951Pearly

2009 was one of the most significant updates to the Porsche lineup. The new DFI engines, PDK, and the electronically controlled PTM AWD system.

I have a 997.1 C2 and wondering how well the 997.2 cars do on track in comparison. Many people say the C4S is not as good on the track but that's not what the lap times show. Those of you that track the C4S regularly how do you feel about the bit of extra weight in comparison to how well it comes out of corners? My understanding is it's also more neutral mid corner.

The Cayman S seems to be the track weapon of choice in the events I've attended. How does an AWD 911 compare to the mid engine Cayman S on the track?

I'm just looking for experienced opinions on dry track driving. Not concerned with wet or snow. I know I can also test drive these cars but I'm sure a visit to the track would not be part of the test drive haha.

Thanks in advance

SpeedyD

My 2 cents. C4S can probably lap a touch faster, though this is likely track-dependent... Driver skills will matter more.

More enjoyable on a track for using throttle modulation to change turn-in, etc? Likely C2S. Cayman S is likely track weapon of choice in part due to price of the car and the balance will make it more predictable.

Weight difference will almost certainly not be noticeable as it's about 100 lbs (roughly same as weight penalty for having PDK vs. stick) and you'll have slightly better balance in the C4S.

My input is purely based on having driven these cars on the road, the numbers (hard to argue the "maths"), and what I've heard from others who have tracked -- and I'm sure we'll hear directly from some of those latter soon!

I suspect the key question is, what is your goal on the track? Tail out fun (C2S or Cayman S), lap times (C4S or C2S), ability to lap in different conditions (C4S), or ability to go 9/10ths or 10/10ths and remain in better control (Cayman S).

951Pearly

Thanks for your input SpeedyD!

To me tail out fun is not priority. Predictability and being able to go 9/10 or 10/10 with fine control is more important. The Cayman S is probably better for this.

I've actually gotten a chance to track the new Cayman S and Boxster S on the track and I find they oversteer on corner entry, many reviewers have also complained about this. People that like tail out fun enjoy it but it's not confidence inspiring. I also drove the new 991 on track and that was very easy to drive and predictable the best car I've ever driven actually, rear end stability was uncanny. 991 is way out of my range though and it does not have the same tactility in the steering.

The 987.2 Cayman S is lauded as one of the best cars on the track and MT has named it as their best drivers cars in 2009. In other comparisons it even beat out the GT3 in being a "driver's car" which I think may be a stretch. The new Cayman is significantly more oversteery and not as confidence inspiring compared to the old one.

Hella-Buggin'

I'm sure that you could easily dial the steering issues into check with an alignment.

Canyonrs4

I have a few track days (20 or so) on my C4S and I love it, very predictable and the all wheel drive is not in your face at all, in fact I really do not notice it. The times say a lot, the C4S is a hair faster than the C2S and the wide body is a must have!

Everyone talks about the throttle steer/modulation I find it the same on the 997.2 all wheel system as the C2S. You can trail brake deep into the corner get the car to rotate and accelerate adjusting the line with the throttle ... I do not see the downside, but that may just be me.

I have driven the new Cayman and it is far easier to drive fast, you point it and it goes, just hoping in the car and I was as fast as my C4S, It is a compelling track car. If you drive on the street and track I just like the C4S better as a all around car/ride.

Bottom line- you can't go wrong with any of the above, get one you like and drive the socks off it.

utkinpol

Question does not make much sense in this verbiage.

Fastest 997 chassis is a wide body rear axle drive car. Those are gt3 rs and gt2. C4s has wider body too but extra weight and weak street motor.

Cayman can be made a killer car if you invest a ton into track build and swap out weak stock motor for GTS powerplant and tune it into 410-420hp.

If you look for a track only car - buy a dedicated track car, tow vehicle and trailer. It is really best possible way to go. What kind of a car it will be - it matters much less than you think. Spec miata is a perfect track car. M36 nasa gts4 car is also perfect. Dual use cars like mine costs more to build and more to operate but i can drive it to the track and back. It is same reason why people buy gt3 cars. Any 997 car shares same chassis and can be built to be fast on track. Engine means much less in this than properly done suspension so realistically best way is to get cheapest rear axle c2 or c2s car and then after $20k or so you will have a decent track car. With gt3 car you will pay more up front but will not need to put more into mods.

Most important thing here - if you want to drive on track - get anyncar and learn to drive it. Buying fastest racer does not mean you will pass everybody. Just get a car and learn drive it at the level that makes you happy. There will always be somebody who will have faster car or better driver in a cheaper car who will pass you. It is not important.

If you want specifically a track built porsche car you can race - look at spec boxster cars, look at spec 996 cars. There are tons of options. Well built spec 996 car will be as fast as stock 997 gt3 or even faster.

Ezkill

I think with that change it's probably a more accurate statement. However, that's subjective and dependant on the person. I do not find AWD cars to be as fun. I have a very high horsepower AWD car...it gets the least use of them all.

It's certainly a different experience. Some people can't get enough of it and some people hate it. I really think that's what it comes down to.

951Pearly

I am not interested in a race car. I want a car that works on the road and is particularly enjoyable on the track.

My question is directed towards those that have driven the listed vehicles on the track to get their impressions. Clearly improving driver skill is most important for track driving but that has nothing to do with my question.

Put a 997 GTS engine in a Cayman? It would make much more sense to buy one of those cars and track them. You will waste time and money for minimal gain if you're just trying to have fun on the track.

The Cayman S with PDK seems to make track day sense as it has enough power and is so well balanced. I need to find a way to test drive it on a track.

david

Depending on where you are located you may be able to get in on a Porsche Road Show event. Stop in at a dealer and begin shopping for a Cayman S and inquire.

I drove a '14 Cayman S w/PDK and it was just as mentioned above: intuitively fast and would turn in instantly. I ended up buying a '10 C4S because of my other requirements, one of which wasn't going fast on the track.

Good luck and have fun in your search!

P.S. I also drove '14 C4S & C2S on the same track (Fontana) and while they were few ticks quicker, the CS was able to turn better particularly off a not-so-perfect line.

Hatzenbach

I track my 997.2 C4S regularly and am loving it. I have never driven a 997.2 C2S on the track so I can't compare.
BUT I can tell you one thing: if it is a wet track day, the C4S is absolutely unbeatable. I had one track day in the rain so far and drove circles around all GT2/3 in my group.
The additional grip the all wheel drive gives you in wet conditions is simply awesome,

Hella-Buggin'

But wait there's more....
Isn't the AWD Cayman coming soon?

I think you're, luckily, in a position of "can't go wrong" here. all three options are great cars and will give you an excellent day at the track. Buy the car that makes the most sense for you as a street car where you will spend most of your time in it.

Personally, I like the challenge of the rear wheel drive 911. I like having to develop strategies for getting around the track faster because of the laws of physics against you.
Some don't like that aspect and would rather get in a car that is more balanced but I like having that rear weight and power scoot me around.

FullThrottle64

Absolutely.

M36 nasa gts4 car is also perfect. [/quote]

I disagree about as strongly as is possible. NO street-based car is a "perfect track car". A pure racecar built from a tube frame or carbon tub is a real track car. They are easier to work on, more cost-effective, handle better, and don't suffer from the various trade-offs in street car design. The attached photo is a "perfect track car" - a pure racecar that has no compromises for street use and/or regulatory garbage that gets in the way of driving.

stronbl

I drive my '10 C4S on the track and enjoy it very much. It is very capable and competitive with C2S. Although it's AWD, it is still quite biased toward rear drive. I think it is more neutral in the turns but you cannot forget it is a rear engine car or you will loose the back end quickly. I find the AWD allows me to be faster on turn exit because I can start my exit acceleration sooner but I can definitely feel the added weight in the front end on turn in. And as noted above, on a wet track it is really a blast (with rain tires). I have about 5,500 track miles on it for reference.

utkinpol

"Pure race car" is as perfect as a round ideal horse in vacuum.

For $60k or so one can buy ariel atom. It is nice fun racing platform but not nearly enough of them around to run against one another. And it is no much fun to drive a lonely single fastest car in the group. Fun is to play catch.

There are 2 combinations of factors you want to think about and that was why i say those miata and e36/e46 based racers are perfect. They are very cheap to own and maintain. There is ton of resources and support available for both platforms. And there is ton of competition available, people in same cars you can run against.

As you will gain experience you will see this tendency - drivers who have ton of experience do not take their new shiny expensive cars to the track. An abstract $30k can buy a well sorted gts4 e36 based car.

If one wants specifically a 997 series p-car and plans to do more than 4-5 track days per season i will repeat same thing - get older 997.1 gt3 car and enjoy it. Right now it makes more sense fnancially. In 2009 it was cheaper to do what i did - to pick up base low optioned c2 car and replace its entire suspension, flash ecu, replace cats, and in thisnform it runs decently fast in corners still losing on straight acceleration to most other cars. But it is fun to drive and is slightly cheaper to operate than gt3.

But i can tell now - if i knew up front how much work it would take to make it more or less competitive i would start with a gt3 car donor, not c2.

C4 car compared to c2 will have complications during suspension rebuild IMHO as stock gt3 LCAs will have problems to be installed in front, unless you will manually remove entire front assembly for axle drive turning c4 into c2.

utkinpol

Sure. It is exactly what i do, i have no time and no space for trailer to deal with a pure racer.

One thing i have to tell you up front - never take to a track a car you cannot afford to leave at the track. At last event i went to one relatively new car was totaled, and ne brand new m3 car lost a motor.

So, if we speak from least money to top money, may be a bit of not in correct order - you can use any of those as a starter donor car in full stock trim: miata, old m46 m3, 996 c2 p-car, z6 vette, 997.1 c2/c2s p-car, nissan gt-r, 997.2 cars, 997.1 gt3, 997.2 gt3 or rs cars.

Each street car will require different amount of minimal effort to make it able to survive track abuse without increasng risk to lose it to unreasnable level. None of those cars except of gt3 breed in a stock trim will be very fast. Any of those cars can be made insanely fast but it will take $20k-$30k of additional effort.

If you are not a mechanic and want a 'can do it all' package - go with any gt3 car, 997.1 or 997.2. It has higher cost to buy into but much less subsequent costs to modify it.

Next best car in my list is lotus. I like its motor, it is built well, you can do a lot on that platform. Then it is street porsches, lower buy into cost but there you look into work to deal with motor, prevent oil starvation, rebuild suspension, alter brakes, a lot of $. Then you have vettes, a huge potential and even more $$$$ to spend, but well built z06 will smoke stock 997.1 gt3 rs car.

For fast caymans google BGB DFI conversion. Stock crocs are easier to drive than 997 cars but they are slower. Still, stock cayman r is a fun car and may be more than enough for plenty of track fun. But it is a 2 seater and it is not a 911 .

Stripped racing build from a E46 m3 car is bit slower than gt3 rs but faster than my heavy non stripped modded C2 car. Non stripped m46 with altered suspension and aero package is slower than my car but faster than new 997.2 c2s. There are a lot of parameters and moving parts in all this. I highly advise you not to think what is the fastest car you should buy.

If you tell me your start budget and amount an annual budget you can write off on this hobby, meaning you can afford a 100% loss after drivng this car into a wall on a track - i can tell you what may work best for you.

Pdk or no pdk is a personal preference.