market for an auction website that addresses situations like this, but BaT ain’t that.
That being said, I can assure you - if everything the OP is telling us is accurate - BaT will most certainly refund his $5k buy fee and ban the seller.
Last edited by pputkowski; 05-23-2023 at 09:54 AM.
05-23-2023, 10:24 AM
#36
This has nothing to do with Joe just sharing a general observation of BaT.
In my opinion, BaT buyers are not your typical "old school" Porsche crowd. The guys that spend months (years) obsessing over specific criteria (miles/options/colors) trying to find "the one". The guys that enjoy kicking tires, scheduling PPIs only to talk themselves out of buying the car because the results evince the car is indeed used and 15-years old. Guys that will threaten to bring an attorney into a car deal if it doesn't go the way they want it to. These guys are not (or at least should not be) buying cars on BaT.
BaT buyers are typically guys that want to buy something RIGHT NOW. BaT has become like Amazon Prime for collector/enthusiast cars. Think back to shopping for a 997 GT car pre-BAT. Your only options were dealer inventory, eBay/craigslist, the occasional forum listing or maybe a local car via word of mouth. How often were those cars coming available? Now, with BaT, we are seeing a new one pop up almost weekly - take your pick. A process that would have traditionally taken months (locate/transact) now takes 7-days. With that convenience comes a compromise. You have to know what you are looking for and see through the listings. You need to approach all BaT listings with a certain amount of "common sense". Look beyond the shiny pictures and get in touch with the seller ASAP. "Buy the seller, not the car." IF you are interested in a car and you require a PPI, you need to figure out how to facilitate that ASAP before placing a bid/commitment to purchase. If a seller is unreasonable/unwilling to accommodate your requirements, just move on. That's not so easy for everyone when the car is seemingly right at your fingertips. So a lot of people make excuses, continue to bid, then place blame after the fact for one reason or another.
It goes without saying bidding/buying a car sight-unseen through an online platform has inherent risks. When you participate in the platform, you are accepting a certain level of accountability/acknowledgement of those risks and should do everything in your power (due diligence) to mitigate them. Again, if you're not comfortable - don't bid!
From experience I can tell you the staff at BaT will go above and beyond to make things right post-auction. If a vehicle is knowingly misrepresented, BaT will absolutely require the seller to take action to fix the situation. The seller can refuse, and in doing so will likely be banned from the platform. This is simply not an option for many of the higher-volume sellers on the platform. Most sellers understand that it pays to be over-transparent. That being said, these are used cars. BaT will not support an unreasonable buyer. Things happen and it is unrealistic to expect every seller to know every detail/quirk/etc on every car they sell. That being said, if something falls through the cracks, BaT will mediate and fully attempt to make things right. They will go as far as refunding a portion or all of the buy fee if they deem it necessary. IMO they have done a great job of maintaining a certain level of integrity on the platform.
Just my opinion as a casual observer.
In my opinion, BaT buyers are not your typical "old school" Porsche crowd. The guys that spend months (years) obsessing over specific criteria (miles/options/colors) trying to find "the one". The guys that enjoy kicking tires, scheduling PPIs only to talk themselves out of buying the car because the results evince the car is indeed used and 15-years old. Guys that will threaten to bring an attorney into a car deal if it doesn't go the way they want it to. These guys are not (or at least should not be) buying cars on BaT.
BaT buyers are typically guys that want to buy something RIGHT NOW. BaT has become like Amazon Prime for collector/enthusiast cars. Think back to shopping for a 997 GT car pre-BAT. Your only options were dealer inventory, eBay/craigslist, the occasional forum listing or maybe a local car via word of mouth. How often were those cars coming available? Now, with BaT, we are seeing a new one pop up almost weekly - take your pick. A process that would have traditionally taken months (locate/transact) now takes 7-days. With that convenience comes a compromise. You have to know what you are looking for and see through the listings. You need to approach all BaT listings with a certain amount of "common sense". Look beyond the shiny pictures and get in touch with the seller ASAP. "Buy the seller, not the car." IF you are interested in a car and you require a PPI, you need to figure out how to facilitate that ASAP before placing a bid/commitment to purchase. If a seller is unreasonable/unwilling to accommodate your requirements, just move on. That's not so easy for everyone when the car is seemingly right at your fingertips. So a lot of people make excuses, continue to bid, then place blame after the fact for one reason or another.
It goes without saying bidding/buying a car sight-unseen through an online platform has inherent risks. When you participate in the platform, you are accepting a certain level of accountability/acknowledgement of those risks and should do everything in your power (due diligence) to mitigate them. Again, if you're not comfortable - don't bid!
From experience I can tell you the staff at BaT will go above and beyond to make things right post-auction. If a vehicle is knowingly misrepresented, BaT will absolutely require the seller to take action to fix the situation. The seller can refuse, and in doing so will likely be banned from the platform. This is simply not an option for many of the higher-volume sellers on the platform. Most sellers understand that it pays to be over-transparent. That being said, these are used cars. BaT will not support an unreasonable buyer. Things happen and it is unrealistic to expect every seller to know every detail/quirk/etc on every car they sell. That being said, if something falls through the cracks, BaT will mediate and fully attempt to make things right. They will go as far as refunding a portion or all of the buy fee if they deem it necessary. IMO they have done a great job of maintaining a certain level of integrity on the platform.
Just my opinion as a casual observer.
Last edited by pputkowski; 05-23-2023 at 10:31 AM.
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Breakthru (05-23-2023),
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Steve_D (05-23-2023),
and 1 others liked this post.
05-23-2023, 11:58 AM
#37
Rennlist Member
Man, what a thread!
I do think Joe is in the right, he tried to follow through with the deal, regardless of PPI, but seller changed the agreement (pick up can in person, etc). In that case, he should 100% get his deposit back. Or at least a credit towards a future auction, which sucks, but at least you'd sort of get something back.
I do think Joe is in the right, he tried to follow through with the deal, regardless of PPI, but seller changed the agreement (pick up can in person, etc). In that case, he should 100% get his deposit back. Or at least a credit towards a future auction, which sucks, but at least you'd sort of get something back.
05-23-2023, 01:58 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
1234567890-
Last edited by RAudi Driver; 05-23-2023 at 04:14 PM.
05-23-2023, 02:01 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
1234567890
Last edited by RAudi Driver; 05-23-2023 at 04:13 PM.
05-23-2023, 02:03 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
That’s not true. When I sold my 996 x50 on BaT, there were 2 or 3 people who came over to my house to see it.
The overwhelming advantage of these sites is reach. I’ve sold one car that stayed local but two that went across the country. When I jumped on my GT3 last year on Cars and Bids, I knew I was taking a risk doing so without seeing it in person or getting a PPI, I priced it accordingly. So far so good.
The overwhelming advantage of these sites is reach. I’ve sold one car that stayed local but two that went across the country. When I jumped on my GT3 last year on Cars and Bids, I knew I was taking a risk doing so without seeing it in person or getting a PPI, I priced it accordingly. So far so good.
Nailed it regarding exactly what BaT is and why they will never implement features (required PPI’s) for which they could be held accountable/liable.
That being said, I can assure you - if everything the OP is telling us is accurate - BaT will most certainly refund his $5k buy fee and ban the seller.
That being said, I can assure you - if everything the OP is telling us is accurate - BaT will most certainly refund his $5k buy fee and ban the seller.
This has nothing to do with Joe just sharing a general observation of BaT.
In my opinion, BaT buyers are not your typical "old school" Porsche crowd. The guys that spend months (years) obsessing over specific criteria (miles/options/colors) trying to find "the one". The guys that enjoy kicking tires, scheduling PPIs only to talk themselves out of buying the car because the results evince the car is indeed used and 15-years old. Guys that will threaten to bring an attorney into a car deal if it doesn't go the way they want it to. These guys are not (or at least should not be) buying cars on BaT.
BaT buyers are typically guys that want to buy something RIGHT NOW. BaT has become like Amazon Prime for collector/enthusiast cars. Think back to shopping for a 997 GT car pre-BAT. Your only options were dealer inventory, eBay/craigslist, the occasional forum listing or maybe a local car via word of mouth. How often were those cars coming available? Now, with BaT, we are seeing a new one pop up almost weekly - take your pick. A process that would have traditionally taken months (locate/transact) now takes 7-days. With that convenience comes a compromise. You have to know what you are looking for and see through the listings. You need to approach all BaT listings with a certain amount of "common sense". Look beyond the shiny pictures and get in touch with the seller ASAP. "Buy the seller, not the car." IF you are interested in a car and you require a PPI, you need to figure out how to facilitate that ASAP before placing a bid/commitment to purchase. If a seller is unreasonable/unwilling to accommodate your requirements, just move on. That's not so easy for everyone when the car is seemingly right at your fingertips. So a lot of people make excuses, continue to bid, then place blame after the fact for one reason or another.
It goes without saying bidding/buying a car sight-unseen through an online platform has inherent risks. When you participate in the platform, you are accepting a certain level of accountability/acknowledgement of those risks and should do everything in your power (due diligence) to mitigate them. Again, if you're not comfortable - don't bid!
From experience I can tell you the staff at BaT will go above and beyond to make things right post-auction. If a vehicle is knowingly misrepresented, BaT will absolutely require the seller to take action to fix the situation. The seller can refuse, and in doing so will likely be banned from the platform. This is simply not an option for many of the higher-volume sellers on the platform. Most sellers understand that it pays to be over-transparent. That being said, these are used cars. BaT will not support an unreasonable buyer. Things happen and it is unrealistic to expect every seller to know every detail/quirk/etc on every car they sell. That being said, if something falls through the cracks, BaT will mediate and fully attempt to make things right. They will go as far as refunding a portion or all of the buy fee if they deem it necessary. IMO they have done a great job of maintaining a certain level of integrity on the platform.
Just my opinion as a casual observer.
In my opinion, BaT buyers are not your typical "old school" Porsche crowd. The guys that spend months (years) obsessing over specific criteria (miles/options/colors) trying to find "the one". The guys that enjoy kicking tires, scheduling PPIs only to talk themselves out of buying the car because the results evince the car is indeed used and 15-years old. Guys that will threaten to bring an attorney into a car deal if it doesn't go the way they want it to. These guys are not (or at least should not be) buying cars on BaT.
BaT buyers are typically guys that want to buy something RIGHT NOW. BaT has become like Amazon Prime for collector/enthusiast cars. Think back to shopping for a 997 GT car pre-BAT. Your only options were dealer inventory, eBay/craigslist, the occasional forum listing or maybe a local car via word of mouth. How often were those cars coming available? Now, with BaT, we are seeing a new one pop up almost weekly - take your pick. A process that would have traditionally taken months (locate/transact) now takes 7-days. With that convenience comes a compromise. You have to know what you are looking for and see through the listings. You need to approach all BaT listings with a certain amount of "common sense". Look beyond the shiny pictures and get in touch with the seller ASAP. "Buy the seller, not the car." IF you are interested in a car and you require a PPI, you need to figure out how to facilitate that ASAP before placing a bid/commitment to purchase. If a seller is unreasonable/unwilling to accommodate your requirements, just move on. That's not so easy for everyone when the car is seemingly right at your fingertips. So a lot of people make excuses, continue to bid, then place blame after the fact for one reason or another.
It goes without saying bidding/buying a car sight-unseen through an online platform has inherent risks. When you participate in the platform, you are accepting a certain level of accountability/acknowledgement of those risks and should do everything in your power (due diligence) to mitigate them. Again, if you're not comfortable - don't bid!
From experience I can tell you the staff at BaT will go above and beyond to make things right post-auction. If a vehicle is knowingly misrepresented, BaT will absolutely require the seller to take action to fix the situation. The seller can refuse, and in doing so will likely be banned from the platform. This is simply not an option for many of the higher-volume sellers on the platform. Most sellers understand that it pays to be over-transparent. That being said, these are used cars. BaT will not support an unreasonable buyer. Things happen and it is unrealistic to expect every seller to know every detail/quirk/etc on every car they sell. That being said, if something falls through the cracks, BaT will mediate and fully attempt to make things right. They will go as far as refunding a portion or all of the buy fee if they deem it necessary. IMO they have done a great job of maintaining a certain level of integrity on the platform.
Just my opinion as a casual observer.
Last edited by RAudi Driver; 05-23-2023 at 08:32 PM.
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pputkowski (05-23-2023)
05-23-2023, 02:04 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
1234567890-
Last edited by RAudi Driver; 05-23-2023 at 04:13 PM.
05-23-2023, 03:42 PM
#42
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Purchased a BMW i8 with my mother off of BAT, got a great deal and met a really cool seller. We flew in for the paperwork, then had it shipped home. It really is all about the seller in these situations, they can make or break the experience. Like OP had said, no need to play games after the completion of an auction if you have nothing to hide... better to walk away from the deal and contact Bring a Trailer directly about any issues, if your case is legit, they will refund the bidders fee and remove the seller from the platform.
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Last edited by Highline-Autos.com; 05-24-2023 at 04:15 PM.
05-23-2023, 07:57 PM
#43
I sent BAT screenshots of all my communications with the seller and they then followed up with the seller to get his side of the story. I just received an email that they are refunding in full my buyers fee and will be in further conversations with the seller.
I appreciate the support and comments from all here and I’m appreciative that BAT stepped in regardless of whether or not they “had to”.
Bottom line is I’m a serious buyer that has been on the hunt for some time, black on black is the must have for me. I feel I ran into a very dishonest seller that was frustrated with the “raw deal” he feels he got on this car and was trying to pass that raw deal along under the disguise of an honest retired Porsche mechanic.
I’ll be happy to pay more for a better seller and I hope the community keeps an eye out for this car / seller to protect others.
I appreciate the support and comments from all here and I’m appreciative that BAT stepped in regardless of whether or not they “had to”.
Bottom line is I’m a serious buyer that has been on the hunt for some time, black on black is the must have for me. I feel I ran into a very dishonest seller that was frustrated with the “raw deal” he feels he got on this car and was trying to pass that raw deal along under the disguise of an honest retired Porsche mechanic.
I’ll be happy to pay more for a better seller and I hope the community keeps an eye out for this car / seller to protect others.
Last edited by JoeMX82; 05-23-2023 at 08:13 PM.
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05-23-2023, 08:33 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
F YEA! You did it! Great news.
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JoeMX82 (05-23-2023)
05-23-2023, 09:23 PM
#45
Burning Brakes
Great to hear. Inasmuch as “the hunt” is part of the fun it sounds like you haven’t yet had the benefit of a fun hunt but I hope things get better for you going forward.
You’ve already memorialized the VIN; May I suggest that you also post the handle of the seller (even if they get banned from BAT) for future discoverability?
You’ve already memorialized the VIN; May I suggest that you also post the handle of the seller (even if they get banned from BAT) for future discoverability?