997 GTS worth the premium?
02-28-2015 | 08:50 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,859
Likes: 47
From: ..............
Yes I did drive them back to back. At Thunderhill last March, 3 mile loop. PDK Coupe vs PDK Coupe. To be fair my car (at left) has a center muffler delete (minus 18 pounds) and widebody rear rims.
We can disagree on some of this Beden... it's just a forum discussion... all good!!!...
Last edited by golfnutintib; 03-01-2015 at 12:19 AM.
02-28-2015 | 10:14 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 322
Likes: 1
From: PNW
Well, thanks (I think). I'd have been happy with GR but I promised my daughter she could pick out the color - although not giving her any guidance cost me an extra $5,500 for PTS - that'll teach me (but it was money well spent). (I'm hoping that the 997.2 GTS turns out to be a niche car like the 964 RS America - not as an investment but just to have something that, aside from color, isn't very common - only 2,656 coupes were made for world-wide distribution.)
02-28-2015 | 10:18 PM
#33
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,605
Likes: 65
From: North Carolina
My take on GTS vs Carrera S in 997.2 models...
Widebody *** on rear drive GTS is THE main advantage
LSD standard on GTS is a secondary advantage (you don't find LSD's often on CS's...yes there is aftermarket for this...and conventional wisdom is factory LSD is weak)
Widebody *** on rear drive GTS is THE main advantage
LSD standard on GTS is a secondary advantage (you don't find LSD's often on CS's...yes there is aftermarket for this...and conventional wisdom is factory LSD is weak)
02-28-2015 | 11:18 PM
#34
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 15,358
Likes: 183
From: Tampa
I'd like to make some corrections on a few things:
LSD was not standard on GTS...you had to order it sepertate or get the sport PASM for LSD.
Center Locks are not a performance part for track rat GT3. Center Locks are a marketing idea from Porsche trying to be different. They offer no performance advantage for GT3's. They are different and can be a pain until you get use to them. There are plenty of wheels on market for GTS....any Trubo or GT3RS wheels will fit and lots of,choices out there.
GTS was offered in Carrera colors
I do not see your stated $20-25k price difference from C2S cars. I've been researching as I'm getting ready to list my GTS later this summer/fall...I wish this was true. ;-)
A GTS has more than 1% performance advantage than a CS.
I can tell you hate the GTS but as someone who's owned both a 09 Carrera S with the standard 9a1 w/PdK and a GTS w/PDK and driven them plenty I fell I can tell the differences.
The GTS is the pinnacle of the Carrera series.
LSD was not standard on GTS...you had to order it sepertate or get the sport PASM for LSD.
Center Locks are not a performance part for track rat GT3. Center Locks are a marketing idea from Porsche trying to be different. They offer no performance advantage for GT3's. They are different and can be a pain until you get use to them. There are plenty of wheels on market for GTS....any Trubo or GT3RS wheels will fit and lots of,choices out there.
GTS was offered in Carrera colors
I do not see your stated $20-25k price difference from C2S cars. I've been researching as I'm getting ready to list my GTS later this summer/fall...I wish this was true. ;-)
A GTS has more than 1% performance advantage than a CS.
I can tell you hate the GTS but as someone who's owned both a 09 Carrera S with the standard 9a1 w/PdK and a GTS w/PDK and driven them plenty I fell I can tell the differences.
The GTS is the pinnacle of the Carrera series.
My take on GTS vs Carrera S in 997.2 models...
Widebody *** on rear drive GTS is THE main advantage
LSD standard on GTS is a secondary advantage (you don't find LSD's often on CS's...yes there is aftermarket for this...and conventional wisdom is factory LSD is weak)
Centerlocks are a HUGE disadvantage -- total PITA, and limits choices of wheels, really doesn't belong on this car at all...this is not a track rat GT3, so let's be real...
Limited color choices are a significant, secondary disadvantage - only white would appeal to me...silver and black are not right for any purportedly 'performance-oriented' 911 IMHO
$20-25K price difference is a disadvantage, so does it pay for the rarity that is cared about by hardcore Porschephiles (99.87% of the drivers out there could give a sh-t)? Each of us would need to decide. Resale differential after a few more years not really significant.
Power difference is negligible. If you use the car in a way in which such a minor HP bump at redline makes a real difference to you, you should be in a GT3 anyway.
OP said 90-10 road/track car. A good PDK CS with the right tires would provide 99% the performance of a GTS, maybe 100%. The rest are intangibles such as pride of ownership/rarity etc etc.
Widebody *** on rear drive GTS is THE main advantage
LSD standard on GTS is a secondary advantage (you don't find LSD's often on CS's...yes there is aftermarket for this...and conventional wisdom is factory LSD is weak)
Centerlocks are a HUGE disadvantage -- total PITA, and limits choices of wheels, really doesn't belong on this car at all...this is not a track rat GT3, so let's be real...
Limited color choices are a significant, secondary disadvantage - only white would appeal to me...silver and black are not right for any purportedly 'performance-oriented' 911 IMHO
$20-25K price difference is a disadvantage, so does it pay for the rarity that is cared about by hardcore Porschephiles (99.87% of the drivers out there could give a sh-t)? Each of us would need to decide. Resale differential after a few more years not really significant.
Power difference is negligible. If you use the car in a way in which such a minor HP bump at redline makes a real difference to you, you should be in a GT3 anyway.
OP said 90-10 road/track car. A good PDK CS with the right tires would provide 99% the performance of a GTS, maybe 100%. The rest are intangibles such as pride of ownership/rarity etc etc.
Last edited by mdrums; 02-28-2015 at 11:34 PM.
02-28-2015 | 11:49 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,859
Likes: 47
From: ..............
I'd like to make some corrections on a few things:
LSD was not standard on GTS...you had to order it sepertate or get the sport PASM for LSD.
Center Locks are not a performance part for track rat GT3. Center Locks are a marketing idea from Porsche trying to be different. They offer no performance advantage for GT3's. They are different and can be a pain until you get use to them. There are plenty of wheels on market for GTS....any Trubo or GT3RS wheels will fit and lots of,choices out there.
GTS was offered in Carrera colors
I do not see your stated $20-25k price difference from C2S cars. I've been researching as I'm getting ready to list my GTS later this summer/fall...I wish this was true. ;-)
A GTS has more than 1% performance advantage than a CS.
I can tell you hate the GTS but as someone who's owned both a 09 Carrera S with the standard 9a1 w/PdK and a GTS w/PDK and driven them plenty I fell I can tell the differences.
The GTS is the pinnacle of the Carrera series.
LSD was not standard on GTS...you had to order it sepertate or get the sport PASM for LSD.
Center Locks are not a performance part for track rat GT3. Center Locks are a marketing idea from Porsche trying to be different. They offer no performance advantage for GT3's. They are different and can be a pain until you get use to them. There are plenty of wheels on market for GTS....any Trubo or GT3RS wheels will fit and lots of,choices out there.
GTS was offered in Carrera colors
I do not see your stated $20-25k price difference from C2S cars. I've been researching as I'm getting ready to list my GTS later this summer/fall...I wish this was true. ;-)
A GTS has more than 1% performance advantage than a CS.
I can tell you hate the GTS but as someone who's owned both a 09 Carrera S with the standard 9a1 w/PdK and a GTS w/PDK and driven them plenty I fell I can tell the differences.
The GTS is the pinnacle of the Carrera series.
However, also a matter of fact is how many non-white, or silver/gray, or black GTS's are actually out there. Please have a look on eBay and on AutoTrader...I did. 26 out of 27 listings are white, silver/gray or black. Lone exceptions I am aware of are one red Cabrio and the yellow coupe on this board. (I'd like to buy a well kept, low miles Guards Red GTS 2wd coupe, without centerlocks, and with sport PASM preferably ...$80k cash in hand... can you point me to one?)
.2 CS's are asking high $50's to mid $60's... GTS's are asking high $70's to high $80's... yes they are just asking prices.
Rest is a matter of opinion. Mine can be different than yours, yes? I don't hate any Porsche car, much less a GTS, which I admire (and have driven, on road and on track as well, although I would think you are a better driver than me)... GTS is the only way to get a wide *** on a 2WD 997 gen car (RS excepted of course) ...I am just discussing my take here, as my first words in my post clearly stated, in response to the OP's query...
"GTS is the Pinnacle of Carrera series"... of course it is (especially since you have one...
). I am not attacking your choice of a GTS any more than you need to defend it. What we are discussing here are the tangible differences between a GTS and a CS -- the degree of actual performance vs. image enhancement in what defines 'Pinnacle'. Cheers!
Last edited by golfnutintib; 03-01-2015 at 03:29 AM.
03-01-2015 | 12:03 AM
#37
Instructor
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 179
Likes: 1
From: NJ Shore
So what would you estimate the % performance difference to be?
Purely from the numbers it seems practically same but I am very curious to learn drivers of both point of view, as I had recently thought of potential upgrade to GTS at some point. I certainly won't be able to discern very small levels of performance difference on a test drive.
Purely from the numbers it seems practically same but I am very curious to learn drivers of both point of view, as I had recently thought of potential upgrade to GTS at some point. I certainly won't be able to discern very small levels of performance difference on a test drive.
03-01-2015 | 12:16 AM
#38
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 15,358
Likes: 183
From: Tampa
So what would you estimate the % performance difference to be?
Purely from the numbers it seems practically same but I am very curious to learn drivers of both point of view, as I had recently thought of potential upgrade to GTS at some point. I certainly won't be able to discern very small levels of performance difference on a test drive.
Purely from the numbers it seems practically same but I am very curious to learn drivers of both point of view, as I had recently thought of potential upgrade to GTS at some point. I certainly won't be able to discern very small levels of performance difference on a test drive.
Also it's been mentioned that the GTS is the only way to,get a rwd wide body....not so...the GT3RS is also a rwd wide body
03-01-2015 | 12:39 AM
#39
Instructor
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 179
Likes: 1
From: NJ Shore
03-01-2015 | 12:54 AM
#40
Racer
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 381
Likes: 45
Even if you only had $1500 to spend on tires, a good set of aggressive summer tires on a C2S would probably be quicker than a stock GTS on older mediocre tires. Also, 15k can pay for a lot of HPDE days... which would go a long way in terms of increasing driver skill and enjoyment of the car (not sure of your level).
03-01-2015 | 01:13 AM
#41
Rennlist Member
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,859
Likes: 47
From: ..............
Well I think you need to elaborate on what you mean by "better." A C2S with 15k in suspension mods will certainly lap faster than a bone stock GTS unless you plan to only hit the drag strip. However, the more extreme you go with your suspension setup, the worse it'll be for daily driving. If a stock C2S/GTS suspension already feels as firm as you would want to go on the street, then get the GTS and leave it be as its a great package out of the box.
Even if you only had $1500 to spend on tires, a good set of aggressive summer tires on a C2S would probably be quicker than a stock GTS on older mediocre tires. Also, 15k can pay for a lot of HPDE days... which would go a long way in terms of increasing driver skill and enjoyment of the car (not sure of your level).
Even if you only had $1500 to spend on tires, a good set of aggressive summer tires on a C2S would probably be quicker than a stock GTS on older mediocre tires. Also, 15k can pay for a lot of HPDE days... which would go a long way in terms of increasing driver skill and enjoyment of the car (not sure of your level).
For a .2 CS OR GTS -- don't think you want to go any stiffer on the suspension than stock if you plan to DD the car. Even PASM in Normal is firm, especially in the rear. Not uncomfortable mind you, but definitely firm.
Regarding track performance, in order of importance, assuming OP's choice of GTS or CS:
1) Driver experience and skill
GAP
2) Tire compound, inflation pressures
BIG GAP
3) Track coilovers
HUGE GAP
4) Power train mods
One side note on #2 -- on the narrow body CS you CAN run the stock 997 wide body rims (with significantly less wheel offset) and get functionally a wider track AND more rubber on the tarmac... I do that on my CS...no issues
03-01-2015 | 08:22 AM
#43
Banned
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,251
Likes: 21
The GTS is awesome and I'd love to own one. The only down side I could see to some and it would not apply to me is this. The GTS is the top of the line for the 997 series and always gets a heavy premium but suffers a bit when the next iteration is launched - ie the 991. I'm not suggesting there is no premium but buyers now weigh the cost/benefit between the top of the line older version versus an entry level newer model. This is more of an issue with those who turn cars over more frequently; I don't worry too much about the value of my car or what I have into it because it is a hobby.
