Intake upgrade is worth it
05-04-2016, 03:37 PM
#61
Burning Brakes
There is a performance consideration for runner length on the intake side as well as on those beautiful headers-collector on the exhaust side.
In some cases, like Ford's 427 at Lemans, the webers just had velocity stacks of a few inches before the carb throats (for space reasons), but the intake manifold was a high riser.
Torque can be lost.
Tuned length for intended max torque at a given pulse rate (rpm), in conjunction with the rest of the engine design (to resonate when possible in unison), these gas pipe lengths (not just the cross section for low restriction) aer set for a reason.
The factory box as a longer run to the plenum than the K&N filter holder, so that means the torque curve will shift going to K&N.
A basic example of this is the large (longish) snorkel that came with cars in the 50s-late 70s mounted to the side of the air cleaner. We used to flip the top lid upside down so the intake sounded better, but we lost torque in just that one mod.
It is a balance of intended design parameters, as well all know.
Then there is the temp of the intake AIR. Anyone have a way of measuring (logging) that while driving with these two intake filter setups ?
In some cases, like Ford's 427 at Lemans, the webers just had velocity stacks of a few inches before the carb throats (for space reasons), but the intake manifold was a high riser.
Torque can be lost.
Tuned length for intended max torque at a given pulse rate (rpm), in conjunction with the rest of the engine design (to resonate when possible in unison), these gas pipe lengths (not just the cross section for low restriction) aer set for a reason.
The factory box as a longer run to the plenum than the K&N filter holder, so that means the torque curve will shift going to K&N.
A basic example of this is the large (longish) snorkel that came with cars in the 50s-late 70s mounted to the side of the air cleaner. We used to flip the top lid upside down so the intake sounded better, but we lost torque in just that one mod.
It is a balance of intended design parameters, as well all know.
Then there is the temp of the intake AIR. Anyone have a way of measuring (logging) that while driving with these two intake filter setups ?
Last edited by Ericson38; 05-04-2016 at 03:53 PM.
05-04-2016, 08:43 PM
#62
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Brentwood
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dyno'd my car with the Fabspeed HAI. Here is my results. Of course this is RWHP...well AWHP in my case with a 4S.
Best run was the third. Have not been back to dyno again with stock air box...but this is as real as it gets.
There were fans in front and in back blowing air to the car as well.
With the fans it made it a WAI ( Warm Air Intake )
Best run was the third. Have not been back to dyno again with stock air box...but this is as real as it gets.
There were fans in front and in back blowing air to the car as well.
With the fans it made it a WAI ( Warm Air Intake )
05-04-2016, 11:41 PM
#64
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Brentwood
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
05-05-2016, 01:29 AM
#65
Rennlist Member
I'll offer an example of the aftermarket whooping Porsche's *** up and down the street:
Shift kits and short shift kits.
How can the aftermarket improve on the manual driving experience? Porsche is run by the gods of the engaging automotive experience, so Porsche's stock shifter components must be best. /sarcasm
If you look to things such as intakes, you need to understand how companies use suppliers and parts flow to understand why they tend to use certain parts and components in their broader models (pretty generic air filter in there stock intake, too, aside from cheaper materials). So, the overall intake is nice, and the filter is nice, but it's using supplies, suppliers and designs that don't need to be re-qualified, retested or sourced from new suppliers, risking current inventories, creating ridiculous costs and to be handled by people that are 100% utilized on other endeavours, etc.
It's more complicated, but the gist is that it's very likely Porsche knows there are numerous improvements to be had, but they can't explore all of them practically. They get 80% of the results with 20% of the time/money/risk investment. To squeeze out the last 20% of any effort results in exponential cost increases.
If every labor resource it utilized, who is doing very specific intake work to get that next 8 HP and vetting out all the data, supplies, etc?
But we can just simplify and say, "Porsche knows best!" -- They very well might, but they aren't positioned to extract the best everywhere.
.
Shift kits and short shift kits.
How can the aftermarket improve on the manual driving experience? Porsche is run by the gods of the engaging automotive experience, so Porsche's stock shifter components must be best. /sarcasm
If you look to things such as intakes, you need to understand how companies use suppliers and parts flow to understand why they tend to use certain parts and components in their broader models (pretty generic air filter in there stock intake, too, aside from cheaper materials). So, the overall intake is nice, and the filter is nice, but it's using supplies, suppliers and designs that don't need to be re-qualified, retested or sourced from new suppliers, risking current inventories, creating ridiculous costs and to be handled by people that are 100% utilized on other endeavours, etc.
It's more complicated, but the gist is that it's very likely Porsche knows there are numerous improvements to be had, but they can't explore all of them practically. They get 80% of the results with 20% of the time/money/risk investment. To squeeze out the last 20% of any effort results in exponential cost increases.
If every labor resource it utilized, who is doing very specific intake work to get that next 8 HP and vetting out all the data, supplies, etc?
But we can just simplify and say, "Porsche knows best!" -- They very well might, but they aren't positioned to extract the best everywhere.
.
That's the difference. If the manufacture falsely claims the HP gains big time lawsuits happen, ask Ford and Mazda how that worked out. That's why their "kits" always are so much more conservative (legit) than the others.
I have a lot of experience with this in 2 other cars.
E46 m3, the solution to "extract" every last bit of hp out of the car is a CSL. 355 hp from 3.2L. The car was much more expensive than a traditional 333hp e46 m3, but it is LEGIT HP. So this example bmw squeezed 22hp out of a 3.2L
The car I had previous to that was a 2003 350z. 287hp from 3.5L. Rather mild HP given the displacement but it was 2003 and a $35k car. Nissan has the Nismo parts and I did most of it besides the cams. Intake, headers and exhaust. This combo was good for 25hp. Yes, all 3, not just the exhaust, NOT another 15 hp for headers and another 13hp for intake. 25hp for all 3 parts. This was much less than many of the aftermarket companies were claiming with their parts, but again, it was legit HP. Again, nissan was ONLY able to extract 25 extra HP out of a 3.5L motor.
My personal belief is that out of a NA motor run on gas in the US and has to comply with emissions, and be reliable, we are looking at cars producing just north of 100hp per liter. There are a few outliers (s2000 2.0 w/ 240 hp, and Ferrari). But a car with larger pistons is more difficult to do that.
This isn't the days in the 80s where a 5.0 mustang produces 225hp. We are well beyond that. Which is why I am much more likely to believe a KN filter on a 1988 mustang just might produce an extra 10-15hp on every dyno run.
But a 911? Nope.
05-05-2016, 01:41 AM
#66
Rennlist Member
This is basic science guys. Lots of failing grades for guys taking research methods class.
Let me give you a hint. You have to have several runs of one car with the stock intake and several with the aftermarket part. All other parts stay the same (only 1 variable can change) and has to run in the exact same gas, and the exact same environment and NOT done by anyone with an interest in the product because things can be "altered" to prove one way or another.
So since 2005, there aren't at least a few of these dynos out there?
Btw, why would anyone get a dyno after installing an aftermarket part but not before? How the heck do you know what the baseline was? What's the point?
The legit Honda Civic guys may not have the coin to buy a porsche but they sure as hell would come on here and laugh at all BS about how to get this stuff sorted and proven.
It isn't that complicated.
Let me give you a hint. You have to have several runs of one car with the stock intake and several with the aftermarket part. All other parts stay the same (only 1 variable can change) and has to run in the exact same gas, and the exact same environment and NOT done by anyone with an interest in the product because things can be "altered" to prove one way or another.
So since 2005, there aren't at least a few of these dynos out there?
Btw, why would anyone get a dyno after installing an aftermarket part but not before? How the heck do you know what the baseline was? What's the point?
The legit Honda Civic guys may not have the coin to buy a porsche but they sure as hell would come on here and laugh at all BS about how to get this stuff sorted and proven.
It isn't that complicated.
05-05-2016, 08:02 AM
#67
Three Wheelin'
My reply would be Porsche does know best. They know every weakness and area where the car can be modified to extract more HP. The solution? X51 kit. That's the example of spending a lot more time and resources to extract more HP. The thing that is different is that it "only" produces 26 more HP, but it is REAL HP and not some fairytale.
That's the difference. If the manufacture falsely claims the HP gains big time lawsuits happen, ask Ford and Mazda how that worked out. That's why their "kits" always are so much more conservative (legit) than the others.
I have a lot of experience with this in 2 other cars.
E46 m3, the solution to "extract" every last bit of hp out of the car is a CSL. 355 hp from 3.2L. The car was much more expensive than a traditional 333hp e46 m3, but it is LEGIT HP. So this example bmw squeezed 22hp out of a 3.2L
The car I had previous to that was a 2003 350z. 287hp from 3.5L. Rather mild HP given the displacement but it was 2003 and a $35k car. Nissan has the Nismo parts and I did most of it besides the cams. Intake, headers and exhaust. This combo was good for 25hp. Yes, all 3, not just the exhaust, NOT another 15 hp for headers and another 13hp for intake. 25hp for all 3 parts. This was much less than many of the aftermarket companies were claiming with their parts, but again, it was legit HP. Again, nissan was ONLY able to extract 25 extra HP out of a 3.5L motor.
My personal belief is that out of a NA motor run on gas in the US and has to comply with emissions, and be reliable, we are looking at cars producing just north of 100hp per liter. There are a few outliers (s2000 2.0 w/ 240 hp, and Ferrari). But a car with larger pistons is more difficult to do that.
This isn't the days in the 80s where a 5.0 mustang produces 225hp. We are well beyond that. Which is why I am much more likely to believe a KN filter on a 1988 mustang just might produce an extra 10-15hp on every dyno run.
But a 911? Nope.
That's the difference. If the manufacture falsely claims the HP gains big time lawsuits happen, ask Ford and Mazda how that worked out. That's why their "kits" always are so much more conservative (legit) than the others.
I have a lot of experience with this in 2 other cars.
E46 m3, the solution to "extract" every last bit of hp out of the car is a CSL. 355 hp from 3.2L. The car was much more expensive than a traditional 333hp e46 m3, but it is LEGIT HP. So this example bmw squeezed 22hp out of a 3.2L
The car I had previous to that was a 2003 350z. 287hp from 3.5L. Rather mild HP given the displacement but it was 2003 and a $35k car. Nissan has the Nismo parts and I did most of it besides the cams. Intake, headers and exhaust. This combo was good for 25hp. Yes, all 3, not just the exhaust, NOT another 15 hp for headers and another 13hp for intake. 25hp for all 3 parts. This was much less than many of the aftermarket companies were claiming with their parts, but again, it was legit HP. Again, nissan was ONLY able to extract 25 extra HP out of a 3.5L motor.
My personal belief is that out of a NA motor run on gas in the US and has to comply with emissions, and be reliable, we are looking at cars producing just north of 100hp per liter. There are a few outliers (s2000 2.0 w/ 240 hp, and Ferrari). But a car with larger pistons is more difficult to do that.
This isn't the days in the 80s where a 5.0 mustang produces 225hp. We are well beyond that. Which is why I am much more likely to believe a KN filter on a 1988 mustang just might produce an extra 10-15hp on every dyno run.
But a 911? Nope.
Also, you accept that HP is left on the table, that it's hard to extract, that development is needed to extract it, and that since that development takes time and resources (human effort), just bolting on 26 HP is expensive.
End of story.
For the record, I might respect efforts from Porsche, Ferrari, et al, but I don't kneel at any of their alters. They are not gods; they are not infallible, and they are limited often by the fact that they have profits and margins to worry about. Whether you accept these realities is (apparently) out of my control.
Explain why the shifter is easily improved by an aftermarket shifter/short-shift component. Porsche knows best, and yet they don't offer a 3500 dollar option box for this upgrade (to compare it to your X51 point that makes my point).
We can go around and around as you cling to this notion that Porsche is.... perfect. If not perfect in base model, then perfect by checking a box (e.g., X51). Your argument is so seriously flawed, you cannot even argue from a position of being wrong, because it's not ever a practical argument to be taken seriously when you propose a manufacturer is perfect.
.
Last edited by Philster; 05-05-2016 at 10:10 AM.
05-05-2016, 08:31 AM
#68
Your reply ignores key elements of my reply (in which I say Porsche might very well know best, but....).
Also, you accept that HP is left on the table, that it's hard to extract, that development is needed to extract it, and that since that development takes time and resources (human effort), just bolting on 26 HP is expensive.
End of story.
For the record, I might respect efforts from Porsche, Ferrari, et al, but I don't kneel at any of their alters. They are not gods; they are not infallible, and they are limited often by the fact that they have profits and margins to worry about. Whether you accept these realities is (apparently) out of my control.
Explain why the shifter is easily improved by an aftermarket shifter/short-**** component. Porsche knows best, and yet they don't offer a 3500 dollar option box for this upgrade (to compare it to your X51 point that makes my point).
We can go around and around as you cling to this notion that Porsche is.... perfect. If not perfect in base model, then perfect by checking a box (e.g., X51). Your argument is so seriously flawed, you cannot even argue from a position of being wrong, because it's not ever a practical argument to be taken seriously when you propose a manufacturer is perfect.
.
Also, you accept that HP is left on the table, that it's hard to extract, that development is needed to extract it, and that since that development takes time and resources (human effort), just bolting on 26 HP is expensive.
End of story.
For the record, I might respect efforts from Porsche, Ferrari, et al, but I don't kneel at any of their alters. They are not gods; they are not infallible, and they are limited often by the fact that they have profits and margins to worry about. Whether you accept these realities is (apparently) out of my control.
Explain why the shifter is easily improved by an aftermarket shifter/short-**** component. Porsche knows best, and yet they don't offer a 3500 dollar option box for this upgrade (to compare it to your X51 point that makes my point).
We can go around and around as you cling to this notion that Porsche is.... perfect. If not perfect in base model, then perfect by checking a box (e.g., X51). Your argument is so seriously flawed, you cannot even argue from a position of being wrong, because it's not ever a practical argument to be taken seriously when you propose a manufacturer is perfect.
.
05-05-2016, 08:36 AM
#69
Three Wheelin'
I've been guilty of this. I should have gotten a baseline on my new to me 997 GTS. But I already had the sharkwerks bypass on the way. I just couldn't wait to get it on the car because the exhaust was so weak I couldn't even wait an extra week to give myself a chance to dyno the car. I'll be making a baseline before future mods. The next stuff will be cargraphic headers and an ecu tune so I will be trying to get a before and after same day/same dyno. Thats about the only way to get reliable data.
I will say, in agreement, that the fact of not having tons owner dyno data for these intakes is a bit suspect of there being gains.
05-05-2016, 08:46 AM
#70
I've been guilty of this. I should have gotten a baseline on my new to me 997 GTS. But I already had the sharkwerks bypass on the way. I just couldn't wait to get it on the car because the exhaust was so weak I couldn't even wait an extra week to give myself a chance to dyno the car. I'll be making a baseline before future mods. The next stuff will be cargraphic headers and an ecu tune so I will be trying to get a before and after same day/same dyno. Thats about the only way to get reliable data.
I will say, in agreement, that the fact of not having tons owner dyno data for these intakes is a bit suspect of there being gains.
I will say, in agreement, that the fact of not having tons owner dyno data for these intakes is a bit suspect of there being gains.
05-05-2016, 10:09 AM
#71
Burning Brakes
I just read this entire thread and i'm still confused as to whether an aftermarket intake is a good choice. Both sides make valid arguments. I guess whether it's "worth it" is all subjective. Everyone has their own preference.
Now, I have some questions for you intake guru's now that i'm here. I have a stock airbox. However, i have a muffler bypass/delete.
1. Since i have an "exhaust", is keeping the stock airbox holding back any air flow? I know an intake will not make any significant HP gains, but will it improve or even out the flow of the air atleast? I've been feeling lately that i have too much exhaust and not enough intake. Could just be all in my head though.
2. I found a crackhead deal on an EVOMS intake. But no matter how good the deal is, i don't want to do anything that may hurt performance. I know that some people are saying that you will not gain any power with an intake, but if it improves airflow a little, i'm ok with that. However, is it possible to LOSE performance with an intake?
Now, I have some questions for you intake guru's now that i'm here. I have a stock airbox. However, i have a muffler bypass/delete.
1. Since i have an "exhaust", is keeping the stock airbox holding back any air flow? I know an intake will not make any significant HP gains, but will it improve or even out the flow of the air atleast? I've been feeling lately that i have too much exhaust and not enough intake. Could just be all in my head though.
2. I found a crackhead deal on an EVOMS intake. But no matter how good the deal is, i don't want to do anything that may hurt performance. I know that some people are saying that you will not gain any power with an intake, but if it improves airflow a little, i'm ok with that. However, is it possible to LOSE performance with an intake?
05-05-2016, 10:16 AM
#72
Three Wheelin'
There are many dyno runs out there wherein buyers, enthusiasts and aftermarket suppliers got gains from new intakes.
None of it matters, because this is a 997 board, so debates about 997 intakes can only be settled by before/after runs with stock and aftermarket.
Even if you get 10 HP from an intake mod, it might very well be way up in the RPM range, and what it does to a (dubious) subjective feel is a whole other story. I've seen cars do a second dyno run at a higher HP because the very act of the first dyno run amounted to what is known as an Italian tune-up. No mods were made.
Peace.
***Most manufacturers quote an improvement and have dyno sheets. At that point, it's up to you to judge their credibility and endorsements. EVOMS is endorsed by Sharkwerks, and I'm okay with that, because Sharkwerks does things like discourage changes to headers, saying they haven't seen any meaningful gains from changing them. So, it's not exactly testimony in a court of law, but get familiar with your vendors and their credibility in the proverbial community.
.
.
None of it matters, because this is a 997 board, so debates about 997 intakes can only be settled by before/after runs with stock and aftermarket.
Even if you get 10 HP from an intake mod, it might very well be way up in the RPM range, and what it does to a (dubious) subjective feel is a whole other story. I've seen cars do a second dyno run at a higher HP because the very act of the first dyno run amounted to what is known as an Italian tune-up. No mods were made.
Peace.
***Most manufacturers quote an improvement and have dyno sheets. At that point, it's up to you to judge their credibility and endorsements. EVOMS is endorsed by Sharkwerks, and I'm okay with that, because Sharkwerks does things like discourage changes to headers, saying they haven't seen any meaningful gains from changing them. So, it's not exactly testimony in a court of law, but get familiar with your vendors and their credibility in the proverbial community.
.
.
05-05-2016, 10:21 AM
#73
Rennlist Member
Your reply ignores key elements of my reply (in which I say Porsche might very well know best, but....).
Also, you accept that HP is left on the table, that it's hard to extract, that development is needed to extract it, and that since that development takes time and resources (human effort), just bolting on 26 HP is expensive.
End of story.
For the record, I might respect efforts from Porsche, Ferrari, et al, but I don't kneel at any of their alters. They are not gods; they are not infallible, and they are limited often by the fact that they have profits and margins to worry about. Whether you accept these realities is (apparently) out of my control.
Explain why the shifter is easily improved by an aftermarket shifter/short-shift component. Porsche knows best, and yet they don't offer a 3500 dollar option box for this upgrade (to compare it to your X51 point that makes my point).
We can go around and around as you cling to this notion that Porsche is.... perfect. If not perfect in base model, then perfect by checking a box (e.g., X51). Your argument is so seriously flawed, you cannot even argue from a position of being wrong, because it's not ever a practical argument to be taken seriously when you propose a manufacturer is perfect.
.
Also, you accept that HP is left on the table, that it's hard to extract, that development is needed to extract it, and that since that development takes time and resources (human effort), just bolting on 26 HP is expensive.
End of story.
For the record, I might respect efforts from Porsche, Ferrari, et al, but I don't kneel at any of their alters. They are not gods; they are not infallible, and they are limited often by the fact that they have profits and margins to worry about. Whether you accept these realities is (apparently) out of my control.
Explain why the shifter is easily improved by an aftermarket shifter/short-shift component. Porsche knows best, and yet they don't offer a 3500 dollar option box for this upgrade (to compare it to your X51 point that makes my point).
We can go around and around as you cling to this notion that Porsche is.... perfect. If not perfect in base model, then perfect by checking a box (e.g., X51). Your argument is so seriously flawed, you cannot even argue from a position of being wrong, because it's not ever a practical argument to be taken seriously when you propose a manufacturer is perfect.
.
I think you are talking about the very very upper range of development, perhaps race applications. I still think Porsche probably knows best how to get there, but they leave for their race teams and other people to figure out. Selling a $300k 911 isn't their goal and probably not in big demand. But, they don't totally ignore this, and do offer the Gt3 and gt3 RS is more HP and budget is less of a concern.
05-05-2016, 10:48 AM
#74
Rennlist Member
I just read this entire thread and i'm still confused as to whether an aftermarket intake is a good choice. Both sides make valid arguments. I guess whether it's "worth it" is all subjective. Everyone has their own preference.
Now, I have some questions for you intake guru's now that i'm here. I have a stock airbox. However, i have a muffler bypass/delete.
1. Since i have an "exhaust", is keeping the stock airbox holding back any air flow? I know an intake will not make any significant HP gains, but will it improve or even out the flow of the air atleast? I've been feeling lately that i have too much exhaust and not enough intake. Could just be all in my head though.
2. I found a crackhead deal on an EVOMS intake. But no matter how good the deal is, i don't want to do anything that may hurt performance. I know that some people are saying that you will not gain any power with an intake, but if it improves airflow a little, i'm ok with that. However, is it possible to LOSE performance with an intake?
Now, I have some questions for you intake guru's now that i'm here. I have a stock airbox. However, i have a muffler bypass/delete.
1. Since i have an "exhaust", is keeping the stock airbox holding back any air flow? I know an intake will not make any significant HP gains, but will it improve or even out the flow of the air atleast? I've been feeling lately that i have too much exhaust and not enough intake. Could just be all in my head though.
2. I found a crackhead deal on an EVOMS intake. But no matter how good the deal is, i don't want to do anything that may hurt performance. I know that some people are saying that you will not gain any power with an intake, but if it improves airflow a little, i'm ok with that. However, is it possible to LOSE performance with an intake?
05-05-2016, 10:56 AM
#75
Rennlist Member
There are many dyno runs out there wherein buyers, enthusiasts and aftermarket suppliers got gains from new intakes.
None of it matters, because this is a 997 board, so debates about 997 intakes can only be settled by before/after runs with stock and aftermarket.
Even if you get 10 HP from an intake mod, it might very well be way up in the RPM range, and what it does to a (dubious) subjective feel is a whole other story. I've seen cars do a second dyno run at a higher HP because the very act of the first dyno run amounted to what is known as an Italian tune-up. No mods were made.
Peace.
***Most manufacturers quote an improvement and have dyno sheets. At that point, it's up to you to judge their credibility and endorsements. EVOMS is endorsed by Sharkwerks, and I'm okay with that, because Sharkwerks does things like discourage changes to headers, saying they haven't seen any meaningful gains from changing them. So, it's not exactly testimony in a court of law, but get familiar with your vendors and their credibility in the proverbial community.
.
.
None of it matters, because this is a 997 board, so debates about 997 intakes can only be settled by before/after runs with stock and aftermarket.
Even if you get 10 HP from an intake mod, it might very well be way up in the RPM range, and what it does to a (dubious) subjective feel is a whole other story. I've seen cars do a second dyno run at a higher HP because the very act of the first dyno run amounted to what is known as an Italian tune-up. No mods were made.
Peace.
***Most manufacturers quote an improvement and have dyno sheets. At that point, it's up to you to judge their credibility and endorsements. EVOMS is endorsed by Sharkwerks, and I'm okay with that, because Sharkwerks does things like discourage changes to headers, saying they haven't seen any meaningful gains from changing them. So, it's not exactly testimony in a court of law, but get familiar with your vendors and their credibility in the proverbial community.
.
.