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Old 01-11-2018, 07:54 PM
  #31  
isv
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How much of a difference is there from the Tractive RT to RTx? have to admit I've gotten used to seeing top level dampers with remote reservoirs so not seeing them on the RT dampers is a bit of a surprise.
Old 01-11-2018, 08:36 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by isv
How much of a difference is there from the Tractive RT to RTx? have to admit I've gotten used to seeing top level dampers with remote reservoirs so not seeing them on the RT dampers is a bit of a surprise.
Good question! It depends on the application, to be more specific is the damper length-to-stroke length ratio. The Tractive DDA electronic valve(it makes the magic happen) takes up approximately 30mm inside a damper. In certain applications a damper can only be so long in order to fit but it must have a certain amount of stroke + factoring in the internal displacement of the DDA valve, when this ratio gets to a critical point a remote canister is required to house the piston to separates the oil and nitrogen.

Other reasons for remote canisters are in the past when the oils wasn't as good as they are today so having more oil capacity was always better. With better technology in oils today this is no longer always true. Fact: 997 GT3 Cup and 991 Cup factory race cars do not have remote canister shocks. Another factor is run time. The Cup cars were originally intended for sprint races with race length being about one hour. If a Cup car were to be converted to run endurance races longer than an hour then having the extra capacity of oil and a remote canister in a temperature cool location will makes the performance more stable throughout extended race time. Some Tractive damper sets are not really classified as RT or RTX, examples are Porsche 996 and Cup, the rear has to short enough to fit so a remote canister is naturally required and it is not an option(to which the RTX was meant be an offered option). Another reason for remote canisters is on a conventional all-mechanical monotube damper in order to have compression adjustment(hi-speed or low-speed) there needs to be a manifold to house the metering valve/dial, preferably the dial(s) are at an accessible location, so the manifold is conveniently located on the canister. For 2-way, 3-way, 4-way mechanical monotube dampers this is a requirement by design. Having electronically controlled damping changed the game on that.

To answer you original question, there's no appreciable difference in half hour track events between the RT and RTX unless there isn't an ideal damper length-to-stroke ratio like on the rear of 996 and Cup. Another example, Tractive dampers for the Dodge Viper ACR is right on boarderline of ideal ratio so the RTX version do work better for extreme track use. For those who want to buy the best to have the best then RTX it is.


Originally Posted by isv
have to admit I've gotten used to seeing top level dampers with remote reservoirs so not seeing them on the RT dampers is a bit of a surprise.
Top level to us is more than what is visible externally. Top race teams look for internal operating clearances(piston-to-bore clearance) during operating conditions, low stiction, and near zero hysteresis. We spend a lot of time dyno'ing dampers before they go on any development car, we get very deep in it and we live and love it. Tractive dampers run very precise clearance after initial wear-in is 0.01mm and stays like this for over 10 million stroke cycles in a 400F degree cell, that was an OEM criteria. Tighter clearance extends service interval. Even down to the seals, not standard rubber seals, F1 low friction seals. All in the details of the internal. Once I asked them to make the external color brighter to make the damper look more appealing, they said NO!!! Their black coating is special and tested to high pressure salt water spray for 200 hours in a humidity test cell. I stopped asking after that. The coating is another OEM criteria we end users benefit from.

Last edited by Tom@TPC Racing; 01-12-2018 at 05:43 PM. Reason: cleaned up the grammar for better reading
Old 01-11-2018, 11:12 PM
  #33  
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Just spent an hour on YouTube perusing all things Tractive and DSC. Pretty compelling stuff. Didn't know they worked with Touratec. You can definitely see that they are a little low on marketing and high on engineering! I came away with a greater appreciation of the hardware quality. The last time I heard spool valves it was in regard to F1 tech. Good stuff, pretty sure nobody is doing things like this but them. Tom, you acquitted yourself pretty well on camera .
Old 01-12-2018, 10:09 AM
  #34  
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Tom-TPC, thanks for that very comprehensive reply. Good to know, definitely under consideration later in the year when I get round to fitting the various bits and bobs I have planned (still need to fit the side pipes I bought from you guys last year! )
Old 01-12-2018, 11:02 AM
  #35  
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To the OPs question on longevity of the dampers, we are a bunch from another thread on front axle lift, that discovered that a seal in the dampers leak hydraulic fluid into the lift system causing the lift of the axle not to work properly.
This happend on mine from aprox 16k miles. Having close to doubled that now, I do not feel any change in the dampers, but who know how that leak can show in other situations.
Quite a few has the fault (LIFT not showing, and car won't drop down by the button) that could be due the this, so with taking into account for evaluating the state of the suspension.
Old 01-12-2018, 12:14 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by isv
Tom-TPC, thanks for that very comprehensive reply.
My pleasure to provide info.

Originally Posted by isv
still need to fit the side pipes I bought from you guys last year!
Whatcha wait'n for man!
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:33 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Mr. Adair
Just spent an hour on YouTube perusing all things Tractive and DSC. Pretty compelling stuff. Didn't know they worked with Touratec. You can definitely see that they are a little low on marketing and high on engineering! I came away with a greater appreciation of the hardware quality.
Thank you for taking the time to watch the videos. Very glad you did.


Originally Posted by Mr. Adair
Didn't know they worked with Touratec.
Yes, Tractive does a lot of on-road, off-road, and competition damper development for motorcycles. Being a motorcycle enthusiast, I LOVE that relevant tech crosses over to car dampers. That's where the special alloy 43mm inverted tube came from, MotoGP tech. Surpassing the factory Porsche 36mm standard for lateral flex resistance.

43mm and 36mm inverted monotube





Originally Posted by Mr. Adair
You can definitely see that they are a little low on marketing and high on engineering!
A principle engineer once said to me(in a heavy dutch accent): We make the good stuff. People will just buy it.
Me: headshake.
I share this in a jokingly spirit of course.


Originally Posted by Mr. Adair
The last time I heard spool valves it was in regard to F1 tech. Good stuff, pretty sure nobody is doing things like this but them..
The electronic spool valve got our attention in the Fall of 2014. Back then DSC development was at a standstill working with dampers with limited capability. They were(and still are) good dampers for the price but limited by reaction time, revalving during mid-stroke under pressure, total damping range, and they were good enough for HPDE but not good enough to race at upper levels. The DSC hardware/software can do so much more than the dampers back then. In search high and low for a more advanced damper, DSC founder Mike Levitas came across Tractive's DDA valve technology and made a phone call to them. Mike was so excited that he flew to The Netherlands the next day to the Tractive factory for a live demo. He was more than impressed with the demo, the staff, and their development operation. So we have the DSC hardware/software with factory CAN-bus interface, they have the DDA valve with the fastest reaction time, unaffected by pressure, and upper race level quality. It was too good not to work together! Thus the partnership begins. By January 2015, the first set of Tractive DDA controlled by DSC made its maiden run at Sebring International Raceway setting good lap times. By May 2015, DSC/Tractive suspension set qualifying pole position and won first race in IMSA GT3 Cup Challenge in a 997.2 Cup. As they say, the rest is history.


Originally Posted by Mr. Adair
Tom, you acquitted yourself pretty well on camera .
Thank you. I am camera shy but once I begin blabbering about stuff that I am passionate about it just flows along.

Last edited by Tom@TPC Racing; 01-12-2018 at 05:55 PM.
Old 01-14-2018, 10:33 AM
  #38  
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I have been eyeing the Tractive System for some time now. Over the holidays, my wife said that I can pursue the upgrade. I am very very excited to see what this system can do on the track! I read that most of these GT3 guys simply throw out the DSC and PASM dampers to use O r&t's, but in my opinion, Porsche engineered them for a reason. My car is shared on the track with my wife who is a B student. I feel like the Tractives can provide her with more neutral handling and more importantly, keep her SAFER than the stock PASM dampers. Anyone care to chime in on that?
Old 01-14-2018, 12:36 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by swartzzz
I have been eyeing the Tractive System for some time now. Over the holidays, my wife said that I can pursue the upgrade. I am very very excited to see what this system can do on the track! I read that most of these GT3 guys simply throw out the DSC and PASM dampers to use O r&t's, but in my opinion, Porsche engineered them for a reason. My car is shared on the track with my wife who is a B student. I feel like the Tractives can provide her with more neutral handling and more importantly, keep her SAFER than the stock PASM dampers. Anyone care to chime in on that?
I'am like you: eyeing to the Tractive System.
I have Intrax suspension fitted. It was on when I bought my gt3.
Not that bad but I never the opportunity to test a oem GT3 with PASM system to know how it works.

What is interesting for me is the "adaptative function". For a track, you can preset up your system because the curves are known, the surface is known. There is no surprise.

On roads as I have here, montain roads, it is all about surprise and changing.

I would be curious to see if Tractive Sytem would be able to adapt in each situation.

TRACTIVE/DSC would offer a satisfied or refound service.

We test it and if we are not that satisfied, we get all the stuff back.
Old 01-15-2018, 04:29 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by swartzzz
I have been eyeing the Tractive System for some time now. Over the holidays, my wife said that I can pursue the upgrade. I am very very excited to see what this system can do on the track!



Originally Posted by swartzzz
I read that most of these GT3 guys simply throw out the DSC and PASM dampers to use O r&t's, but in my opinion, Porsche engineered them for a reason.
I think the primary reason for some advanced level track drivers is they are unsatisfied with the results, which is ultimately limited by the reaction time of the PASM dampers, not the DSC. This might develop a bad taste for electronic dampers, period. Especially being that O R&T's available on Amazon for under $3K, a good single-adjustable for that price to replace aging original PASM dampers. I think some find the electronically control suspension to be bewildering. Some just have personal preference for mechanical dials or have a brand loyalty.


Originally Posted by swartzzz
Porsche engineered them for a reason
Electronics do make cars faster and safer, from electronic fuel injection, to vario-cam, to ABS, to TPM, so why not the suspension.


Originally Posted by swartzzz
My car is shared on the track with my wife who is a B student. I feel like the Tractives can provide her with more neutral handling and more importantly, keep her SAFER than the stock PASM dampers. Anyone care to chime in on that?
To be completely honest, not that I haven't been, the dampers are not the only influence on vehicle balance on and safety. Balance and safety is a sum of the setup that even includes tires and differential locking and toe setting. Having a reactive damping system such as DSC/Tractive does make the car more stable during hard braking, eliminating most(if not all) of unwanted lateral movement that might worry a student driver, and some users have reported raised threshold for ABS and ICE by managing the weight transfer to occur more gentle to the load.
Old 01-16-2018, 03:24 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by powdrhound
Hey MJ,
JRZ now also make electronic shocks with an external controller similar to trakactive and the others.
Does anyone know what they are charging for this setup? Curious to see how their pricing is structured in comparison to Tractive.
Old 01-17-2018, 11:17 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by bmwtye
Does anyone know what they are charging for this setup? Curious to see how their pricing is structured in comparison to Tractive.
Nothing yet..

http://www.jrzsuspension.com/rs-sport-one.html



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