GT3 Companion - 993 or GT4 ?
11-30-2022, 10:29 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
@Belinko Never thought I’d play FMK with my cars, but I forever will now. Clearly marrying the 3. And the 4 is definitely the easy, lusty choice. Will have to wait and see on the 993 if I go that route . . .
Agree on your tire recs. NT01s are what I ran on everything before succumbing to the Purple Crack addiction. Any idea what sizes are ideal on the OE wheels ?
I care less and less about lap times these days. I want to be faster every time out, but that’s really just an “internal” benchmark for my skill set. Zero desire for a PDK car at this point, which is one reason I know I’m going to immediately love the 3 on track. I want the work and the reward when I get it right. Lots to learn too, as I’ve never tracked a 911 more than a few sessions here and there.
Agree on your tire recs. NT01s are what I ran on everything before succumbing to the Purple Crack addiction. Any idea what sizes are ideal on the OE wheels ?
I care less and less about lap times these days. I want to be faster every time out, but that’s really just an “internal” benchmark for my skill set. Zero desire for a PDK car at this point, which is one reason I know I’m going to immediately love the 3 on track. I want the work and the reward when I get it right. Lots to learn too, as I’ve never tracked a 911 more than a few sessions here and there.
12-01-2022, 12:12 AM
#32
We are on the same page buddy. 
I'm running an OEM sizing on 7.1, which is 235/35/19 Front and 305/30/19 Rear, nothing crazy. I'd start from OEM sizing and change if desired, but usually changes don't equate to "better" handling characteristics.
I'm running an OEM sizing on 7.1, which is 235/35/19 Front and 305/30/19 Rear, nothing crazy. I'd start from OEM sizing and change if desired, but usually changes don't equate to "better" handling characteristics.
12-01-2022, 02:01 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
Next to my EVO VIII, the most track time I did was in my 997.2 GT3. I wish I had never sold that car. It was perfect (for me).
I bought a 981 GT4 thinking it was the car I'd always hoped Porsche would make. Lack of space dictated one GT car had to go and it was the 997. Mistake. As much as i loved tracking the GT4, it never captured my soul like the 997 did. I think once you track yours, you may feel similarly. Definitely suggest putting Cup 2's on it before as they just feel right on the car.
I scratched the air cooled itch with a long hood hot rod. It was fun but was tempermental and high maintenance. A 993 is likely a bit more reliable but I've driven them and they don't feel as sharp or connected unless heavily modded. I agree with the prior poster that suggested a 964 hot rod instead. Air cooled ultimately isn't for me. 997GT is the pinnacle and I hope to always have one.
As a good friend said, sometimes you have to experience a car to rule it out. You can always replace a 981 GT4 if you decide to sell yours. Just don't ever sell the 997. You'll regret it.
I bought a 981 GT4 thinking it was the car I'd always hoped Porsche would make. Lack of space dictated one GT car had to go and it was the 997. Mistake. As much as i loved tracking the GT4, it never captured my soul like the 997 did. I think once you track yours, you may feel similarly. Definitely suggest putting Cup 2's on it before as they just feel right on the car.
I scratched the air cooled itch with a long hood hot rod. It was fun but was tempermental and high maintenance. A 993 is likely a bit more reliable but I've driven them and they don't feel as sharp or connected unless heavily modded. I agree with the prior poster that suggested a 964 hot rod instead. Air cooled ultimately isn't for me. 997GT is the pinnacle and I hope to always have one.
As a good friend said, sometimes you have to experience a car to rule it out. You can always replace a 981 GT4 if you decide to sell yours. Just don't ever sell the 997. You'll regret it.
12-01-2022, 10:55 AM
#34
You really should drive the 993. In my personal opinion, they are pretty boring bone stock. Especially when compared to a gt3 (I have never driven a gt4). Relatively low power, long gears and shifter action, suspension is not very crisp.
I just sold a heavily modified 993 and it was awesome. RS uprights, solid or adjustable suspension bits/bobs, pss10 coilovers, seats, rollbar, RS shifter + golden rod, RS cams, a chip, full exhaust, probably close to 100 lbs pulled out of it...etc. It was very fun to drive at the track, I enjoyed it on the street but my fiancé never wanted to be inside of it. If you don't care that it is slow, go for it but I would certainly recommend the suspension and shifter work. If I were after a pure street car, I would probably go for a 3.2 targa. My dad has an '86 targa and I really like driving it in pure stock form.
I personally would want some more variety than two probably similarly matched gt cars. An old aircooled car would fit the bill nicely, imo.
I just sold a heavily modified 993 and it was awesome. RS uprights, solid or adjustable suspension bits/bobs, pss10 coilovers, seats, rollbar, RS shifter + golden rod, RS cams, a chip, full exhaust, probably close to 100 lbs pulled out of it...etc. It was very fun to drive at the track, I enjoyed it on the street but my fiancé never wanted to be inside of it. If you don't care that it is slow, go for it but I would certainly recommend the suspension and shifter work. If I were after a pure street car, I would probably go for a 3.2 targa. My dad has an '86 targa and I really like driving it in pure stock form.
I personally would want some more variety than two probably similarly matched gt cars. An old aircooled car would fit the bill nicely, imo.
12-01-2022, 12:02 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
12-01-2022, 01:35 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Man, that is a tough dilemma. And I know where you are coming from! Mezger gt3's (and especially the 7.2) are just so special. Don't sell it (unless you are replacing with another mezger gt3)...you would regret it (been there done that, three times...and have finally learned my lesson). And contrary to some, I think they are great street cars too (again, especially the 7.2 with its additional torque). They are not so fast that they are impossible to really enjoy on the street, but so engaging and charismatic, even at lower speeds. But therein lies the dilemma. When I have a car I love to drive on the street, particularly one that is high-value, no stories, and reasonably clean, its hard for me to "really" track that car. At least in Arizona, tracking is really hard on the cosmetics (rock chip central, fender and wheel-well sand-blasting, etc...). For that reason I just never warmed up to tracking my "nice" mezger gt3's. I was too paranoid, too conservative to progress, and too worried about tearing the car up or going off track and spending the next two weeks removing gravel from every undercarriage crevice, or heaven for bid suffering an incident that would be big money to fix and forever stigmatize the car if I ever needed to sell. And yes, once you install fixed buckets, harnesses, and a cage, the car becomes that much less street-able.
But I also love and really enjoyed my aircooled car for the very different experience it offered. But man was it slow, and boy did I try to make it faster (3.2 swapped 81 911 sc with full bolt ons, lots of fiberglass panels, full exhaust, chip, no ac or heat, 15" wheels, etc...). After living with that car for two years, which I really enjoyed, I feel that the aircooled sweet spot is a 930 (lightly or heavily modded) or a 964 (lightly modded with the well-known mods). I like 993's but they are almost too modern for me to get the whole "vintage" experience, if that makes sense. And if you want a really, really potent aircooled experience that won't cause embarrassment every time a Camry wants to race you, you can make insane power on a 930 for less than 25k! I will also have a longhood one day, but not until my stable is bigger and I can scratch a few other itches that I have prioritized over the longhood experience).
So what to do? I don't know man. If I wanted I really fun street car that I could enjoy tracking, but also wanted a vintage experience stablemate, and all of my current cars went up in a fire tomorrow, I think I'd find a clean but high mileage/tired engine 997.1/996 gt3 and send it to sharkwerks for a 3.9, and add a 930 or 964. That's kind of what I did with my 996. Found a storied non-salvaged car and made it into a track weapon that retains its street manners. It wasn't cheap, but like you I love diy (and I have a lift), and by buying a cheaper car I was able to spread out the big ticket items over time when I was ready. The end result is a car I will never, ever, ever (ever) sell that absolutely rips, that is completely streetable, that I know inside and out, and is super fun to drive with excellent manners, all for significantly less than a really clean 997.2 gt3.
But I also love and really enjoyed my aircooled car for the very different experience it offered. But man was it slow, and boy did I try to make it faster (3.2 swapped 81 911 sc with full bolt ons, lots of fiberglass panels, full exhaust, chip, no ac or heat, 15" wheels, etc...). After living with that car for two years, which I really enjoyed, I feel that the aircooled sweet spot is a 930 (lightly or heavily modded) or a 964 (lightly modded with the well-known mods). I like 993's but they are almost too modern for me to get the whole "vintage" experience, if that makes sense. And if you want a really, really potent aircooled experience that won't cause embarrassment every time a Camry wants to race you, you can make insane power on a 930 for less than 25k! I will also have a longhood one day, but not until my stable is bigger and I can scratch a few other itches that I have prioritized over the longhood experience).
So what to do? I don't know man. If I wanted I really fun street car that I could enjoy tracking, but also wanted a vintage experience stablemate, and all of my current cars went up in a fire tomorrow, I think I'd find a clean but high mileage/tired engine 997.1/996 gt3 and send it to sharkwerks for a 3.9, and add a 930 or 964. That's kind of what I did with my 996. Found a storied non-salvaged car and made it into a track weapon that retains its street manners. It wasn't cheap, but like you I love diy (and I have a lift), and by buying a cheaper car I was able to spread out the big ticket items over time when I was ready. The end result is a car I will never, ever, ever (ever) sell that absolutely rips, that is completely streetable, that I know inside and out, and is super fun to drive with excellent manners, all for significantly less than a really clean 997.2 gt3.
The following 3 users liked this post by ScottArizona:
12-01-2022, 02:24 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
@ScottArizona Man, your first paragraph sums it up nicely. I won't let the 7.2 go regardless of the direction I take on this, but I am at a point where I've settled into "serious" tracking with the 4, and if I land with just the 7.2 for street and track, it will necessarily be a compromise. That said, I manage to keep the 4 absurdly clean even as a dedicated track car. My tracks are all "gentle" on cosmetics, and the 4 is literally blemish free and full PPF'd. I also find days-long detailing projects massively therapeutic, so no worries about beating up the 7.2 aesthetically (aside from the inherent risk of track incidents). But you're right that I'll sacrifice some street-worthiness with it if I go too aggressive on track mods, so I'd need to be happy with a street-track setup.
I've also strongly considered the path of a 7.1 or 2 with miles and track mods, but I love and know my 7.2, and would enjoy the mild transformation to street / track, so no reason to hunt a replacement if that's the route I go.
@ChrisF Fair point that I can always jump back into a 981 if I want. Much harder proposition on our GT3s these days. But I've pretty squarely decided that car isn't going anywhere. Just a matter of what to do with the 4 and its potential replacement. And I agree with you and others on general impressions of the 4. It's a wonderful, capable car, but it is much closer to a 991 than a 997 (perhaps obviously). It's not the raw, emotion-evoking car that the 997s are. That's probably why I'm even considering letting it go in the first place . . .
Another common theme emerging is that a stock 993 or 964 might not satisfy, and I know that's probably true. I didn't mention it, but if I went that route, I would for sure mod that car as @lcrain and others have suggested. An RS tribute 993 is actually what I have in mind. But a lot of solid points here and from others who've PM'd reminding me of the realities of owning a vintage Porsche. My 930 was that car. Flew to the Florida keys with my ex to buy that car with no known history outside the seller's 5 year ownership. Drove it all the way back to TN in the hot-*** August summer, and in the process, had literally everything fail or almost fail. Sunroof cables snapped in open position (a real treat in the rain), headlights only worked while physically holding on (iPhone charging cable fashioned into janky fix), DME Relay intermittently cutting out at 90 mph, super temperamental 915 slush box, AC operative about 10% of the time, with the remaining 90% spent sweating down the interstate, a max of 3-5 cylinders firing depending on the mercy of the gods, and of course, lots of metal bits discovered on first oil change. It wasn't until I'd rebuilt / replaced absolutely everything on that car that it was passably reliable. And I loved that car, but eventually relegated it to nice weather weekend use. No fun at all when cold or hot outside.
So, yeah. Lots to consider. 964 hotrod is actually also on the list with 993, but I worry that might be too near my 930 experience. Either way, definitely going to track the 7.2 before I do anything. Holding out for good weather next weekend. Not interested in a wet first track outing in that car.
I've also strongly considered the path of a 7.1 or 2 with miles and track mods, but I love and know my 7.2, and would enjoy the mild transformation to street / track, so no reason to hunt a replacement if that's the route I go.
@ChrisF Fair point that I can always jump back into a 981 if I want. Much harder proposition on our GT3s these days. But I've pretty squarely decided that car isn't going anywhere. Just a matter of what to do with the 4 and its potential replacement. And I agree with you and others on general impressions of the 4. It's a wonderful, capable car, but it is much closer to a 991 than a 997 (perhaps obviously). It's not the raw, emotion-evoking car that the 997s are. That's probably why I'm even considering letting it go in the first place . . .
Another common theme emerging is that a stock 993 or 964 might not satisfy, and I know that's probably true. I didn't mention it, but if I went that route, I would for sure mod that car as @lcrain and others have suggested. An RS tribute 993 is actually what I have in mind. But a lot of solid points here and from others who've PM'd reminding me of the realities of owning a vintage Porsche. My 930 was that car. Flew to the Florida keys with my ex to buy that car with no known history outside the seller's 5 year ownership. Drove it all the way back to TN in the hot-*** August summer, and in the process, had literally everything fail or almost fail. Sunroof cables snapped in open position (a real treat in the rain), headlights only worked while physically holding on (iPhone charging cable fashioned into janky fix), DME Relay intermittently cutting out at 90 mph, super temperamental 915 slush box, AC operative about 10% of the time, with the remaining 90% spent sweating down the interstate, a max of 3-5 cylinders firing depending on the mercy of the gods, and of course, lots of metal bits discovered on first oil change. It wasn't until I'd rebuilt / replaced absolutely everything on that car that it was passably reliable. And I loved that car, but eventually relegated it to nice weather weekend use. No fun at all when cold or hot outside.
So, yeah. Lots to consider. 964 hotrod is actually also on the list with 993, but I worry that might be too near my 930 experience. Either way, definitely going to track the 7.2 before I do anything. Holding out for good weather next weekend. Not interested in a wet first track outing in that car.
Last edited by jreifler; 12-01-2022 at 02:25 PM.
12-01-2022, 09:57 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
12-02-2022, 01:18 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
@jreifler I totally missed that you already did the 930 thing LOL! Sorry it wasn't a great experience. I'm still going to have to scratch that itch, mostly because I already know my wife will hate it! My experience with my sc was similar. It took a year for me to warm up to the car because that is about how long it took to resolve all the little issues that collectively stripped the fun out of the experience of driving it (same headlight issue, a horn issue that resulted in it going off over bumps, super squeaky bushings, notchy second gear, and the list went on). But once I got there I really loved taking it out and it was super reliable. Then I bought the scud and needed to make some space so away it went...which was a poor decision in retrospect.
12-02-2022, 01:53 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
@jreifler I totally missed that you already did the 930 thing LOL! Sorry it wasn't a great experience. I'm still going to have to scratch that itch, mostly because I already know my wife will hate it! My experience with my sc was similar. It took a year for me to warm up to the car because that is about how long it took to resolve all the little issues that collectively stripped the fun out of the experience of driving it (same headlight issue, a horn issue that resulted in it going off over bumps, super squeaky bushings, notchy second gear, and the list went on). But once I got there I really loved taking it out and it was super reliable. Then I bought the scud and needed to make some space so away it went...which was a poor decision in retrospect.
The following 5 users liked this post by jreifler:
Elliotw44 (12-02-2022),
lbwsandiego (12-09-2022),
ljmartyre (12-05-2022),
luv2race (12-05-2022),
smceo (12-09-2022)
12-02-2022, 02:31 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
@ScottArizona not to deviate too far off topic here but how is that Scud holding up? I saw it on BAT when you bought it and i thought it was a decent buy at that price even with the mileage.
12-02-2022, 03:02 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
@ScottArizona not to deviate too far off topic here but how is that Scud holding up? I saw it on BAT when you bought it and i thought it was a decent buy at that price even with the mileage.
Sorry for the thread derailment (I'm just glad the OP isn't going to sell his gt3!).
The following 6 users liked this post by ScottArizona:
Joe Cho (12-02-2022),
jreifler (12-02-2022),
lawrence1 (12-02-2022),
lbwsandiego (12-09-2022),
luv2race (12-05-2022),
and 1 others liked this post.
12-02-2022, 04:25 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
love it! thanks for the info!