Bore scoring - do all engines have it to some extent?
06-06-2013, 01:32 AM
#46
Drifting
Opportunistic... just hopeful that it will be in the right spot. BTW, have never turned a 911 engine... I assume it works like any other engine right? I was just going to put the car in neutral and push it... I know it's premative but it works with my other cars.
Last edited by USMC_DS1; 06-06-2013 at 01:55 AM.
06-06-2013, 09:28 AM
#47
Race Car
Hey Guys,
For those who are interested in Millers NT lubricants, here is an interesting discussion on BITOG:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...99173&page=all
67 King also contributes to RL.
Cheers,
=L=
For those who are interested in Millers NT lubricants, here is an interesting discussion on BITOG:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...99173&page=all
67 King also contributes to RL.
Cheers,
=L=
Overall, as it pertains to this particular issue, I'll mention a few things. First and foremost, there are two primary regions of lubrication, boundary and viscous (there is also mixed). The Nanotechnology doesn't do anything for you when you have a good thick oil film built up and are in a viscous lubrication region. All of the benefit from NT is in the boundary, which is when you have actual metal on metal contact before you have an oil film built up. Other than startup, there is one primary area in an engine where this occurs - the cylinder walls (as the piston reverses direction, the oil wedge formed on the ring is left behind, and a new one on the other side of it is formed). So the NT would stand to do a lot of good in the cylinder walls.
The way it works: The nanoparticles are very, very small, which does two things for you. First, they are smaller than the smallest of machining features. On polished parts, you still have what amounts to scratches that are a few microns in depths. The "metal on metal" is when these peaks, called asperities, slide against each other and break off. So the nanoparticles basically fill the low spots and create a very slick, smooth surface that reduces wear. The other thing the size does for you is increase van der waals forces so that the particles stick to the surfaces (rather than staying in the oil in the sump). I'll be happy to answer any questions y'all may have, but I'll spare you the full pitch.
That's kind of it for the bore scoring issue, but since the thread kind of touched on a few other things, I'll mention them for those who want to keep reading.
A couple of other things mentioned - the viscosity specifically. One of the big reasons people run a thicker weight oil is because the viscosity improvers break down. So if you start higher, you'll end up where you need to be. That is why it is dangerous to look at a single variable in oil such as viscosity index (which is somewhat trendy right now). Very good race oils like the Millers CFS and Motul 300V are comprised of high quality base stocks that inherently give you a good viscosity. When you get high VI from base stocks, rather than additives, you don't lose viscosity. There are some other race oils out there that have very, very high VI's, but they break down in a few hundred miles, which necessitates very frequent changes. I don't really like being critical of specific brands, but there is one very, very popular one that tends to load up on viscosity improvers, and the oil just doesn't last or protect well. So that's why folks end up running a 10W60 instead of the 5W40 recommended by the factory.
For what it is worth, my business partner ran a 996 in WOrld Challenge and PCA Club races last year. He stayed with the 5W40. Set a few class records, so he isn't just putzing around out there. 1700 race miles, single fill, the oil lasted the whole season, and never lost viscosity or other properties: http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF...case_study.pdf is a little write-up on the case study. Again, this gets back to the very high quality base stocks, but also is because of a good, robust additive pack. There is only one oil out there other than Millers that I think would stand a chance at surviving this environment, and that is the Motul 300V. Mobil 1, Joe Gibbs, and Valvoline all dictate that you must change the race oils every 500 miles or fewer (the Mobil 1 has a good additive pack, but shears down and loses viscosity - the Gibbs and Valvoline have very minimal additive packs so they become acidic). Again, this is all the good high quality base stock of the oil, and not the NT. The NT gives added protection that others don't, and also frees up some horsepower that is otherwise lost as friction.
We don't have anything other than anecdotal experience for how long it lasts on the street. Due to the high quality base stocks and robust additive pack, though, it will last a long, long time. The head of Millers' technology development runs it in his daily driven diesel Jag - and runs a 20,000 mile change interval. At the end of the day , the best thing you can do to determine this is sample your oil. We use Polaris, and their kits are available through us. I know there are others that are out there, but we have found Polaris' numbers to be much more consistent than others, so that's who we use.
At present, we advise people to use the same viscosity that they have been using, but we are hoping in the future to have enough data to consider running a thinner oil. We think we can do this because the NT additive increases load bearing capability pretty significantly, and also drastically reduces wear. That is within the same viscosity. What we don't have as of yet is how a thinner NT oil fares against a non-NT oil (e.g. a 5W40 NT compared to a typical 10W50).
As for the A40 Porsche specification, there are a few reasons you won't see that. First, most race oils will have too much ZDDP. It is an incredibly effective additive. Reduces wear, helps prevent breakdown, etc. But the EPA started pushing for its reduction, as in the very long term, it can poison the cats. Note that that can be reversed as you get the exhaust hot enough, so if you track your car, it won't really be an issue. If you don't, we are talking VERY long term here. This factor alone will keep the good race oils from ever having Porsche A40 specification - and this would include the Mobil 1 Race Oil.
Second, to get on the "approval" list, you have to add certain things to the oil per Porsche's cook book. That may conflict with a manufacturer's overall philosophy the same way that making companies use pushrods in NASCAR does. Third, it is expensive. Very few oils carry the Porsche approval. Note that there is a business relationship between Mobil 1 and Porsche (as well as others - Mobil 1 gives away a TON of oil, more to just the Grand Am series that Millers sells in all of North America), so Mobil 1 does. But few others do, I think Elf may, there may be a Castrol, but not many.
06-06-2013, 07:55 PM
#48
Wow, got a little dizzy reading 67king's post. Tells me I shouldn't write long, long posts myself! Informative, though.
USMC_DS1, I think you meant putting in first and pushing your car. You can also turn the engine via the crankshaft pulley bolt and, this time, in neutral. Whilst it is best not to turn anti clockwise for several reasons I.e. might loosen the bolt itself (unlikely as it was fitted at very high torque), timing chain jumping, etc. I have turned it both directions without problem.
USMC_DS1, I think you meant putting in first and pushing your car. You can also turn the engine via the crankshaft pulley bolt and, this time, in neutral. Whilst it is best not to turn anti clockwise for several reasons I.e. might loosen the bolt itself (unlikely as it was fitted at very high torque), timing chain jumping, etc. I have turned it both directions without problem.
06-07-2013, 01:19 PM
#49
You want to put it in 6th and push the car. it'll be much easier. Personally, I usually just jack one rear wheel(need one on the floor so the diff just doesn't spin) and use it like a crank to turn the engine. it's more accurate than pushing the car.
06-07-2013, 01:43 PM
#50
Drifting
+1... This sounds like the easiest as I'll want to pull a plug any way so will have to put the car up for that 1st. Also easier and more precise with it in a higher gear.
04-28-2018, 10:50 AM
#51
Sorry I'm late to the party, here. I hang out mostly on the racing forum, and also on the Volkswag.....um, 944 forums. Anyway, if you are interested in the Millers, this is probably a better thread to check out: https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...sor-intro.html
Overall, as it pertains to this particular issue, I'll mention a few things. First and foremost, there are two primary regions of lubrication, boundary and viscous (there is also mixed). The Nanotechnology doesn't do anything for you when you have a good thick oil film built up and are in a viscous lubrication region. All of the benefit from NT is in the boundary, which is when you have actual metal on metal contact before you have an oil film built up. Other than startup, there is one primary area in an engine where this occurs - the cylinder walls (as the piston reverses direction, the oil wedge formed on the ring is left behind, and a new one on the other side of it is formed). So the NT would stand to do a lot of good in the cylinder walls.
The way it works: The nanoparticles are very, very small, which does two things for you. First, they are smaller than the smallest of machining features. On polished parts, you still have what amounts to scratches that are a few microns in depths. The "metal on metal" is when these peaks, called asperities, slide against each other and break off. So the nanoparticles basically fill the low spots and create a very slick, smooth surface that reduces wear. The other thing the size does for you is increase van der waals forces so that the particles stick to the surfaces (rather than staying in the oil in the sump). I'll be happy to answer any questions y'all may have, but I'll spare you the full pitch.
That's kind of it for the bore scoring issue, but since the thread kind of touched on a few other things, I'll mention them for those who want to keep reading.
A couple of other things mentioned - the viscosity specifically. One of the big reasons people run a thicker weight oil is because the viscosity improvers break down. So if you start higher, you'll end up where you need to be. That is why it is dangerous to look at a single variable in oil such as viscosity index (which is somewhat trendy right now). Very good race oils like the Millers CFS and Motul 300V are comprised of high quality base stocks that inherently give you a good viscosity. When you get high VI from base stocks, rather than additives, you don't lose viscosity. There are some other race oils out there that have very, very high VI's, but they break down in a few hundred miles, which necessitates very frequent changes. I don't really like being critical of specific brands, but there is one very, very popular one that tends to load up on viscosity improvers, and the oil just doesn't last or protect well. So that's why folks end up running a 10W60 instead of the 5W40 recommended by the factory.
For what it is worth, my business partner ran a 996 in WOrld Challenge and PCA Club races last year. He stayed with the 5W40. Set a few class records, so he isn't just putzing around out there. 1700 race miles, single fill, the oil lasted the whole season, and never lost viscosity or other properties: http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF...case_study.pdf is a little write-up on the case study. Again, this gets back to the very high quality base stocks, but also is because of a good, robust additive pack. There is only one oil out there other than Millers that I think would stand a chance at surviving this environment, and that is the Motul 300V. Mobil 1, Joe Gibbs, and Valvoline all dictate that you must change the race oils every 500 miles or fewer (the Mobil 1 has a good additive pack, but shears down and loses viscosity - the Gibbs and Valvoline have very minimal additive packs so they become acidic). Again, this is all the good high quality base stock of the oil, and not the NT. The NT gives added protection that others don't, and also frees up some horsepower that is otherwise lost as friction.
We don't have anything other than anecdotal experience for how long it lasts on the street. Due to the high quality base stocks and robust additive pack, though, it will last a long, long time. The head of Millers' technology development runs it in his daily driven diesel Jag - and runs a 20,000 mile change interval. At the end of the day , the best thing you can do to determine this is sample your oil. We use Polaris, and their kits are available through us. I know there are others that are out there, but we have found Polaris' numbers to be much more consistent than others, so that's who we use.
At present, we advise people to use the same viscosity that they have been using, but we are hoping in the future to have enough data to consider running a thinner oil. We think we can do this because the NT additive increases load bearing capability pretty significantly, and also drastically reduces wear. That is within the same viscosity. What we don't have as of yet is how a thinner NT oil fares against a non-NT oil (e.g. a 5W40 NT compared to a typical 10W50).
As for the A40 Porsche specification, there are a few reasons you won't see that. First, most race oils will have too much ZDDP. It is an incredibly effective additive. Reduces wear, helps prevent breakdown, etc. But the EPA started pushing for its reduction, as in the very long term, it can poison the cats. Note that that can be reversed as you get the exhaust hot enough, so if you track your car, it won't really be an issue. If you don't, we are talking VERY long term here. This factor alone will keep the good race oils from ever having Porsche A40 specification - and this would include the Mobil 1 Race Oil.
Second, to get on the "approval" list, you have to add certain things to the oil per Porsche's cook book. That may conflict with a manufacturer's overall philosophy the same way that making companies use pushrods in NASCAR does. Third, it is expensive. Very few oils carry the Porsche approval. Note that there is a business relationship between Mobil 1 and Porsche (as well as others - Mobil 1 gives away a TON of oil, more to just the Grand Am series that Millers sells in all of North America), so Mobil 1 does. But few others do, I think Elf may, there may be a Castrol, but not many.
Overall, as it pertains to this particular issue, I'll mention a few things. First and foremost, there are two primary regions of lubrication, boundary and viscous (there is also mixed). The Nanotechnology doesn't do anything for you when you have a good thick oil film built up and are in a viscous lubrication region. All of the benefit from NT is in the boundary, which is when you have actual metal on metal contact before you have an oil film built up. Other than startup, there is one primary area in an engine where this occurs - the cylinder walls (as the piston reverses direction, the oil wedge formed on the ring is left behind, and a new one on the other side of it is formed). So the NT would stand to do a lot of good in the cylinder walls.
The way it works: The nanoparticles are very, very small, which does two things for you. First, they are smaller than the smallest of machining features. On polished parts, you still have what amounts to scratches that are a few microns in depths. The "metal on metal" is when these peaks, called asperities, slide against each other and break off. So the nanoparticles basically fill the low spots and create a very slick, smooth surface that reduces wear. The other thing the size does for you is increase van der waals forces so that the particles stick to the surfaces (rather than staying in the oil in the sump). I'll be happy to answer any questions y'all may have, but I'll spare you the full pitch.
That's kind of it for the bore scoring issue, but since the thread kind of touched on a few other things, I'll mention them for those who want to keep reading.
A couple of other things mentioned - the viscosity specifically. One of the big reasons people run a thicker weight oil is because the viscosity improvers break down. So if you start higher, you'll end up where you need to be. That is why it is dangerous to look at a single variable in oil such as viscosity index (which is somewhat trendy right now). Very good race oils like the Millers CFS and Motul 300V are comprised of high quality base stocks that inherently give you a good viscosity. When you get high VI from base stocks, rather than additives, you don't lose viscosity. There are some other race oils out there that have very, very high VI's, but they break down in a few hundred miles, which necessitates very frequent changes. I don't really like being critical of specific brands, but there is one very, very popular one that tends to load up on viscosity improvers, and the oil just doesn't last or protect well. So that's why folks end up running a 10W60 instead of the 5W40 recommended by the factory.
For what it is worth, my business partner ran a 996 in WOrld Challenge and PCA Club races last year. He stayed with the 5W40. Set a few class records, so he isn't just putzing around out there. 1700 race miles, single fill, the oil lasted the whole season, and never lost viscosity or other properties: http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF...case_study.pdf is a little write-up on the case study. Again, this gets back to the very high quality base stocks, but also is because of a good, robust additive pack. There is only one oil out there other than Millers that I think would stand a chance at surviving this environment, and that is the Motul 300V. Mobil 1, Joe Gibbs, and Valvoline all dictate that you must change the race oils every 500 miles or fewer (the Mobil 1 has a good additive pack, but shears down and loses viscosity - the Gibbs and Valvoline have very minimal additive packs so they become acidic). Again, this is all the good high quality base stock of the oil, and not the NT. The NT gives added protection that others don't, and also frees up some horsepower that is otherwise lost as friction.
We don't have anything other than anecdotal experience for how long it lasts on the street. Due to the high quality base stocks and robust additive pack, though, it will last a long, long time. The head of Millers' technology development runs it in his daily driven diesel Jag - and runs a 20,000 mile change interval. At the end of the day , the best thing you can do to determine this is sample your oil. We use Polaris, and their kits are available through us. I know there are others that are out there, but we have found Polaris' numbers to be much more consistent than others, so that's who we use.
At present, we advise people to use the same viscosity that they have been using, but we are hoping in the future to have enough data to consider running a thinner oil. We think we can do this because the NT additive increases load bearing capability pretty significantly, and also drastically reduces wear. That is within the same viscosity. What we don't have as of yet is how a thinner NT oil fares against a non-NT oil (e.g. a 5W40 NT compared to a typical 10W50).
As for the A40 Porsche specification, there are a few reasons you won't see that. First, most race oils will have too much ZDDP. It is an incredibly effective additive. Reduces wear, helps prevent breakdown, etc. But the EPA started pushing for its reduction, as in the very long term, it can poison the cats. Note that that can be reversed as you get the exhaust hot enough, so if you track your car, it won't really be an issue. If you don't, we are talking VERY long term here. This factor alone will keep the good race oils from ever having Porsche A40 specification - and this would include the Mobil 1 Race Oil.
Second, to get on the "approval" list, you have to add certain things to the oil per Porsche's cook book. That may conflict with a manufacturer's overall philosophy the same way that making companies use pushrods in NASCAR does. Third, it is expensive. Very few oils carry the Porsche approval. Note that there is a business relationship between Mobil 1 and Porsche (as well as others - Mobil 1 gives away a TON of oil, more to just the Grand Am series that Millers sells in all of North America), so Mobil 1 does. But few others do, I think Elf may, there may be a Castrol, but not many.
04-28-2018, 02:48 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
The same players in the boutique oil business are providing us many options that are great for our Porsche vehicles. Just a few good ones are Driven, Millers, Brad Penn, and others, and for the M96/M97 engines, a good mid-saps 5w40 for will provide excellent performance for street use with shorter drain intervals. For track use, a race oil should always be used and won't hurt the cats.
The following users liked this post:
jlert (11-03-2022)
