997 carrera S problem
08-29-2014, 02:21 PM
#46
I understand Tom...the only issue with that premise is if there were no used Porsche demand (buyers looking for previously owned cars) we would all have worthless cars.
And, how many folks bought NEW 996 vehicles & had them die due to engine failure? There was no guarantee there.
It's unfortunate that the OP is in this position...regardless of the problem.
And, how many folks bought NEW 996 vehicles & had them die due to engine failure? There was no guarantee there.
It's unfortunate that the OP is in this position...regardless of the problem.
Tom
08-29-2014, 03:10 PM
#47
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
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In 1997, Porsche released its new engine design in the Boxster. That along with many other pieces parts, is shared across the then entire line. Weideking brought in Toyota.... the story is well told... they like all the other car companies in the world, drove uniqueness out. The engine is the fundamentally the same in all cars except GT3s and Turbos. When you pay more, you expect to get something different, but you are not, the same fundamental design. Back then, the 911s and Boxsters all shared the same front ends... all interchangeable parts.
By the way, the "word" back then was the new engines were to be in the GT3s and Turbos but when the failures started to occur, they used the old blocks.
There are historians on the board who can correct my errors, but that is what I understand is the story.
Peace
Bruce in Philly ("Debbie Downer")
08-29-2014, 03:17 PM
#48
I'm glad there are plenty of people who think that way. Keeps the supply of used ones flowing. The original owner of my '05 C2 paid $89K for it. 4 years and 20K miles later I paid $46K for it. I could replace the engine today for $26K if worst came to worst, and still be $17K ahead of what he lost in depreciation having bought it new.
08-29-2014, 06:49 PM
#49
RL Community Team
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Look all, I am sorry I am such a downer about this but I feel compelled for some reason to let it all out. If I was a young person stretching my dollars to buy my first Porsche, I would want to know this stuff.
Note that I drove my Boxster S for a few years worried that my first engine could be a grenade. These things were failing left and right in the beginning. Bang. Then I drove on the second feeling the same way. In all 12 years of wondering with a real experience. I did not let this stop my enjoyment of the car. I could have dumped it, ran away, or whatever but I enjoyed the hell out of that car. I put 197K miles on it in all!!! That says something about how much I loved that car.
Even after two blown engines, I buy another!!! OK, maybe I am not too smart, but I enjoy the brand and really can't find anything out there close to it. Yes it did bother me, but not all that much. And remember, the odds are with you. Porsche lessened the odds year after year although they never fixed all the modes simply because fundamentally, it wasn't a race-tested design completed when the company was near failure (IMHO).
They are still fantastic cars. Just beware and go into ownership eyes wide open.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
Note that I drove my Boxster S for a few years worried that my first engine could be a grenade. These things were failing left and right in the beginning. Bang. Then I drove on the second feeling the same way. In all 12 years of wondering with a real experience. I did not let this stop my enjoyment of the car. I could have dumped it, ran away, or whatever but I enjoyed the hell out of that car. I put 197K miles on it in all!!! That says something about how much I loved that car.
Even after two blown engines, I buy another!!! OK, maybe I am not too smart, but I enjoy the brand and really can't find anything out there close to it. Yes it did bother me, but not all that much. And remember, the odds are with you. Porsche lessened the odds year after year although they never fixed all the modes simply because fundamentally, it wasn't a race-tested design completed when the company was near failure (IMHO).
They are still fantastic cars. Just beware and go into ownership eyes wide open.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
08-29-2014, 10:51 PM
#51
Cruisin'
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I'm glad there are plenty of people who think that way. Keeps the supply of used ones flowing. The original owner of my '05 C2 paid $89K for it. 4 years and 20K miles later I paid $46K for it. I could replace the engine today for $26K if worst came to worst, and still be $17K ahead of what he lost in depreciation having bought it new.
08-29-2014, 11:15 PM
#52
What is the issue with it, the viscosity or the chemical makeup? Around here the dealer and all the indies use 5W-40 synthetics of various brands. The 2 indies I've used each build race engines for Porsches (air and water cooleds) and have winning racing teams, so I have to believe they know their stuff.
08-29-2014, 11:21 PM
#53
Me too guy. I have a bumper-to-bumper warranty on it for another 2 1/2 years and I did have the LN bearing installed about 22K miles ago. The clutch was really stiff and improved greatly with replacement of that, so for the same labor I figured it made sense to do the IMSB upgrade at the same time.
If the engine grenades after the warranty expires I'll probably just part it out or sell it as a roller. Even now if I got $10K out of it, my monthly cost in depreciation would be around $545, far less than I could have leased one of these for.
If the engine grenades after the warranty expires I'll probably just part it out or sell it as a roller. Even now if I got $10K out of it, my monthly cost in depreciation would be around $545, far less than I could have leased one of these for.
08-29-2014, 11:26 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
My car is at almost 70k miles now and good third of them are from track events. So all that tells me one thing only - Jakes shop is an inevitable thing anyway, so, it is better to drive car well with no remorses until it lasts.
08-29-2014, 11:53 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
Just drive and enjoy. There is an end to everything.
08-30-2014, 12:20 AM
#56
RL Community Team
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Requested Input from Jake
OP, man that sucks and for many of us there's always that underlying concern that we could be in your situation, so this post is a bit of a hi-jack (sorry) but also very much related to this same issue on which I'd like Jakes' input, since no one really understands these engines and their weaknesses and possible preventions better than he. So, Jake, if you're still monitoring this thread, I have two late 2005 C2S cars - both have been inspected with the transmission out and have the larger IMS bearing that isn't serviceable in the car.
One is a 44,000 mile car with a RUF Supercharger (R-Kompressor) kit. You may not be vary familiar with this setup as according to RUF they built 5 factory cars and did 10-12 US conversions so there are probably less than 25 of them worldwide. The RUF setup is far more extensive than just bolting on a supercharger - see the attached PDF of photos - anything shown on the engine in a color is changed from the stock motor (40 something components if I remeber correctly) and they also use thicker head gaskets to lower the engine compression a little when making the 3.8 a forced induction motor. The other car is mostly stock (has IPD Plenum, gundo exhaust, Evoms intake for compatiblity with the active aero TT decklid, etc) has about 65,000 miles on it and is my wife's daily driver.
On to the questions:
Being not too far from you, I wouldn't mind coming by sometime to see your operation and chat about these types of topics. I know you're a big Type-IV fan and I have a built '74 914 2.0 too - it's no Jake Raby powerplant, but it does alrright
Attached are the Mobil Oil Spec Sheet summary and the RUF R-Kompressor Kit photo document I mentioned. Thanks for your time and let us know your thoughts on the above as our collective goal is to enjoy our cars and avoid the types of high-dollar surprises that some have seen with the M96 and early M97 engines.
One is a 44,000 mile car with a RUF Supercharger (R-Kompressor) kit. You may not be vary familiar with this setup as according to RUF they built 5 factory cars and did 10-12 US conversions so there are probably less than 25 of them worldwide. The RUF setup is far more extensive than just bolting on a supercharger - see the attached PDF of photos - anything shown on the engine in a color is changed from the stock motor (40 something components if I remeber correctly) and they also use thicker head gaskets to lower the engine compression a little when making the 3.8 a forced induction motor. The other car is mostly stock (has IPD Plenum, gundo exhaust, Evoms intake for compatiblity with the active aero TT decklid, etc) has about 65,000 miles on it and is my wife's daily driver.
On to the questions:
- For the later build 2005s and the 2006-2008 997.1 cars with the larger IMS bearing, I've seen a product advertised by Vertex Auto called the "Eternal IMS Fix" which I believe removes the seal of the larger IMS bearing and then installs an oil line that pressure feeds oil to the bearing to keep it from losing lubrication and becoming demolished. In your opinion, even though this is not one of your products (which is specifically why I think your opinion is important) is there value in doing this for cars with the larger bearing, will removing the seal do more harm than good, or are you not seeing many failures of the later larger IMS bearing?
- I know you don't want to specifically mention a list of oils that you believe provide adequate protection, but maybe you'll comment on what I'm using as "you should be OK" or not. Up until a couple months ago, I was using Mobil 1 5W-40 Turbo Diesel oil since it's a good viscosity for my climate (SC near Clemson) and it has 1100 PPM of Phosporous and 1200 PPM of Zinc, which I believe are what help protect these motors. Because it's a turbo diesel oil and not a passenger car oil, it seems to be exempt from the dramatic reduction of these compounds in oil that has occured over the past few years. From the chart I have (attached), only 3 or 4 Mobil oils have more and they are either V-Twin motorcycle oils or Racing oils that are not recommended for street car use, and they're either a 0W-XX or a 10W-XX or 15W-XX so outisde the recommended 0W-40 / 5W-40 spec fdepending on climate. I also use the LN Engineering sandwich plate adapter so I can use a screw on metal oil-filter (Mobil 1 - M1-107) a large magnet on the end of the filter to trap any magnetic particles in the bottom of it, and change the oil every 5,000 miles, which for my RUF car is about once every 9 months or for my wife's DD, about 3 times per year. Just recently, based on what I've been reading, I've switched oils to Motul 8100 xcess. I also have both cars equipped with the slightly cooler low-temperature thermostat. In hot ambient temps (95-105 F) running about 80-85 MPH on the highway, the oil temp gauge is right around the 225 degree mark, sometimes a little below and sometimes a little above - I know to pretty much ignore the coolant temperature gauge as it points straight up to 175 once the car is warm and stays there - more like an idiot light that looks like a gauge. My RUF car has the additonal 3rd center radiator mounted as part of the R-Kompressor Kit.
Is there value in going to a baffled deep sump oil pan like the FVD one which looks to be very high quality. I assume adding a little more oil volume can't hurt, having the baffles can keep the oil from moving away from the pick-up during cornering, and installation would also mean oil pan removal, which might be good to do anyway to see what, if anything, might be in there.
Being not too far from you, I wouldn't mind coming by sometime to see your operation and chat about these types of topics. I know you're a big Type-IV fan and I have a built '74 914 2.0 too - it's no Jake Raby powerplant, but it does alrright
Attached are the Mobil Oil Spec Sheet summary and the RUF R-Kompressor Kit photo document I mentioned. Thanks for your time and let us know your thoughts on the above as our collective goal is to enjoy our cars and avoid the types of high-dollar surprises that some have seen with the M96 and early M97 engines.
Thats not sludge. Its chunks of metal debris from the failure. My guess is this engine has been religiously lubricated with liquid death at the recommended intervals, which are far from adequate.
Just another normal day at the Morgue, here at Flat 6.
This is more than a spun bearing, it may have started as that, but now the collateral damage exceeds the damage caused by the primary failure.
No biggie. We've got it... I wouldn't know what to do if we saw a car actually drive into the facility that could be repaired in one day, or wasn't scattered to bits.. We've had ONE elective build in the last 40 engines here.
Just another normal day at the Morgue, here at Flat 6.
This is more than a spun bearing, it may have started as that, but now the collateral damage exceeds the damage caused by the primary failure.
No biggie. We've got it... I wouldn't know what to do if we saw a car actually drive into the facility that could be repaired in one day, or wasn't scattered to bits.. We've had ONE elective build in the last 40 engines here.
Last edited by Petza914; 08-30-2014 at 12:21 AM. Reason: Removing pictures
08-30-2014, 09:04 AM
#57
Rennlist Member
I really feel bad for the OP, but I can not help but think there is more to the story, these things do not just happen on there own. I am very curious if it is determined he was sold a lemon or did he do something wrong with the car.
Regardless I hope it doesn't hit the pocket too hard.......
Updates would be greatly appreciated!!!
Regardless I hope it doesn't hit the pocket too hard.......
Updates would be greatly appreciated!!!
08-30-2014, 11:59 AM
#58
On to the questions:[LIST=1][*]For the later build 2005s and the 2006-2008 997.1 cars with the larger IMS bearing, I've seen a product advertised by Vertex Auto called the "Eternal IMS Fix" which I believe removes the seal of the larger IMS bearing and then installs an oil line that pressure feeds oil to the bearing to keep it from losing lubrication and becoming demolished. In your opinion, even though this is not one of your products (which is specifically why I think your opinion is important) is there value in doing this for cars with the larger bearing, will removing the seal do more harm than good, or are you not seeing many failures of the later larger IMS bearing?
08-30-2014, 01:15 PM
#59
There seems to be a few key unknowns here, with conclusions being drawn from some cryptic messages.
1) Was this an IMS failure? So far this has not been determined it seems.
2) Is Mobile 1 what is being referred to by Jake as 'Liquid Death'?
3) Is the Porsche recommended oil change interval really dangerous?
Given that the sticker on our engine compartments clearly indicate Porsche recommends Mobile 1, and given the oil change recommendations in our Porsche manual, if the claims above our true, then Porsche either does not know it's own engine, or are negligent?
1) Was this an IMS failure? So far this has not been determined it seems.
2) Is Mobile 1 what is being referred to by Jake as 'Liquid Death'?
3) Is the Porsche recommended oil change interval really dangerous?
Given that the sticker on our engine compartments clearly indicate Porsche recommends Mobile 1, and given the oil change recommendations in our Porsche manual, if the claims above our true, then Porsche either does not know it's own engine, or are negligent?
08-30-2014, 02:12 PM
#60
Me too guy. I have a bumper-to-bumper warranty on it for another 2 1/2 years and I did have the LN bearing installed about 22K miles ago. The clutch was really stiff and improved greatly with replacement of that, so for the same labor I figured it made sense to do the IMSB upgrade at the same time.
If the engine grenades after the warranty expires I'll probably just part it out or sell it as a roller. Even now if I got $10K out of it, my monthly cost in depreciation would be around $545, far less than I could have leased one of these for.
If the engine grenades after the warranty expires I'll probably just part it out or sell it as a roller. Even now if I got $10K out of it, my monthly cost in depreciation would be around $545, far less than I could have leased one of these for.