What do you expect for $100K?
08-24-2016, 02:24 AM
#61
Rennlist Member
Not sure what version 997 you have, and how its interior was optioned, but in my experience, both of my 997.2 cars have had nicer interiors than any BMW we've had, including the last one, a nicely equipped 2013 535i M Sport. And my (admittedly upgraded since factory spec) GTS interior is nicer than those of any of the many of the 991.1 cars I've driven. I don't believe there is any difference in plastics going from 997.2 to 991.1, so that was likely down to options. The 991 interior is essentially, in terms of materials and layout, a smaller version of our Panamera. I think Porsche made a noticeable jump from 997.1 to 997.2 plastics and trim, though, especially in the center stack area.
the black plastic door sills are complete garbage and SO prone to scratches while getting in and out of the car. one must be super careful with foot and leg placement on ingress and egress, which isn't often easy given the tight garage confines i have to park in. mine were completely thrashed within a week of owning the car. this was a major disappointment.
the one aspect of my 997's interior that's truly classy is the alcantara headliner.
bottom line, i shouldn't have to feel like i'm in a museum, trying not to abuse or scratch anything each time i get in the car, but with the 997, i kinda do. by comparison, my 12 year old Toyota 4Runner has interior plastics and trim pieces that feel no cheaper than the Porsche and yet withstand far more abuse and regular wear/tear without looking like it's going to fall apart.
sorry for the rant, but to answer the original question on this thread, i would be disappointed if i'd spent near the $106K my car originally stickered at given its interior quality. fortunately i spent much less than that.
08-24-2016, 02:33 AM
#62
Rennlist Member
Today I have to admit that as big as a Porsche fan that I am... I started to get really annoyed with Porsche marketing and pricing starting with option prices on the 997.2. Suddenly in 2009 there was $20k jump in pricing for options added to almost every car and those options basically being electronic gadgets and gizmos. Especially when these gadgets come standard on cars costing $20k new!!! From 2012-Present the pricing of all porsche options just makes me angry. I can no longer justify spending $30-40k for gadgets and options on any car. Suddenly I honestly started to question if the 911 was worth the asking price any more, especially when the options cost more then a decent new car!
Today, a nice Carrera S with good options is pushing 150k out the door. I honestly now think that new Porsches are no longer worth their asking prices.
Today, a nice Carrera S with good options is pushing 150k out the door. I honestly now think that new Porsches are no longer worth their asking prices.
I suspect many of us here in the 997 board aren't original owners. Like you, we just can't bear to get soaked with the kind of depreciation you get when buying one of these things brand new. I certainly can't, anyway. Best to wait 3-4 years and let someone else suffer that for us.
BTW - I love your videos w/ Matt Farah. Your 997 sounds amazing. It had me researching intake plenums
08-24-2016, 04:21 AM
#63
My 997.2 has the standard interior - no extended leather, w/ power comfort seats and seat ventilation option. The dash material is hardly what i'd call cheap but certainly nothing special. the soft-touch plastics used on the door panel and around the shifter have a fragile look and feel about them. i've seen examples of other 997s where this trim was scratched and peeled so i'm very careful about not dinging these areas in my car.
the black plastic door sills are complete garbage and SO prone to scratches while getting in and out of the car. one must be super careful with foot and leg placement on ingress and egress, which isn't often easy given the tight garage confines i have to park in. mine were completely thrashed within a week of owning the car. this was a major disappointment.
the one aspect of my 997's interior that's truly classy is the alcantara headliner.
bottom line, i shouldn't have to feel like i'm in a museum, trying not to abuse or scratch anything each time i get in the car, but with the 997, i kinda do. by comparison, my 12 year old Toyota 4Runner has interior plastics and trim pieces that feel no cheaper than the Porsche and yet withstand far more abuse and regular wear/tear without looking like it's going to fall apart.
sorry for the rant, but to answer the original question on this thread, i would be disappointed if i'd spent near the $106K my car originally stickered at given its interior quality. fortunately i spent much less than that.
the black plastic door sills are complete garbage and SO prone to scratches while getting in and out of the car. one must be super careful with foot and leg placement on ingress and egress, which isn't often easy given the tight garage confines i have to park in. mine were completely thrashed within a week of owning the car. this was a major disappointment.
the one aspect of my 997's interior that's truly classy is the alcantara headliner.
bottom line, i shouldn't have to feel like i'm in a museum, trying not to abuse or scratch anything each time i get in the car, but with the 997, i kinda do. by comparison, my 12 year old Toyota 4Runner has interior plastics and trim pieces that feel no cheaper than the Porsche and yet withstand far more abuse and regular wear/tear without looking like it's going to fall apart.
sorry for the rant, but to answer the original question on this thread, i would be disappointed if i'd spent near the $106K my car originally stickered at given its interior quality. fortunately i spent much less than that.
But then I'd still be happy to spend $100k on a 997 when it was new, if my priority allowed for it. Because my E91 is a luxury car (even entry-level models have come a long way), and the 997 is not. The 997 is a sports car, and its excellent road manners more than made up for its minor flaws.
I could've even gotten an M3 w/ great interior and similar performance, but I'd still be disappointed it's not a 911.
Now I'm sure some will chime in and claim 997 is more like a luxury GT than a sports car, and that's where this argument comes around -- how can a 997 call itself a luxury car when it is outdone by a BMW at half price?
08-24-2016, 10:25 AM
#64
Drifting
Option price creep is outstanding on Porsche. You can add 30-50% to the price of the car....easily. What more incredible is that, we the consumer, have drunk that cool aid. Oh I need the $5k nav, the $10k full leather, the $1k crested seat? As above, who is buying a $1ooK car and who is financing?
I was looking at a boat down the street in Kingston Ontario. 21 footer center console, well priced. It had a toilet in/under the center console. I thought it odd that such a small boat would have a head? I inquired with the sales guy. I would appear that as an American, you could get a mortgage if it had a bathroom. You could fiance your cottage like boat, over 25 years. Don't know if those loop hole are still there. But wow, some people are creative in financing their stuff.
I'm no rocket surgeon, don't make enough money. $1ook car? My biggest issue with that car figure is the tax. At 13% here, a $1ook car's tax is a brand new car in itself. To me that is a tuff nut to swallow?
I was looking at a boat down the street in Kingston Ontario. 21 footer center console, well priced. It had a toilet in/under the center console. I thought it odd that such a small boat would have a head? I inquired with the sales guy. I would appear that as an American, you could get a mortgage if it had a bathroom. You could fiance your cottage like boat, over 25 years. Don't know if those loop hole are still there. But wow, some people are creative in financing their stuff.
I'm no rocket surgeon, don't make enough money. $1ook car? My biggest issue with that car figure is the tax. At 13% here, a $1ook car's tax is a brand new car in itself. To me that is a tuff nut to swallow?
08-24-2016, 10:56 AM
#65
Three Wheelin'
Option price creep is outstanding on Porsche. You can add 30-50% to the price of the car....easily. What more incredible is that, we the consumer, have drunk that cool aid. Oh I need the $5k nav, the $10k full leather, the $1k crested seat? As above, who is buying a $1ooK car and who is financing?
I was looking at a boat down the street in Kingston Ontario. 21 footer center console, well priced. It had a toilet in/under the center console. I thought it odd that such a small boat would have a head? I inquired with the sales guy. I would appear that as an American, you could get a mortgage if it had a bathroom. You could fiance your cottage like boat, over 25 years. Don't know if those loop hole are still there. But wow, some people are creative in financing their stuff.
I'm no rocket surgeon, don't make enough money. $1ook car? My biggest issue with that car figure is the tax. At 13% here, a $1ook car's tax is a brand new car in itself. To me that is a tuff nut to swallow?
I was looking at a boat down the street in Kingston Ontario. 21 footer center console, well priced. It had a toilet in/under the center console. I thought it odd that such a small boat would have a head? I inquired with the sales guy. I would appear that as an American, you could get a mortgage if it had a bathroom. You could fiance your cottage like boat, over 25 years. Don't know if those loop hole are still there. But wow, some people are creative in financing their stuff.
I'm no rocket surgeon, don't make enough money. $1ook car? My biggest issue with that car figure is the tax. At 13% here, a $1ook car's tax is a brand new car in itself. To me that is a tuff nut to swallow?
08-24-2016, 05:48 PM
#66
ok, I gotta chime in too and I have had similar ideas and thinking as the op. Are Porsche 911s really worth $100k?
Just a little history, I have been a car and driver guy for over 30 years. The Porsche 911 is a car that most of us grew up reading about in the magazines and dreaming about owning some day. It represents an incredible racing heritage, performance, and unique driving experience that really does create life long enthusiasts for most who are fortunate enough to own/drive one. On a superficial level, it also represents a level of achievement or financial income. People want to be seen in a car that represents their level of "success" and Porsche represents people who most likely earn 100k plus.
I have been a die hard Porsche fanatic and owner for 16 years. I admired them from afar when I was younger, but once I drove one, it became my mission to own one. Now I own several and purchased all of them gently used and letting the original owners take most of the depreciation hit.
I remember walking around the Porsche parking lot at a special intro day around 2005 when the introduction of the 997 happened. I remember looking at nicely optioned 2005 Carrera S 997 for 100k and honestly thinking they were a bargain. Being a car guy I could totally justify the price when I would think about the performance, quality, heritage, brand, and looks. When I saw the 997 it was the first 911 that I felt in my gut that I HAVE to have it some day and new at $100k I felt it was worth it. My 2006 C4S is a very nicely optioned 911 that stickered at $115k new. I Purchased it in 2010 gently used with cpo and only 6300 miles on it for about 60% of the original price.
Today I have to admit that as big as a Porsche fan that I am... I started to get really annoyed with Porsche marketing and pricing starting with option prices on the 997.2. Suddenly in 2009 there was $20k jump in pricing for options added to almost every car and those options basically being electronic gadgets and gizmos. Especially when these gadgets come standard on cars costing $20k new!!! From 2012-Present the pricing of all porsche options just makes me angry. I can no longer justify spending $30-40k for gadgets and options on any car. Suddenly I honestly started to question if the 911 was worth the asking price any more, especially when the options cost more then a decent new car!
Today, a nice Carrera S with good options is pushing 150k out the door. I honestly now think that new Porsches are no longer worth their asking prices.
Just a little history, I have been a car and driver guy for over 30 years. The Porsche 911 is a car that most of us grew up reading about in the magazines and dreaming about owning some day. It represents an incredible racing heritage, performance, and unique driving experience that really does create life long enthusiasts for most who are fortunate enough to own/drive one. On a superficial level, it also represents a level of achievement or financial income. People want to be seen in a car that represents their level of "success" and Porsche represents people who most likely earn 100k plus.
I have been a die hard Porsche fanatic and owner for 16 years. I admired them from afar when I was younger, but once I drove one, it became my mission to own one. Now I own several and purchased all of them gently used and letting the original owners take most of the depreciation hit.
I remember walking around the Porsche parking lot at a special intro day around 2005 when the introduction of the 997 happened. I remember looking at nicely optioned 2005 Carrera S 997 for 100k and honestly thinking they were a bargain. Being a car guy I could totally justify the price when I would think about the performance, quality, heritage, brand, and looks. When I saw the 997 it was the first 911 that I felt in my gut that I HAVE to have it some day and new at $100k I felt it was worth it. My 2006 C4S is a very nicely optioned 911 that stickered at $115k new. I Purchased it in 2010 gently used with cpo and only 6300 miles on it for about 60% of the original price.
Today I have to admit that as big as a Porsche fan that I am... I started to get really annoyed with Porsche marketing and pricing starting with option prices on the 997.2. Suddenly in 2009 there was $20k jump in pricing for options added to almost every car and those options basically being electronic gadgets and gizmos. Especially when these gadgets come standard on cars costing $20k new!!! From 2012-Present the pricing of all porsche options just makes me angry. I can no longer justify spending $30-40k for gadgets and options on any car. Suddenly I honestly started to question if the 911 was worth the asking price any more, especially when the options cost more then a decent new car!
Today, a nice Carrera S with good options is pushing 150k out the door. I honestly now think that new Porsches are no longer worth their asking prices.
Gadgets and gizmos.
When the sales guy showed me the Porsche nav. system I laughed in his face.
The ultimate accessory: Leather covered fuse box holder.
Little interior bits of CG for thousands.
Unless it helps me go faster, safer, I'm not a fan.
It's amazing that Porsche offers that level of individualization today, but I've got to go figure what color my leather fuse box holder will be. That should keep me busy for hours...
08-24-2016, 07:30 PM
#67
At least Porsche isn't the only German marque that's guilty of option creep and nickle-and-diming buyers for every last option, although I totally agree with you. In looking at the Monroney sticker of my 2010 C2S, Bluetooth added $695 to the sticker price. Dynamic cornering lights were $690. Both were free on my 335i. That's outrageous.
I suspect many of us here in the 997 board aren't original owners. Like you, we just can't bear to get soaked with the kind of depreciation you get when buying one of these things brand new. I certainly can't, anyway. Best to wait 3-4 years and let someone else suffer that for us.
BTW - I love your videos w/ Matt Farah. Your 997 sounds amazing. It had me researching intake plenums
I suspect many of us here in the 997 board aren't original owners. Like you, we just can't bear to get soaked with the kind of depreciation you get when buying one of these things brand new. I certainly can't, anyway. Best to wait 3-4 years and let someone else suffer that for us.
BTW - I love your videos w/ Matt Farah. Your 997 sounds amazing. It had me researching intake plenums
You know I have to add... I had a Bmw guy come up to me while I was waiting at the tire shop once and, maybe out of jealousy or something, I don't know,, but he started talking arrogantly about the gadgets his bmw came with standard and I guess was trying to make me feel bad about the interior quality and lack of bluetooth/nav/usb on some of the 911s for the price they ask... I looked at him straight in the eyes and said.. "I don't know any Porsche enthusiast who buys a Porsche for their interiors... they buy a Porsche so they can have their minds blown and make O-Faces every time they drive it because its so awesome." That pretty much shut him up
. I have found that 4-5 years old is the sweet spot to buy. Around then they still have relatively low miles and hit their 60% of original new price point. You feel that what you are getting is a real good bargain at $60-70k with low miles vs paying the $100-120k when they were new.
Last edited by qikqbn; 10-07-2016 at 06:41 PM.
08-25-2016, 11:47 AM
#68
What Porsche has shown me is that I can own a clean 09 C2S and still have it regarded as a new car. Subtle changes in body designs needs a sharp eye to distinguish model changes.
So when I spend 100k + on a 1 yr old 911, it'll still look good and current 7 yrs from now. Unlike GM Corvette, mustangs etc.
So when I spend 100k + on a 1 yr old 911, it'll still look good and current 7 yrs from now. Unlike GM Corvette, mustangs etc.
08-25-2016, 02:20 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
What Porsche has shown me is that I can own a clean 09 C2S and still have it regarded as a new car. Subtle changes in body designs needs a sharp eye to distinguish model changes.
So when I spend 100k + on a 1 yr old 911, it'll still look good and current 7 yrs from now. Unlike GM Corvette, mustangs etc.
So when I spend 100k + on a 1 yr old 911, it'll still look good and current 7 yrs from now. Unlike GM Corvette, mustangs etc.
08-25-2016, 02:33 PM
#70
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Bing! You hit a nerve with me..... I guess this goes to the whole "I'll pay anything to own a race car.... look at me! look at me!!!"
In short, these cars are overpriced as evidenced by Porsche having the highest profit of any car maker on a unit basis...... by a long shot. I see this with new sales of course, but in the used market where people just want the car and are not willing to wait, and just think it should be expensive because... well, I think they want it to be.
I saw something similar with Ferrari owners..... I would hear perverted bragging about maintenance costs..... something like "Of course it is expensive, it is a thoroughbred".... whatever that means.
People want stuff and are willing to pay top dollar. What the underlying weight per dollar, or HP per dollar, or gadgets per dollar is really don't matter. Anyone willing to pay north of 100K for a car is not buying value, they are buying something else.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
In short, these cars are overpriced as evidenced by Porsche having the highest profit of any car maker on a unit basis...... by a long shot. I see this with new sales of course, but in the used market where people just want the car and are not willing to wait, and just think it should be expensive because... well, I think they want it to be.
I saw something similar with Ferrari owners..... I would hear perverted bragging about maintenance costs..... something like "Of course it is expensive, it is a thoroughbred".... whatever that means.
People want stuff and are willing to pay top dollar. What the underlying weight per dollar, or HP per dollar, or gadgets per dollar is really don't matter. Anyone willing to pay north of 100K for a car is not buying value, they are buying something else.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
08-25-2016, 04:48 PM
#71
Race Car
Options are everything in the 911. Put it this way my 911 is so well optioned that I refuse to sell it for all these really nice but poorly optioned 997.2's that I keep seeing.
Realized finding everything (Full leather, PCCB, Alcantara, Adaptive Sport Seats, and PSE etc. on a Carrera S is almost impossible.
That's when you realize you have a keeper.
08-25-2016, 05:26 PM
#73
It's worth what you're willing to pay. My car is worth more to me than what I paid for it / what it goes in the market for, otherwise I would not have bought it, or I would sell it now.
Any other way to look at it is a bit silly. A Lada might have zero profit margin and have cost $5k to make and sell for $5k. I would still rather have my $5k than the Lada (no hate on Ladas).
If one day Porsche found some magic factory, that spat out cars at $1 per car, and made a zillion percent margin, it wouldn't somehow change the "worth" of their cars vs. other cars.
Their profit margin could have as much to do with their vehicle mix as to anything else. It may cost them $50k to make a Cayenne they charge $150k for, and $110k to make a $120k 911. They would show tremendous margin because of their sales mix, but it wouldn't make the 911 a "bad deal" (even though I disagree with even looking at the above as meaning much).
Just my thoughts.
Any other way to look at it is a bit silly. A Lada might have zero profit margin and have cost $5k to make and sell for $5k. I would still rather have my $5k than the Lada (no hate on Ladas).
If one day Porsche found some magic factory, that spat out cars at $1 per car, and made a zillion percent margin, it wouldn't somehow change the "worth" of their cars vs. other cars.
Their profit margin could have as much to do with their vehicle mix as to anything else. It may cost them $50k to make a Cayenne they charge $150k for, and $110k to make a $120k 911. They would show tremendous margin because of their sales mix, but it wouldn't make the 911 a "bad deal" (even though I disagree with even looking at the above as meaning much).
Just my thoughts.
08-25-2016, 11:17 PM
#75
Race Car
Well the options I would say are not what a 911 is all about - agree but it sure is sweeter when you steal a fully loaded 997 for 60% less than what that buyer who kept it garaged for you paid. You don't "need" these options but once you have them especially adaptive seats or GT2 seats and full leather etc. - it might take some convincing to give that up.