Spinout

...and pro kart racers, and F1 drivers...

LexVan

This is a post in the 997 Forum, not the DE Racing Forum.

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996tnz

Tested this again just now on my commute - mine does still pull engine power if the brake is applied for more than a second or so with the throttle already applied (even with PSM and ABS failed to completely off), so my tuner did not manage to defeat this. I've obviously just learned to avoid accidentally triggering it. Mostly wanted it killed for track work but - as you pointed out - it is a particularly horrible feeling on street, eg if you're turning through an intersection, looking to accelerate, then suddenly there's no one home in the engine room.

Iceter

Two-foot driving may or may not increase your times on the track. I don't know too many people who race automatics. If you really raced, you'd know how to heel-toe and you wouldn't need your left foot anyway.

I was taught that driving an automatic with two feet was very bad form--especially if you also occasionally drive a manual transmission car where you need to use your right foot to brake.

Since you shouldn't drive with your foot resting on the brake pedal, in a panic stop, your left foot would have to come off the floor and then push the brake. Your right foot is closer and already at the right height so I don't see how left foot braking could be faster.

All in all, it's just a bad idea championed by people who don't know any better.

Wayne Smith

Clutch pedal = Lots of force and full travel as quickly as possible (at least on the push and double clutch).

Brake pedal equals controlled light force and controlled travel.

Football player vs ballet dancer.

Muscle use leads to muscle memory. If you drive both Manual and Auto transmissions my guess is you may be setting yourself up for an embarrassment if you left foot brake.

I speak from a personal experience when I was first learning to drive on the street nearly 50 years ago. It is amazing how fast you can scare the crap out of your passengers and the tailgater behind you!

I've opted to never left foot brake again.

If you drive carts, then you must left foot brake. So be it.

Anybody else ever have trouble adapting between vehicles?

SpeedyD

Respectfully disagree only on the point that left foot braking may or may not improve track times... If someone has PDK (or even tip) then left foot braking almost certainly will improve track times / speed. Fractions of a second matter for setting laps, and it's the reason any pro driver that is not operating a clutch (and some that do) will be left foot braking.

Agreed that it could be problematic if someone is switching between clutch and clutch-less cars. But for track times, I'm pretty certain that it is essential.

Also, and while this is showing my lack of true "cred" ... when I race on a sim (gran turismo) I always left foot brake when not using a stick shift car (i.e., using paddles). I use it to trail brake and just generally to be faster... I drive stick in the real world and have never, ever mixed up technique... Similar to the concept in drumming where I use double bass pedals, but also sometimes need to operate a hi-hat pedal... In all my years of drumming I've never mixed these up. I think once you build muscle memory at a certain level of complexity / dexterity, you aren't all that likely to mess up...

nzskater

Interesting comment. I blame Gran Turismo for my current (seemingly old timey based on the comments) affliction. I'm not uncomfortable admitting that I drove virtually before getting behind the wheel of a real (manual) car. Playstation generation and all that I guess. In hind sight, real cars are of course much more fun, although I'm tempted to invest in a current gen racing sim setup...

Appreciate the constructive responses, glad I'm not the only one dying my hair silver.

Wayne Smith

My F250, 400h, and C4S are all automatics. The likelihood that I will go back to a manual (other than maybe an out of USA rental is minimal).

I had my mind pretty well set at the start of this. A bunch of you have me wondering if I should change my style now.

I don't play drums. Video games for me started at Pong. But it seems like at least a few of you have mastered the art of either or.

It's a new day. Hmmmm.

SpeedyD

Maybe I'm an in-betweener for virtual vs. real driving background... I started on manual (POS '89 Ford Tempo w/about ... 89hp) in parking lots at an age I won't disclose on here... Then I flip flopped between driving autos and manual cars.

Gran Turismo w/the fancy setup is very recent, and adopting that style in the game took practice. I have also used the game to better (and safely) develop rev matching and heel/toe technique. I can say from direct experience that those translate to real-world driving, with some adjustment for brake feel, g-force impact (you don't get moved around in a game!), etc... But not much different from my trying heel/toe in my Roadster vs. my 911 (much, much, much easier in the roadster... in fact, easier to execute in the roadster than in Gran Turismo).

For daily driving, I don't know if I'd adopt left foot braking if I had an automatic car. I do NOT tail gate, though I drive in a "spirited" manner, and have no real need to trail brake on public roads, etc... If I were tracking my car, however, I would certainly adopt that technique since in the game I lap much more consistently, and faster, using left foot braking.

SpeedyD

Just to add, I only mention drumming because it is 100% pure muscle memory. My point is that once someone practices the techniques enough, in my experience it is not too likely that even in a panic situation, there will be a mix up... that said, hard to "panic" while drumming and the consequences of a mis-hit are (usually) much less severe!

FFSstavros

I just saw this a few days ago... how appropriate.

Wayne Smith

Thanks for this video. With the left foot to the right of the clutch peddle I can see the purpose and the sensitivity.

I adequately embarrassed myself in my youth when I treated the brake like a clutch that I never went back to re-evaluate.

I am guessing that this is a part of what we do to keep our motors on the far side of the rear axle. I never worrried about trailing braking with mid engine cars. And on bikes it was a shift in the body to alter grip between ends.

This thread gives cause to rethink driving methodology. A good learn!

Time to ask for a set of drums and a video game for Xmas I guess!

Iceter

Let's assume for the sake of argument that left foot braking is a viable method for reducing lap times. I have no idea. Like 99.9% of all drivers and 99% of all 911 owners, I don't track my car. The OP didn't ask that. He drives that way all the time and the fact is that left foot braking is not appropriate for driving on the street.

Is it something to get wound up about? No. I only respond because like LexVan, I was taught not to do it and all my life, the people I saw doing it were terrible drivers--most of them women or the elderly.

The driver's ed and parental advice given to me those many years ago went like this: you shouldn't do it on the street unless you like flashing your brake lights at the cars behind you and wearing out your brake pads more quickly. And it's still a fact that if you rest your left foot on the floor, your braking response will be faster if you use your right foot in a panic stop. I guess if your grandmother taught you how to drive her '58 Buick, you might have been told otherwise (I kid, I kid).

I'll see your video and raise you one. Here's Gan-san taking a prototype S2000 around the Nurburgring and I don't believe his left foot touches the brake once.

Frankly, watching that first driver move his left foot under, around, between and over the pedals made me cringe. That's alot of opportunity for getting your feet twisted up in the pedals. ...And even while promoting left foot braking, he was using heel-toeing!

SpeedyD

Agreed not something to get wound up about. But interesting to discuss and this (in the context of the OP's question) is a relevant forum... all good fun!

I didn't watch the video, but still believe the technique (left foot braking) is superior. Most drivers at the highest level that don't do it, likely don't because of old habits and the difficulty of fully changing to the technique at that (top 0.0001%) level of mastery. Heel-toe is fully compatible with left foot braking, just under different phases of braking/turning. I'm a virtual, not real, "racer" but I will use heel-toe to decelerate while downshifting before entering a turn, and then left foot brake to rebalance / redistribute the weight of the car while in the same gear going through a turn... it materially helps with controlling under vs. oversteer. Of course, much easier to do just the left foot part, without heel-toe, when using paddles. Obviously there are heel/toe techniques that can approximate this but once you get away from having a clutch, it is simply more efficient to have the left foot do one job and the right foot the other.

I liken it to guitar playing (there, another music analogy) or pretty much any sport out there. Over time efficiencies develop through constantly building upon technique and technology available. While the art can be debated, the progress in technique and approach cannot. Guitarists that use four fingers vs. those who avoid using their pinky have higher potential capabilities from a purely technical perspective. Tell a player that has been playing three finger technique for 20+ years to now start playing with his pinky, and he will likely be slower and less adept than he was before. It might take years to get to where he was at the inferior technique. I suppose there are still high level racers that are relatively young that don't left foot brake... not sure why they would learn this way in the current era, as that technique has been established and honed... but then again there are also modern athletes with poor throwing technique, swinging technique, etc, that get the job done...

Again, my caveat to all this is road driving vs. track driving. I agree there are potential pitfalls to trying this haphazard as a road driving technique. For those that want to maximize lap times and are in a learning phase, then left foot braking with PDK/tip transmissions, learned correctly, is likely to be superior.

If someone has honed left foot braking, they won't lack power for panic stops etc, so not an issue there for road use either, and nothing inherently more dangerous about it... it is the transition from one technique to the other that is probably most fraught with risk...

nzskater

Really enjoying the discussion so far. Many interesting points and some I hadn't considered. Also curious to see the amount of ageism that is showing through. If you only considered the two videos posted it would indicate that the opposite is true, given the non left foot braking driver is in what looks like a 15 yr old video and is most likely a silver fox by now!

It would be inappropriate for driving on the street if my foot/eye coordination was so terrible that I found myself depressing both pedals at once. Luckily I have the gift of not being physically impaired (other than a few lingering skateboard/snowboard injuries), I guess for the older amongst us this poses an issue.

I didn't have the luxury of formal driving training, so was never told it wasn't acceptable. I'm yet to wear through rotors or pads (only driven my car 20,000km) and haven't had any driver rage behind me, so can only assume I'm not unintentionally depressing the brake pedal.

Another question that I'm sure will generate some feedback: do you ever drive with ONLY your left foot? I have occasionally found myself doing so on long, tiring trips to give my right foot a break for 15 minutes or so...