Batman33

Thanks rbennett.

Flat6 Innovations

Every time that you hear that noise at start up, you are beating the timing chains, and guide rails into submission.

If you hear that, fix the problem. No noise inside of an engine is normal, and none should be accepted. Fix it, before it finds your wallet.

Batman33

Thanks. Understood. I'm having an indy listen to it this week. Who knows....maybe I'll be I touch to discuss an engine rebuild with you folks.

jchapura

How do we prevent getting this noise or the condition? Is it just higher frequency oil changes with "better" oil? Or can preemptively changing some parts help? If so, which ones? Many thanks for your contributions to the field.

DC911S

If it jumped a tooth or two the engine would be gone. The Pistons would be hitting the valves. Common issue in B6 S4. Bad timing components failing and turning the engine into a expensive paperweight.

syzygy333

if a chain jumped one tooth, the entire affair would be quite evident, all the time. and likely cel (s). I've been down the road of unnecessary repair (jaguar v12 head gaskets). I think a good independent could rule in/out a tensioner issue. I did pull the jag engine apart and honestly, 20% of me did it just due to fascination with mechanical components etc. yep, I am a petrol head I guess.

i'm hoping to never go that route with the Porsche, I would get multiple opinions on your cold start mystery noise!

Batman33

syzygy33, Thanks. Indeed it would be quite evident. My original post inquired as to whether I needed to lock the crank and valve train down if, I end up replacing the tensioners, to keep the that (the chain jumping teeth) from happening. I share your petrol head tendencies. If I didn't already know the adverse impact of bad value timing, I probably wouldn't (or shouldn't) be on this forum to begin with...LOL! Re, multiple opinions....the Dude abides. (Sorry, I don't call myself the Dude....I just love the movie.)

Flat6 Innovations

The internal seals of the tensioners get tired and allow them to bleed tension due to a loss of hydraulic pressure.

This isn't just about them getting to the point where timing chains can jump a tooth (haven't seen that yet with an M96) but more about the chains dying an early death from being operated while slackened. The same goes with the chain rails, since the chains hammer against them. The noise you are hearing is just that, and it's not good. This leads to tons of debris in the oil that doesn't need to be there.

Some oils make this worse, and to date nothing we've tested is better for this condition than Redline oil. I have seen this condition go away completely when filling an engine with Redline.. That said, we've constantly worked with Driven DT40 to work in the same manner, and we are almost there.

Two weeks ago we did a post- mortem on an engine that suffered IMSB failure along with tensioner paddle failure. What we found was the IMSB was tertiary damage, and the tensioner paddle was secondary damage, as the IMS hydraulic tensioner failed as the primary failure. The tensioner hyper extended and jammed the tensioner paddle rooting against the IMS drive chain.

I've seen this before.

That said, the best way to remedy this is by replacing the tensioners. They are not expensive and are available through www.rndeuroparts.com which means they come with support from my company,The Knowledge Gruppe.

Theres one more way to kill this noise, have filed for a Patent for this product, and not sure when it will make it to market. Through the Provisional Patent that I have now I could market it, so negotiations are ongoing with LN and RND about making this available to you guys. I damn sure won't sell anything myself !

Batman33

YES...I KNOW!! A possible remedy is to replace the tensioners! I simply asking in my original post if I need to lock the crank and cam shafts when doing their replacement!? Nobody seems to be willing able or able to answer what I thought was a simple question. Jeesze.

Flat6 Innovations

Index the crank at TDC, and lock it. Lock the cams and remove all the tensioners and replace them one at a time. Don't pull all 3, at once, then replace them.

Batman33

I take that as a "yes" to my question. Thanks Jake. Drop me a line if you ever are near our nation's capital and I will spring for a few cold ones in return.

syzygy333

hey Batman, looks like flat6/Jake is super knowledgeable and honest. I like him already. you got your answer it seems, though a tortuous route to get there indeed.
I too love that movie, and most of the Coen bros. work. TBL was a pinnacle, but so was raising Arizona! genius work.
Forget about the F#$@*&^ toe!

Batman33

Yeah, well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

syzygy333

what do you expect from an exhistentialist. don't pee on the rug, man

Batman33

This could go on forever...so many good lines in that movie. I've managed to jack my own thread. Every time my 22 year old nephew visits, we watch that movie. I use the opening as an alarm clock to get him out of bed...turn the home theater up real loud....."a tumbiin' tumbilin' down"...."sometimes a man.....ah shoot..." Have a good one.