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I am sure the electronic systems out now are excellent. For me, I just like to know when an input is ME vs. THE CAR. For example, when I first drove a 991GT car on track, I swear I was going to spin it, the rear steer felt WEIRD, needed to get used to it. But that's the sort of inputs that I like to understand are going on. When you turn a ****, it's static. Until you turn another ****. My head has enough variables to think about already :-)
Most of us aren't professional drivers, so for me, what I want is a car that feels stable and predictable, because that lets me be faster.
Do you guys have a link to the Ohlins active thing?
Thanks
Afraid not I don't have an exact link on the ohlins adjustable unit, I just saw the control unit on an exige V6 Cup of someone I know who had it installed. I can point you to the shop that installed it but being in the UK I'm not sure it will help you too much.
I know what you mean about active vs passive but I have to say I'm a bit more open to than active damper idea these days as it's in theory more adaptable to different conditions that I'd never be able to adjust properly on passives. Would love to see a test (both road and track) of a well setup TTX vs a tractive car one day though...
The tractive shocks and dsc unit will give you as close as possible to best of both worlds. The system is seemless on the street and track, and I’ve never had to make an adjustment. Keep in mind you run softer spring rates so the ride is more compliant on the street, but tightens up in sport.
I also have JRZ 2, 3and 4 way shocks as a comparison and definitely prefer the Tractives for dual purpose duty.
With electronic suspension being the way of the future, it is not surprising that more suspension damper manufacturers are coming to market with their version of aftermarket electronic dampers. Some of the aftermarket offerings use shared technology with OEM counterparts, which is a positive thing, as this brings a known quality product to market sooner and reduces cost per unit to volume. Some times it works the other way too; an OEM qualifies a privateer technology to be in mass production. Being in the suspension business, I say having more available offerings and at different price/quality levels is healthy for the electronic segment of the damper market. For those who are interested in knowing more about electronic dampers there are sub-segments of this market. They are "Semi-active" and "Reactive" , by my definition. "Semi-active" by my definition is having an electronic adjuster motor located on the damper where the compression/rebound dials are normally located. In a Semi-active system the driver needs to turn a dial or push a button or work a touch screen in order for a change to occur. The limitation here is the time it takes to make a damping change, which is around the same amount of time it takes for a person to turn a dial on the damper except the vehicle doesn't need to be stopped. Semi-active can change damping for the next set of corners to come but not fast enough to make the change for the current corner. Another limitation is the available damping curves is the same as on a mechanical damper counterpart, with the damping curves being shaped by the shim stack is valved. "Reactive" dampers have the electronic control built deeper inside the damper in order for the change to occur in milliseconds instead of seconds. Tractive dampers for example is a top-tier motorsport quality damper that changes damping force to the commands in 6 milliseconds and can change the shape of the damping curve from digressive to progressive to linear without having to re-valve the shim stack! This technological marvel is perfectly complemented by real time G-force and Velocity tuning via the vehicle's factory CAN-Bus data. Magnetic fluid dampers used by Ferrari, GM, Ford vehicles are Reactive dampers, but at this time they are not cost-effective to produce for relatively lower volume aftermarket and they have their own limitations. When shopping for an electronic damper set it is important to know whether its Semi-active or Reactive(by the definitions above, but of course they are all loosely marketed as "Active"), and the capability of the available controller(s). At DSC Sport, they develop the controller for OEM electronic and some aftermarket electronic dampers using factory CAN-Bus data and user tune-able software with tuning support.
OP, on my 7.1 GT3, I have ran OEM PASM shocks with stiffer springs, B16 with stiffer springs w/ DSC, and now Tractive w/ DSC with three different levels of spring selection- 60/100Nmm(best balance for road comfort and track day), 70/130Nmm(gave up a little bit of road comfort to favor track), 100/150Nmm(okay street ride to favor track and added aero wing). I am an advocate of electronic dampers on cars. I do love the TTX on my motorbike though.
__________________
PCA National Instructor
TPC Racing stats:
2023 Porsche Sprint Challenge 992 Cup Am Champion
2023 Porsche Sprint Challenge GT4 Pro-Am Team Champion
2022 Porsche Sprint Challenge 992 Cup & 991 Cup Champion
2020 IMSA GT3 Cup Challenge 2nd Championship
2018 IMSA GT3 Cup Challenge 2nd Championship
2016 IMSA GT3 Cup Challenge Champion
2013 IMSA GT3 Cup Challenge Champion
2006 Rolex-24 @ Daytona GT Champion
2004 Grand-Am SGS Class Champion
With electronic suspension being the way of the future, it is not surprising that more suspension damper manufacturers are coming to market with their version of aftermarket electronic dampers. Some of the aftermarket offerings use shared technology with OEM counterparts, which is a positive thing, as this brings a known quality product to market sooner and reduces cost per unit to volume. Some times it works the other way too; an OEM qualifies a privateer technology to be in mass production. Being in the suspension business, I say having more available offerings and at different price/quality levels is healthy for the electronic segment of the damper market. For those who are interested in knowing more about electronic dampers there are sub-segments of this market. They are "Semi-active" and "Reactive" , by my definition. "Semi-active" by my definition is having an electronic adjuster motor located on the damper where the compression/rebound dials are normally located. In a Semi-active system the driver needs to turn a dial or push a button or work a touch screen in order for a change to occur. The limitation here is the time it takes to make a damping change, which is around the same amount of time it takes for a person to turn a dial on the damper except the vehicle doesn't need to be stopped. Semi-active can change damping for the next set of corners to come but not fast enough to make the change for the current corner. Another limitation is the available damping curves is the same as on a mechanical damper counterpart, with the damping curves being shaped by the shim stack is valved. "Reactive" dampers have the electronic control built deeper inside the damper in order for the change to occur in milliseconds instead of seconds. Tractive dampers for example is a top-tier motorsport quality damper that changes damping force to the commands in 6 milliseconds and can change the shape of the damping curve from digressive to progressive to linear without having to re-valve the shim stack! This technological marvel is perfectly complemented by real time G-force and Velocity tuning via the vehicle's factory CAN-Bus data. Magnetic fluid dampers used by Ferrari, GM, Ford vehicles are Reactive dampers, but at this time they are not cost-effective to produce for relatively lower volume aftermarket and they have their own limitations. When shopping for an electronic damper set it is important to know whether its Semi-active or Reactive(by the definitions above, but of course they are all loosely marketed as "Active"), and the capability of the available controller(s). At DSC Sport, they develop the controller for OEM electronic and some aftermarket electronic dampers using factory CAN-Bus data and user tune-able software with tuning support.
OP, on my 7.1 GT3, I have ran OEM PASM shocks with stiffer springs, B16 with stiffer springs w/ DSC, and now Tractive w/ DSC with three different levels of spring selection- 60/100Nmm(best balance for road comfort and track day), 70/130Nmm(gave up a little bit of road comfort to favor track), 100/150Nmm(okay street ride to favor track and added aero wing). I am an advocate of electronic dampers on cars. I do love the TTX on my motorbike though.
Now this thread is getting good! Thanks Tom, I thought you might chime in. Actually all of this makes good sense. Some are add ons to existing systems in various forms and some are designed as a ground up design as you stated. It's funny because at the end of the day it still boils down to matching the proper system to the cars usage and the owners ability to drive and adjust the car and available funds Now, if we could get 4 of the same cars with 4 different setups to BIR for a day to get 10 laps in. Keep it coming..
Saw this last month at PRI show in Indianapolis. Looks to be a high quality build damper. This display damper appears to use one module per damper that commutes to a central hub module. The module casing and cabling look high quality as well.
Last edited by Tom@TPC Racing; 01-10-2018 at 02:24 PM.
Reason: added second image
Now this thread is getting good! Thanks Tom, I thought you might chime in.
Too good not to chime in.
Originally Posted by Mr. Adair
Now, if we could get 4 of the same cars with 4 different setups to BIR for a day to get 10 laps in.
I'm afraid I'm currently not in a position to organize such event, but for reference point I do have stats for 2015 and 2016 IMSA GT3 Cup Challenge USA Gold Class running 997.2 Cup.
Damper selection was free for 997.2 Cup cars, our TPC #36 entry ran Tractive RTX dampers with DSC controller in 2015-2016. The tires, geometry, ride height, spring rate, sway bars, brakes, engine, gearbox, and weight must be in spec for all competitors in the series.
Number of races: 16 (Sebring, Laguna Seca, Watkins Glen, Road America, Road Atlanta, Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, COTA, VIR)
Number of wins: 3
Number of podiums: 12
Crash out: 1
What's neat about this campaign was the top contenders were all running premiere brand top-tier adjustable dampers, each team/car had an engineer interpreting data and driver feedback with setup crew to make changes for each track and for changing conditions to allow the driver to get the most out of their car. The changes include sway bar adjustment, alignment, tire pressure, and damper adjustment. The TPC #36 entry did of course made sway bar, alignment changes to each track as every other car did in the series. But unlike every other car the damper adjustment was entrusted to the DSC reactive algorithm instead of manual damper adjustments. So in my opinion, these are good stats considering the company in this competition series and the relentless engineering effort. The DSC calibration file is available to the public on the DSC website. Another reference point, 16 races on the same set Tractive dampers with zero rebuild. After 2016 only 991 Cup cars are eligible and must run factory sealed dampers. We do have to keep in mind that in any racing environment some drivers are naturally going be able to drive 0.1 second quicker, some are going to take more risk than other for a position, and there's luck involved in the outcome of any race. But all in all the stats proves the technology is front running among the best and can win.
Originally Posted by Mr. Adair
Keep it coming..
This is where it get really good here. One damper, one dyno session, no revalving. Reality here now.
Will be interesting to see how the electronic jrz fair against the Tractive and how much user adjustment with the software they allow. And why rebuild cycle will be for jrz
But all in all the stats proves the technology is front running among the best and can win.
...and can win without having a person to turn damper adjuster dials for a particular track and for a particular day's track surface/weather conditions. Eliminating the need and the doubt for a driver who might not have the desire to make these adjustments yet want a setup capable to be in the hunt. And have comfort versatility at will.
Will be interesting to see how the electronic jrz fair against the Tractive and how much user adjustment with the software they allow. And why rebuild cycle will be for jrz
Spent some time on Tractive's site, good stuff. Some good reviews. Might be a little skittish right now on how difficult it is to get the initial setup working correctly? Then went to JRZ's site and couldn't find anything on the new "active" products?
Spent some time on Tractive's site, good stuff. Some good reviews.
Glad you decided to checked out Tractive's site. Even though they are a small business they have OEM contracts(not easy to have OE status), latest is Dallara. Small is a plus in motorsports because things get done a lot more efficiently and quickly without red tape. Tractive guys are all hardcore suspension engineers, even their accounting person is a bona fide suspension engineer. I love working with them! One thing they are not though are good marketers, which not many top tier motorsports technology people I know are. Evident by how they put more effort in the Development section of the site than any other section that might appeal more to consumers. I feel that their site could be a lot better reflection of their products and tech achievements, but they are busy doing their thing developing tech, they have no time to make their site more consumer-attractive. LOL
Originally Posted by Mr. Adair
Might be a little skittish right now on how difficult it is to get the initial setup working correctly?
Not at all, Sir. TPC partnered up with Tractive has implemented their marvelous patented damping tech in to sorted bolt-on packages for road and track applications. From plug & play systems for factory PASM-equipped cars(997/987/991/981) to streamlined standalone systems for 964/993 to Cup cars, they are available a phone call/email away. My affiliation, and one of my roles is a fitment specialist and calibrator making sure every user worldwide have a proper setup and the installs go smoothly container after container of reactive dampers. I am very thankful and feel privileged to partake in this golden age of bringing electronic damping technology to end users and being an interpreter for the Tractive guys who speak deep engineering.
Last edited by Tom@TPC Racing; 01-11-2018 at 10:20 PM.
01-09-2018, 09:03 AM
Now, if we could get 4 of the same cars with 4 different setups to BIR for a day to get 10 laps in. Keep it coming..
