Might have to try their suggestion; driving position
02-26-2016, 03:56 PM
#16
Nordschleife Master
Where do you position your driver's side mirror? All my life I pointed it to look down the side of the car (which is how I position the passenger one). But an my first DE, I think, I was instructed to point it much further out, more into the blind spot. This reduces overlap between it's view and the rear-view mirror's view. You have to get used to it, because now as you pass items like median walls, they flash in the side mirror. Curious what the instructors here think about this and what they suggest.
Adjust R mirror - Lean your head towards the right over the center console and adjust the right mirror so you barely see the right side of the car, stop, and rotate right just a tiny bit more.
02-26-2016, 04:04 PM
#17
Where do you position your driver's side mirror? All my life I pointed it to look down the side of the car (which is how I position the passenger one). But an my first DE, I think, I was instructed to point it much further out, more into the blind spot. This reduces overlap between it's view and the rear-view mirror's view. You have to get used to it, because now as you pass items like median walls, they flash in the side mirror. Curious what the instructors here think about this and what they suggest.
Done right, if a car is going past you (either side), you will see it go from the rear to the side mirror, with just enough overlap it never disappears- no blind spot. Then as it comes along side, at the same time it goes off the side mirror it comes into your peripheral vision. There is of course still a blind spot. But done right it is too small and close to hide a car. In any case, you always do a head check anyway. Only, with everything right a head check is just a slight turn, none of this craning around you see people doing all the time. Minimal movement maintains awareness. It all goes together.
02-26-2016, 06:05 PM
#19
Just here on RL. Used to do DE, DS and autocross with PNWR. Started out just like everyone else- all the same bad habits, all the same ignorance, all the same conviction that I'm really a good driver who just needs somewhere safe to drive fast without risking a ticket. Thanks to instructors (and with a lot of perseverance) I was able to disabuse myself of all that BS, and go on to developing - this time, for real - the skills I thought I had. Which as far as I know is what everyone- and I mean EVERYONE- goes through. Or those who apply themselves, at any rate.
Continuing development into an instructor just seemed the logical next step. That is also the way its supposed to work in a volunteer organization like PCA. After a while though it sometimes happens that we realize the "student" sitting behind the wheel has about the same level of respect for what he's doing as he has knowledge of it. Which is to say, none. Or imaginary. Which after sitting there while they spin at 90, go off track, or hit the wall- events they can't see coming even though you told them half a dozen times at least, events you can see so clearly you calmly instruct them to put the clutch in at the proper moment during the spin- some of us decide its just not worth it.
Here on RL, well as they say, sticks and stones…. instructing here is WAY safer.
Continuing development into an instructor just seemed the logical next step. That is also the way its supposed to work in a volunteer organization like PCA. After a while though it sometimes happens that we realize the "student" sitting behind the wheel has about the same level of respect for what he's doing as he has knowledge of it. Which is to say, none. Or imaginary. Which after sitting there while they spin at 90, go off track, or hit the wall- events they can't see coming even though you told them half a dozen times at least, events you can see so clearly you calmly instruct them to put the clutch in at the proper moment during the spin- some of us decide its just not worth it.
Here on RL, well as they say, sticks and stones…. instructing here is WAY safer.
02-26-2016, 08:05 PM
#20
The fact you can see this may be the single biggest factor in improving your chances of becoming a better driver. You also need to look around for the best instructors. In the beginning you are so far from skilled that even the least capable one you can find will be an immense help. But you will quickly reach a point where you realize some are much better than others. Do everything you can to get those good ones in the car as often as you can. You will learn more, and faster, and be much less likely to experience an incident. In fact, with the right instructor you will find yourself so focused on mastering the basic skills that you will find yourself going faster without ever having tried to go faster. That's what its all about.
02-29-2016, 06:15 PM
#21
8th Gear
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The fact you can see this may be the single biggest factor in improving your chances of becoming a better driver. You also need to look around for the best instructors. In the beginning you are so far from skilled that even the least capable one you can find will be an immense help. But you will quickly reach a point where you realize some are much better than others. Do everything you can to get those good ones in the car as often as you can. You will learn more, and faster, and be much less likely to experience an incident. In fact, with the right instructor you will find yourself so focused on mastering the basic skills that you will find yourself going faster without ever having tried to go faster. That's what its all about.
I grew up riding motorcycles, and I had the religious experience the first time that I went to a racing school. I had it all wrong. And it explained why I was so exhausted after a "spirited" ride, or a race. But after working with guys who have the experience, you realize that your trial and error, while good for experience; really held you back.
I've only taken one drivers course, but I need to go back for another. I was a decent driver prior because of some military and law enforcement training; but was not even close to what I could be with some effort. I took so much away from the first training that I need to go back for more.
And just because I had one training does not mean that I have a clue how to apply what I got out of it. On top of that, there was too much to remember. It helped to have had a PCNA instructor that first time.
For me, the most profound was how the instructor told me to look through a turn. It was a little bit of a struggle because of old habits born of riding Ducati's. Similar, but the nuances were/are deep.
To that end! I cannot remember what I was told about the bend in the legs. I "think" that I remember, and I'm okay with the hand and back placement; but for some reason, my legs feel off.
Guidance?
02-29-2016, 06:48 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
Incidentally... on a classic air-cooled car that knee bent is more pronounced, smaller subtended angle, more like 120 deg, as those cars require the seat far mor forward. It has to do with seat position and floor hinging pedals.
Last edited by ADias; 02-29-2016 at 10:45 PM. Reason: typo - damn auto correcting
02-29-2016, 09:28 PM
#23
8th Gear
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To adjust the front-to-back seat position, place your left leg on the carpet under the clutch pedal; your leg should be slightly bent at your knee (145-155 degrees). It is not exact, pick that so that when you push the couch to the floor, it feels natural.
Incidentally... on a classic air-cooled car that knee bent is more pronounced, smaller subtended angle, more like 120 deg, as those cars require the seat far mor forward. It has to do with seat position and floor hinging pedals.
Incidentally... on a classic air-cooled car that knee bent is more pronounced, smaller subtended angle, more like 120 deg, as those cars require the seat far mor forward. It has to do with seat position and floor hinging pedals.
Funny thing. I thought that I was hunky dory until I read this thread; and then I felt all out of whack.
I think that's bad *** that you even knew the nuance with the air cooled cars.
Props.
02-29-2016, 10:44 PM
#24
Nordschleife Master
You are not alone... most people I see driving 11s might as well be sitting in a recliner sipping a drink...
03-01-2016, 12:34 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
People sit far back... and in left-hand drive cars, they lean towards the middle. Every car I am behind I see a head leaning towards the middle of the car. After a few hours of this, they then complain about how hard it is to go on long drives.
The seat, the wheel, and even the dead pedal are all your friends if you're actually sitting up in the seat.
But I have a position question for any experts:
I generally work from the 10 & 2 position on the wheel, but from watching a ton of videos, which include the likes of Patrick Long, I do see pros using 9 & 3 and 8 & 4, with 8 & 4 positions being incredibly popular, and I find myself driving 8 & 4 a lot. Opinions?
The seat, the wheel, and even the dead pedal are all your friends if you're actually sitting up in the seat.
But I have a position question for any experts:
I generally work from the 10 & 2 position on the wheel, but from watching a ton of videos, which include the likes of Patrick Long, I do see pros using 9 & 3 and 8 & 4, with 8 & 4 positions being incredibly popular, and I find myself driving 8 & 4 a lot. Opinions?
03-01-2016, 01:39 PM
#26
03-01-2016, 02:00 PM
#27
Nordschleife Master
People sit far back... and in left-hand drive cars, they lean towards the middle. Every car I am behind I see a head leaning towards the middle of the car. After a few hours of this, they then complain about how hard it is to go on long drives.
The seat, the wheel, and even the dead pedal are all your friends if you're actually sitting up in the seat.
But I have a position question for any experts:
I generally work from the 10 & 2 position on the wheel, but from watching a ton of videos, which include the likes of Patrick Long, I do see pros using 9 & 3 and 8 & 4, with 8 & 4 positions being incredibly popular, and I find myself driving 8 & 4 a lot. Opinions?
The seat, the wheel, and even the dead pedal are all your friends if you're actually sitting up in the seat.
But I have a position question for any experts:
I generally work from the 10 & 2 position on the wheel, but from watching a ton of videos, which include the likes of Patrick Long, I do see pros using 9 & 3 and 8 & 4, with 8 & 4 positions being incredibly popular, and I find myself driving 8 & 4 a lot. Opinions?
9 & 3 and no shuffling.
03-01-2016, 03:21 PM
#28
Such sage guidance.
I grew up riding motorcycles, and I had the religious experience the first time that I went to a racing school. I had it all wrong. And it explained why I was so exhausted after a "spirited" ride, or a race. But after working with guys who have the experience, you realize that your trial and error, while good for experience; really held you back.
I've only taken one drivers course, but I need to go back for another. I was a decent driver prior because of some military and law enforcement training; but was not even close to what I could be with some effort. I took so much away from the first training that I need to go back for more.
And just because I had one training does not mean that I have a clue how to apply what I got out of it. On top of that, there was too much to remember. It helped to have had a PCNA instructor that first time.
For me, the most profound was how the instructor told me to look through a turn. It was a little bit of a struggle because of old habits born of riding Ducati's. Similar, but the nuances were/are deep.
To that end! I cannot remember what I was told about the bend in the legs. I "think" that I remember, and I'm okay with the hand and back placement; but for some reason, my legs feel off.
Guidance?
I grew up riding motorcycles, and I had the religious experience the first time that I went to a racing school. I had it all wrong. And it explained why I was so exhausted after a "spirited" ride, or a race. But after working with guys who have the experience, you realize that your trial and error, while good for experience; really held you back.
I've only taken one drivers course, but I need to go back for another. I was a decent driver prior because of some military and law enforcement training; but was not even close to what I could be with some effort. I took so much away from the first training that I need to go back for more.
And just because I had one training does not mean that I have a clue how to apply what I got out of it. On top of that, there was too much to remember. It helped to have had a PCNA instructor that first time.
For me, the most profound was how the instructor told me to look through a turn. It was a little bit of a struggle because of old habits born of riding Ducati's. Similar, but the nuances were/are deep.
To that end! I cannot remember what I was told about the bend in the legs. I "think" that I remember, and I'm okay with the hand and back placement; but for some reason, my legs feel off.
Guidance?
Yes you must look through the turn. In fact your eyes must always be looking where you want to go. Never where you are. In Driver Skills we would use a slalom to teach this. All the novices, they stare right at the cone as they go past it. Then they look up to find the next cone. Too late! You must keep your focus on the line ahead. Cones or traffic nearby, those you can see well enough in your peripheral vision, but you don't look at them! You learn to be aware of them without having to look right at them. This is how you learn to drive the line with precision, just clipping the apex cone even though you never really looked right at it.
This is another one of those things all the trained drivers know and teach but hardly anyone else has the first clue about: you look where you want to go. It can save your life! Proformance Racing owner Don Kitch was driving home one day when a driver asleep at the wheel veered right at him. Don's raced Daytona but said he was never more terrified. He held up an entire DE session to share with us how it was exactly the things we teach every day in DE that saved his life.
But you're right. Its not enough to hear about it. You have to learn to apply it. This means practice. Actually doing it in your car. Over and over again. It takes a lot of repetition to break years of bad habits. In my experience, most people, a year or three of several DE's and auto crosses. Even one session can help. But it takes more to really break the bad habits and fully integrate the new ones.
The new ones that can save your life.
03-01-2016, 05:46 PM
#29
Drifting
I do maybe 3oo kms per year on the track a year.
I do 3o,ooo kms not on the track a year.
Proper driving position is not only important on the track, it important all the time.
I'm with ADias. 9&3 and no shuffling. I even try and keep my thumbs on the outside of the wheel. If you spin the car, the wheel can spin too often breaking your thumb if inside the wheel, depending on your car set up?
My brother in law drives his BMW full gangster style, seat back, reclined, he can only touch the bottom of the wheel. How can you do a full left arm lock, then full right arm lock and center the car for recovery. That traffic out there is way worse than the track. At least at the track everyone is going the same direction. Adopt a proper diving position today for all your motoring. Worried about your air bag going off? Avoid the accident.
I do 3o,ooo kms not on the track a year.
Proper driving position is not only important on the track, it important all the time.
I'm with ADias. 9&3 and no shuffling. I even try and keep my thumbs on the outside of the wheel. If you spin the car, the wheel can spin too often breaking your thumb if inside the wheel, depending on your car set up?
My brother in law drives his BMW full gangster style, seat back, reclined, he can only touch the bottom of the wheel. How can you do a full left arm lock, then full right arm lock and center the car for recovery. That traffic out there is way worse than the track. At least at the track everyone is going the same direction. Adopt a proper diving position today for all your motoring. Worried about your air bag going off? Avoid the accident.
03-01-2016, 06:11 PM
#30
Yeah, some people do the thumb thing. Probably I'd do it too, if I were about to smash into something. Clutch in, brake in, thumbs out. Until then its so much more efficient to use them. This guy here for instance, he doesn't seem too concerned about it.