pcormier

I currently own a 987.1 Cayman S and want to sell it and purchase either a newer 987.2 Cayman S or a 997.2 911. I live in Colorado where we get regular snow and I travel to the mountains often. I've been driving the Cayman daily, even in the winter with factory recommended snow tires and keep porsche snow chains in my trunk. I like the idea of a AWD sports car, as long as it isn't a fun-killer. I am a very competent Auto-Xer. If I decide to get a Cayman or rear-wheel drive 911, I will install a limited slip diff, adjustable lower control arms and adjustable sway bars.

I want to do Track Days (PCA DE) regularly and I want to make sure I get a car that will allow me to rotate it in corners with the throttle. The Cayman does this nicely. I want a car that I can drive daily in colorado, but is plenty fun on the track.

Questions:

1. Can I rotate a C4/C4s with the throttle in the turns, or does the AWD take over and keep the car straight?
2. Does it have significant understeer in steady throttle conditions on track?
3. Are there aftermarket items that will allow me to correct understeer etc for the AWD cars?
4. Is a C2 with snow tires so competent in the snow that AWD is unnecessary? (I have gotten stuck once in the cayman once, without the chains installed)

Thoughts?

Paul

Berringer

I got my 997.2 C4S sideways with throttle on sharp turn during my test drive. PDK with sports plus button depressed and PASM in sports mode. Great fun, thought the dealer was going to choke.

Cloudspin

If you decide to go the 997.2 route, LSD is included in the PASM sports suspension option so you might want to look for it:

New Sports Suspension
Porsche engineers have also configured a special new variant of PASM for the 2009 911 Carrera and Carrera S Coupes. Intended for the serious and skilled enthusiast driver, the setup replaces the former sports suspension.
Like the previous passive sports suspension, the new, PASM sports suspension gives the car an even firmer and tauter ride, at the same time lowering the entire vehicle by 0.79 inches (20 mm). This new suspension improves both handling performance and comfort, compared with the passive system. The active sports suspension is available together with the mechanical limited-slip differential, and either the manual gearbox or PDK. The limited-slip is mechanical and provides 22 percent lock under power and 27 percent in overrun.

Good luck with the search.

seapar

I have a C4S and have tracked it for 2 seasons in the northwest. It was great fun and then I got the track bug so got 18 inch wheels and R888 tires. This past August I got a 2007mk1 GT3. With coaching I am learning to rotate the GT3 in turns which the AWD C4S won't do. Both are fun but once you experience driving a GT3 you don't really want to track the heavier, less precise C4S that has more body roll even with sport plus and PASM
I have a friend who tracks his C4S and is a great driver having great fun. I am lucky to still have both cars

alexb76

1. You can rotate no problem, it's still a rear-engine car. Specially if you turned off Traction Control. One caveat being is that the 997.2 AWD works better in transfering power to wheels than 997.1 (hence better in wet/snow), while this makes it less tail happy than 997.1 AWD which engages front only when things slip, but both can rotate easy.
2. No (specially with alignment, see below)
3. Alignment is all you need. Most people who track (C2 or C4 regardless), get GT3 adjustable control arms to get more negative front camber, this alone completely changes the handling characteristic, and reduces understeer quite significantly!
4. No

wwest

First, the 911's using the VC for AWD is so non-functional only the extra weight matters.

With the electromagnetically actuated front drive as a general rule the front drive is not enabled except during low speed acceleration, certainly NOT with the yaw sensor indicating the front tire traction should be largely dedicated to lateral control.

In any case it would be a rather simple matter to open the control circuit to totally disable front drive, or better yet on KNOWN low traction surfaces a switch could be used to have 4WD mode.

Caution: Never have the 4WD mode engaged except on a consistently slippery surface.

wwest

4.) Like a true 4WD the 997's new version of AWD cannot be engaged consistently, certainly NOT automatically (***), absent doing damage to the drive train in the long term and in some cases in the short term, sometimes VERY short term.

So the compromise is made to engage the front drive ONLY at times when otherwise the engine torque level delivered to the rear wheels is most likely to result in loss of traction, wheelspin/lip.

Oddly enough for "base" FWD vehicles that means engaging the REAR drive heavily as the Yaw sensor indicates increasing front lateral tire loading. Conversely, our "base" RWD vehicles will UNLOAD the engine drive to the FRONT in these cases.

*** There is NO way, as of yet, to automatically detect/sense the slipperness of a roadbed surface in advance.

wwest

For "VC" 911 C4's:

With snow chains installed only on the rear the disparate rear to front rotation rate might well result in substantive "tightening" of the VC. Providing a high level of wheelspin/slip remains, consistently SLIPPERY surface, so as to NOT damage drive line components.

PTO in our Chrysler T&C AWD went "south" (severe overheating) within less that 20 miles with tire chains only on the front. Headed up the Pass not yet reaching the snow level. One "sturdy" VC, that.

wwest

Maybe a function of HP/torque/weight, NOT the AWD.

seapar

Maybe you are right. I go by what one of coaches/instructor says with his cup car racing experience. All I know is the feel and car precision is quite a bit different in rotating into turns. I have no experience with the older 911s btw.

zanwar

1) It is possible to rotate a 997.1 4S using the throttle, I did it all the time.
2) There will be more understeer exiting a fast corner on the track. You have to take a slightly different line. After a while it became annoying.
3) As already mentioned, an alignment is all you need.
4) My 4S with snow tires never got stuck, unfortunately I can't comment on a C2/C2S. Personally I wouldn't be scared of it. You will have 65% of the weight on the back wheels after all.

If I was in your position, I would either do a Cayman R or a 997.2 C2. You'll need to install GT3 lower control arms in either car to get a proper alignment. The Cayman will also need a transmission cooler.

GBoxguys

I think that the thing you will need to consider here is how the car is set up.

With some modifications, I believe that you can find a pretty good middle ground between great street stability in most conditions, as well as adequate track performance.

You might want to consider looking for a low mile Turbo, as the cost of these is pretty competitive and will still give you AWD. I got to put some time in on one last year and was very impressed with the overall performance at the track.

Just something to consider.

Erik Johnson
Boulder Colorado

pcormier

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm heading to the Dealer Saturday to test a 2011 911 2S and 2010 911 4S back to back.

Some comments:

1. I'm not interested in a Turbo. Friend has one, I like to control the car with the throttle. Turbo throttle response, particularly here in Colorado at 6,000 ft elevation, due to boost threshold and spool time, is crappy.
2. I notice that a few of you have gone from C4s to GT3. The GT3 is really the car I want, but doesn't really qualify as a daily driver for me here in Colorado unfortunately. I am filled with envy though.
3. Thank you for the information on the Sport PASM. I may try to find a C2s with the PASM-S hoping it would be a bit better in the snow than the Cayman and not quite as good as the C4s
4. So GT3 adjustable Lower Control Arms will fit on the AWD 911s? Can someone confirm this?
5. I would only be using snow chains on a RWD Porsche. My cayman is unstoppable with them, but they are a pain to put on and remove, and potentially dangerous to install depending on the driving conditions, say on the side of a freeway during a white-out.
6. I have an aggressive alignment on my Cayman S, without adjustable LCAs and it is very balanced. Need more Negative camber for the DEs though.

You guys are awesome, thanks for all the great input. I'll followup here after my test drive this weekend for anyone interested.

Paul

zanwar

Yes no problem. The driveshafts will eventually get in the way of more negative camber, but that's only when you want a full track setup. For street/track you'll be fine.

pcormier

So, as promised, here is my review of the C4s and a BONUS review of the Subiyota BRZ.

Today I stopped by my local Porsche dealership to drive a 2010 911 C4s PDK at 6,100 ft elevation. Here's the spoiler... I hated it. Why'd I hate it? PDK and AWD. The PDK was VERY slow shifting in manual mode. I drove it without a salesman... who by the way was very nice. I kept the transmission in manual model to help me apply smooth consistent power for my throttle rotation attempts. I had the traction control off for almost the entire test drive. In tight 180 degree turns, I had to really toss it around, and time the throttle mashing precisely to get it to even begin to rotate. It was frustrating and not much fun. Most of these attempts were with the PDK in manual mode. These were both in first and second gear. Couldn't test any high-speed corners and wouldn't feel comfortable doing that on the road with a car I've never driven before anyway. The car was pretty fast, but didn't feel that much faster than my '06 Cayman S, which was very surprising. It was faster, but I guess the weight of the car and the two friends I had with me had negative affects on acceleration. It got around corners without much fuss and had very high limits. But my final word on rotating it with the throttle, on the street, is that it's doable, but not very accessible to me with my limited skills.

Unfortunately I was not able to drive the C2s back to back because it was being driven to a potential buyer for a test drive. However, even if they had one there, I probably wouldn't have bothered since it wasl also a PDK. I hear the newer PDK is better... I don't care.

After leaving the Porsche Dealership, following a nice understanding conversation with my sales guy, I drove down to the Subaru dealership to try a BRZ.

I was able to get the BRZ to rotate with the throttle. The engine power was pretty disappointing, but not as weak as I thought it would be based on reviews I've read. I drove it with the Stability Control (or whatever Subaru calls it) off but during one rotation, it felt like it came back on when I got it really sideways. I thought it was completely defeatable, but I could swear that it started braking and cutting throttle. I was not able to duplicate that situation. The stock tires were crappy, but fun. The chassis was really good. Seats comfortable and supportive. The interior was, well, Subaru-y. The engine sounds like a blender filled with concrete block bits... thanks for pumping that sound into the interior Subaru! Yuk. It felt very coarse too.

I'm happy I have the funds to be shopping for another Porsche, but if I didn't, I'd probably buy one of these, even with the raspy engine.

I took my Cayman S back over the same roads and was able to slide it around the 180's with snow tires with the PSM turned off. I love that car. Look forward to trying this with a 911 C2s.

I will continue shopping for a 987.2 Cayman S or a 997.2 911 C2 or C2s. I'd love a GT3, but I think it's a little too extreme for a daily driver in Colorado.

Thank you all SOOO much for your support