997/2 C4/C4s on-track handling
01-06-2013, 06:14 AM
#16
Rennlist Member
Read your report and I think you should maybe keep your Cayman since what you're looking for it seems you will not be able to find in the 997.2 to your liking unless you step up to a GT3 which then changes things in terms of price and drive-ability completely. Also the GT3 isn't exactly a daily driver from what I've heard from friends who have one. Nor should it be.
Sounds like you want a track car you can drive daily but still do track like things with it in terms of ability to rotate the car using throttle and thru corners etc...great things for the track and HPDE but not stuff one normally does on the way to work and coming off the local off ramp. LOL So my take of your dilemma is that you either:
1- keep your Cayman S
2- get a dedicated track car - GT3
3- look at the 997.2 C2 (but I think you will probably feel the same as you did for the PDK C4S)
4- look elsewhere for other options.
I also suggest that you may consider looking into a Cayman R (real track car) or the new 13 Cayman was introduced and it was a beauty! Maybe time for an upgrade here.
Anyway you're in a nice position to have it seems...GL
Sounds like you want a track car you can drive daily but still do track like things with it in terms of ability to rotate the car using throttle and thru corners etc...great things for the track and HPDE but not stuff one normally does on the way to work and coming off the local off ramp. LOL So my take of your dilemma is that you either:
1- keep your Cayman S
2- get a dedicated track car - GT3
3- look at the 997.2 C2 (but I think you will probably feel the same as you did for the PDK C4S)
4- look elsewhere for other options.
I also suggest that you may consider looking into a Cayman R (real track car) or the new 13 Cayman was introduced and it was a beauty! Maybe time for an upgrade here.
Anyway you're in a nice position to have it seems...GL
01-06-2013, 12:24 PM
#17
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>>mdrobc1213 - Anyway you're in a nice position to have it seems...GL<<
Indeed. I am very fortunate as are most of the members of this board.
And thank you for your advice. I want the newer engine and other improvements that the 987.2 offers over my current 987.1. I think I've settled on selling this one and getting a second gen Cayman S and adding adjustable control arms, adjustable bars and a limited slip. Probably purchase an older 4x4 pickup for really tough winter weather and hauling, but still daily drive the Cayman.
With that said, I'll leave you guys alone and head back to the Cayman forums.
Thank you all again for your helpful advice and support.
Indeed. I am very fortunate as are most of the members of this board.
And thank you for your advice. I want the newer engine and other improvements that the 987.2 offers over my current 987.1. I think I've settled on selling this one and getting a second gen Cayman S and adding adjustable control arms, adjustable bars and a limited slip. Probably purchase an older 4x4 pickup for really tough winter weather and hauling, but still daily drive the Cayman.
With that said, I'll leave you guys alone and head back to the Cayman forums.
Thank you all again for your helpful advice and support.
01-06-2013, 06:27 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
>>mdrobc1213 - Anyway you're in a nice position to have it seems...GL<<
Indeed. I am very fortunate as are most of the members of this board.
And thank you for your advice. I want the newer engine and other improvements that the 987.2 offers over my current 987.1. I think I've settled on selling this one and getting a second gen Cayman S and adding adjustable control arms, adjustable bars and a limited slip. Probably purchase an older 4x4 pickup for really tough winter weather and hauling, but still daily drive the Cayman.
With that said, I'll leave you guys alone and head back to the Cayman forums.
Thank you all again for your helpful advice and support.
Indeed. I am very fortunate as are most of the members of this board.
And thank you for your advice. I want the newer engine and other improvements that the 987.2 offers over my current 987.1. I think I've settled on selling this one and getting a second gen Cayman S and adding adjustable control arms, adjustable bars and a limited slip. Probably purchase an older 4x4 pickup for really tough winter weather and hauling, but still daily drive the Cayman.
With that said, I'll leave you guys alone and head back to the Cayman forums.
Thank you all again for your helpful advice and support.
A separatea 4x4 is always a great winter option...especially in Colorado one would think.
01-12-2013, 12:59 PM
#19
I think you should go drive a C4S PDK again. I had the 997.2 C4S PDK (in Cabrio luxo-barge configuration ... not a light 911 by any measure) and it was a supreme all-rounder. From time trials and a lap record at Sears, to Nokian snow tires and plowing through a foot of fresh snow, just a great handling car with excellent handling characteristics, precise response to control inputs and a crisp, lively feel.
The example you drove may have been on bad tires or a poor alignment or you just didn't settle in for long enough to connect to the car. All I ever did or felt I needed to do was set up the alignment of the 997.2 C4S and use appropriate tires for the conditions.
As for the general 2WD vs AWD, for the 997.2, I like the wide body and I make use of AWD, but otherwise, and for a handful of days in snow conditions, I'd prefer 2WD for its weight advantage, not for any feel or handling issues. There's been some great posts on the topic ever since the 997.1 showed up. You might search for the youtube video where top gear has a rally Stig drive a C2 and C4 to compare them on an in-door rally stage.
Here's a couple of paragraphs on the topic I baked beforehand:
Here's a couple of paragraphs on my experience with the 911 as a winter season daily driver in deep snow. I ski over 50 days per year, so I'm pretty sure I've challenged the 911 to earn its keep, not just as a show pony on sunny weekends.
Of the GT3's, I'd generally recommend the 997.1 with an appreciation for the 996 in the '04 and '05 models for the USA market as a track day car that's not so well suited to daily driving – in my opinion, and having had both. Money no object, get the 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 or of course the venerable RS 4.0, but back in reality-ville, for the well-healed, the 997.1 GT3 is hard to beat and the 997.1 GT3 RS 3.6 is a superb all-rounder that could be argued as being undervalued in the market (not forgetting, in its day, the RS 3.6 commanded prices higher than the RS 4.0 at its peak.)
I've had two 997.1 GT3's. Aside from being obviously 2WD with reduced ground clearance, compared to any other 2WD 911, I think, with a set of Nokian Hakkapeliittas, the GT3 will be a competent Winter car, biding its time until the first dry day of Spring. I've had my 2WD 991 in the snow and it's no problem. I also carry the marvelous Thule K-Summit chains, which enable the 2wd 911 to climb roads even in deep snow. But for all-rounder, every day driving, when I had the Nokians on, the 911 was confident and sure-footed, steering was good, acceleration and cornering were stable, just realizing that snow means stopping distances can be five or ten times longer than on wet roads even with the best snow tires (short of studs, which I've had on the Cayenne and currently have on a Mercedes GL.)
The other thing I remember of the 997.1 and 997.2 in the snow is the car is ready for winter -- the wipers work (without building up ice dams) and the window de-mist and de-frost functions work, the 911 is ready for snow and winter driving. I put the plastic liner in the front trunk and carry the "sno brum" which is especially good for clearing windows and painted panels without scratching. Parking overnight and finding the car buried in four feet of snow, the 997.2 and 991 have both "just driven out" with a little clearing to access the driver's door and expose the windows.
This is my second winter in the 991 and I'm expecting to update to the 991 GT3 or perhaps the Targa 4S. Hard to say. I'm not a big fan of the 991 and I look forward to Porsche righting some of its wrongs. I do like AWD for a daily driver 911, but I have the luxury of a GT3 RS 3.8 in a trailer for track days and it looks like the 991 GT3 will be very expensive and mostly a technological car. The 997 GTS continues to be the high point of recent Carreras. A GT3 with back seats and lacking only the joy of the "real" engine.
For your question, I assume the 991 is irrelevant. I'd go with a 997.1 GT3, snow or even studded snow tires and enjoy something that few people on the planet will ever experience or even understand. What's the worst that could happen -- you'd have a great track car, a great summer car and a mediocre transport when there's snow on the ground.
Cheers,
The example you drove may have been on bad tires or a poor alignment or you just didn't settle in for long enough to connect to the car. All I ever did or felt I needed to do was set up the alignment of the 997.2 C4S and use appropriate tires for the conditions.
As for the general 2WD vs AWD, for the 997.2, I like the wide body and I make use of AWD, but otherwise, and for a handful of days in snow conditions, I'd prefer 2WD for its weight advantage, not for any feel or handling issues. There's been some great posts on the topic ever since the 997.1 showed up. You might search for the youtube video where top gear has a rally Stig drive a C2 and C4 to compare them on an in-door rally stage.
Here's a couple of paragraphs on the topic I baked beforehand:
Here's a couple of paragraphs on my experience with the 911 as a winter season daily driver in deep snow. I ski over 50 days per year, so I'm pretty sure I've challenged the 911 to earn its keep, not just as a show pony on sunny weekends.
Of the GT3's, I'd generally recommend the 997.1 with an appreciation for the 996 in the '04 and '05 models for the USA market as a track day car that's not so well suited to daily driving – in my opinion, and having had both. Money no object, get the 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 or of course the venerable RS 4.0, but back in reality-ville, for the well-healed, the 997.1 GT3 is hard to beat and the 997.1 GT3 RS 3.6 is a superb all-rounder that could be argued as being undervalued in the market (not forgetting, in its day, the RS 3.6 commanded prices higher than the RS 4.0 at its peak.)
I've had two 997.1 GT3's. Aside from being obviously 2WD with reduced ground clearance, compared to any other 2WD 911, I think, with a set of Nokian Hakkapeliittas, the GT3 will be a competent Winter car, biding its time until the first dry day of Spring. I've had my 2WD 991 in the snow and it's no problem. I also carry the marvelous Thule K-Summit chains, which enable the 2wd 911 to climb roads even in deep snow. But for all-rounder, every day driving, when I had the Nokians on, the 911 was confident and sure-footed, steering was good, acceleration and cornering were stable, just realizing that snow means stopping distances can be five or ten times longer than on wet roads even with the best snow tires (short of studs, which I've had on the Cayenne and currently have on a Mercedes GL.)
The other thing I remember of the 997.1 and 997.2 in the snow is the car is ready for winter -- the wipers work (without building up ice dams) and the window de-mist and de-frost functions work, the 911 is ready for snow and winter driving. I put the plastic liner in the front trunk and carry the "sno brum" which is especially good for clearing windows and painted panels without scratching. Parking overnight and finding the car buried in four feet of snow, the 997.2 and 991 have both "just driven out" with a little clearing to access the driver's door and expose the windows.
This is my second winter in the 991 and I'm expecting to update to the 991 GT3 or perhaps the Targa 4S. Hard to say. I'm not a big fan of the 991 and I look forward to Porsche righting some of its wrongs. I do like AWD for a daily driver 911, but I have the luxury of a GT3 RS 3.8 in a trailer for track days and it looks like the 991 GT3 will be very expensive and mostly a technological car. The 997 GTS continues to be the high point of recent Carreras. A GT3 with back seats and lacking only the joy of the "real" engine.
For your question, I assume the 991 is irrelevant. I'd go with a 997.1 GT3, snow or even studded snow tires and enjoy something that few people on the planet will ever experience or even understand. What's the worst that could happen -- you'd have a great track car, a great summer car and a mediocre transport when there's snow on the ground.
Cheers,
01-12-2013, 01:07 PM
#20
i recently switched my 997.2 C2 manual for a 997.2 C4S pdk launch car.
First impressions are very positive. Definitely more power, from the first 250 miles steering is not the same, but i cannot say better or worse until i run the 4S at an autocross event... The suspension is different and the turn in since the 4S has a mechanical LSD too...
Athough i was running my C2 with PSM off when autocrossing, now with the C4S i will start with the PSM off, since the new car is 4wd... I will defnitely report back when the season starts...
First impressions are very positive. Definitely more power, from the first 250 miles steering is not the same, but i cannot say better or worse until i run the 4S at an autocross event... The suspension is different and the turn in since the 4S has a mechanical LSD too...
Athough i was running my C2 with PSM off when autocrossing, now with the C4S i will start with the PSM off, since the new car is 4wd... I will defnitely report back when the season starts...
01-12-2013, 04:48 PM
#21
Drifting
So, as promised, here is my review of the C4s and a BONUS review of the Subiyota BRZ.
Today I stopped by my local Porsche dealership to drive a 2010 911 C4s PDK at 6,100 ft elevation. Here's the spoiler... I hated it. Why'd I hate it? PDK and AWD. The PDK was VERY slow shifting in manual mode. I drove it without a salesman... who by the way was very nice. I kept the transmission in manual model to help me apply smooth consistent power for my throttle rotation attempts. I had the traction control off for almost the entire test drive.
In tight 180 degree turns, I had to really toss it around, and time the throttle mashing precisely to get it to even begin to rotate.
But. Other than no "fun" factor did the car follow the correct "line"..??
It was frustrating and not much fun.
If it's fun you want instead of car completely under drierv control, the you need a C2. But the if you want SAFETY driving on marginal surfaces buy the 997.2 C4S and open the clutch circuit when you desire fun, not safety.
Weird, just WEIRD! Buy a C4S and then complain of the R/awd functionality.
Most of these attempts were with the PDK in manual mode. These were both in first and second gear.
Couldn't test any high-speed corners
Shame, that. the front clutch never engages above ~20-25 MPH, and certainly not when the front traction coefficient should be dedicated to lateral forces.
and wouldn't feel comfortable doing that on the road with a car I've never driven before anyway. The car was pretty fast, but didn't feel that much faster than my '06 Cayman S, which was very surprising. It was faster, but I guess the weight of the car and the two friends I had with me had negative affects on acceleration. It got around corners without much fuss and had very high limits. But my final word on rotating it with the throttle, on the street, is that it's doable, but not very accessible to me with my limited skills.
Unfortunately I was not able to drive the C2s back to back because it was being driven to a potential buyer for a test drive. However, even if they had one there, I probably wouldn't have bothered since it wasl also a PDK. I hear the newer PDK is better... I don't care.
After leaving the Porsche Dealership, following a nice understanding conversation with my sales guy, I drove down to the Subaru dealership to try a BRZ.
I was able to get the BRZ to rotate with the throttle. The engine power was pretty disappointing, but not as weak as I thought it would be based on reviews I've read. I drove it with the Stability Control (or whatever Subaru calls it) off but during one rotation, it felt like it came back on when I got it really sideways. I thought it was completely defeatable, but I could swear that it started braking and cutting throttle. I was not able to duplicate that situation. The stock tires were crappy, but fun. The chassis was really good. Seats comfortable and supportive. The interior was, well, Subaru-y. The engine sounds like a blender filled with concrete block bits... thanks for pumping that sound into the interior Subaru! Yuk. It felt very coarse too.
I'm happy I have the funds to be shopping for another Porsche, but if I didn't, I'd probably buy one of these, even with the raspy engine.
I took my Cayman S back over the same roads and was able to slide it around the 180's with snow tires with the PSM turned off. I love that car. Look forward to trying this with a 911 C2s.
I will continue shopping for a 987.2 Cayman S or a 997.2 911 C2 or C2s. I'd love a GT3, but I think it's a little too extreme for a daily driver in Colorado.
Thank you all SOOO much for your support
Today I stopped by my local Porsche dealership to drive a 2010 911 C4s PDK at 6,100 ft elevation. Here's the spoiler... I hated it. Why'd I hate it? PDK and AWD. The PDK was VERY slow shifting in manual mode. I drove it without a salesman... who by the way was very nice. I kept the transmission in manual model to help me apply smooth consistent power for my throttle rotation attempts. I had the traction control off for almost the entire test drive.
In tight 180 degree turns, I had to really toss it around, and time the throttle mashing precisely to get it to even begin to rotate.
But. Other than no "fun" factor did the car follow the correct "line"..??
It was frustrating and not much fun.
If it's fun you want instead of car completely under drierv control, the you need a C2. But the if you want SAFETY driving on marginal surfaces buy the 997.2 C4S and open the clutch circuit when you desire fun, not safety.
Weird, just WEIRD! Buy a C4S and then complain of the R/awd functionality.
Most of these attempts were with the PDK in manual mode. These were both in first and second gear.
Couldn't test any high-speed corners
Shame, that. the front clutch never engages above ~20-25 MPH, and certainly not when the front traction coefficient should be dedicated to lateral forces.
and wouldn't feel comfortable doing that on the road with a car I've never driven before anyway. The car was pretty fast, but didn't feel that much faster than my '06 Cayman S, which was very surprising. It was faster, but I guess the weight of the car and the two friends I had with me had negative affects on acceleration. It got around corners without much fuss and had very high limits. But my final word on rotating it with the throttle, on the street, is that it's doable, but not very accessible to me with my limited skills.
Unfortunately I was not able to drive the C2s back to back because it was being driven to a potential buyer for a test drive. However, even if they had one there, I probably wouldn't have bothered since it wasl also a PDK. I hear the newer PDK is better... I don't care.
After leaving the Porsche Dealership, following a nice understanding conversation with my sales guy, I drove down to the Subaru dealership to try a BRZ.
I was able to get the BRZ to rotate with the throttle. The engine power was pretty disappointing, but not as weak as I thought it would be based on reviews I've read. I drove it with the Stability Control (or whatever Subaru calls it) off but during one rotation, it felt like it came back on when I got it really sideways. I thought it was completely defeatable, but I could swear that it started braking and cutting throttle. I was not able to duplicate that situation. The stock tires were crappy, but fun. The chassis was really good. Seats comfortable and supportive. The interior was, well, Subaru-y. The engine sounds like a blender filled with concrete block bits... thanks for pumping that sound into the interior Subaru! Yuk. It felt very coarse too.
I'm happy I have the funds to be shopping for another Porsche, but if I didn't, I'd probably buy one of these, even with the raspy engine.
I took my Cayman S back over the same roads and was able to slide it around the 180's with snow tires with the PSM turned off. I love that car. Look forward to trying this with a 911 C2s.
I will continue shopping for a 987.2 Cayman S or a 997.2 911 C2 or C2s. I'd love a GT3, but I think it's a little too extreme for a daily driver in Colorado.
Thank you all SOOO much for your support
01-12-2013, 08:02 PM
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wwest...
>>But. Other than no "fun" factor did the car follow the correct "line"..?? <<
Well, as I as I said, I was not able to rotate the care in the corner to get it pointed to the next straightaway. I think that would be faster. But, even though I didn't like it, I can imagine that I might be faster in a 4S than a RWD Porsche... but I don't necessarily care about faster, but about learning to drive better and having fun. My opinions and preferences of course. I am not trying to make any statement about the 4S or those who own them. Just saying, that for the brief time I spend in one... with PDK... that it wasn't for me.
>>If it's fun you want instead of car completely under driver control, the you need a C2.<<
I want fun, and the challenge. Of course, that is competing with the desire to be able to get around in the winter in CO. I wouldn't give up the fun for the Snow-ability, as I've been driving a Cayman S in the winter here for four years. not optimal, but workable. I'm hoping for something that might be as fun, but better in the snow. As several have suggested, maybe a C2S with limited slip or GT3, either with good snowtires would be a good compromise. Of course its a balancing act and there is no right answer. That said, I really appreciate your and others input.
>>...SAFETY driving on marginal surfaces buy the 997.2 C4S and open the clutch circuit when you desire fun...<<
Open the clutch circuit? What do you mean, I can pull a fuse, or something and prevent the 997.2 C4s from pumping torque to the front wheels? Please elaborate!
>>Weird, just WEIRD! Buy a C4S and then complain of the R/awd functionality.<<
Huh? I didn't buy it, just test drove it. And, it had fabulous control almost took too good care of me. I want to get a little sideways, I don't care about being the fastest around the track but the one with the biggest grin from the driver engagement.
>>Shame, that. the front clutch never engages above ~20-25 MPH, and certainly not when the front traction coefficient should be dedicated to lateral forces.<<
That seems curious. When I'm driving up my gravel driveway in the snow, I'd hope the car sends some goodness to the front wheels when the rear ones slip. I'd be happy if it kept out of my business when cornering, but that seems like a trade-off too. The several Audi's I've owned seemed to be very happy to pull me through the corners in the snow with the front wheels when the rear's had less traction. I'd be very curious to know what targets the Porsche 997.2 AWD engineers had when developing the system.
You have definately piqued my interest in trying a C4s with a manual transmission to see if it's something I'm interested in. They are hard to find around here though. I'd say about 70% of the cars I see for sale are PDKs.
There is a local 997.1 C2S that I'll try to drive this week.
And, if I find a 997.1 GT3 in my price range, it will be VERY very hard to not just buy it and then order a spare set of wheels with Nokian Hakkapeliittas and call it good.
Thanks again for the input,
Paul
>>But. Other than no "fun" factor did the car follow the correct "line"..?? <<
Well, as I as I said, I was not able to rotate the care in the corner to get it pointed to the next straightaway. I think that would be faster. But, even though I didn't like it, I can imagine that I might be faster in a 4S than a RWD Porsche... but I don't necessarily care about faster, but about learning to drive better and having fun. My opinions and preferences of course. I am not trying to make any statement about the 4S or those who own them. Just saying, that for the brief time I spend in one... with PDK... that it wasn't for me.
>>If it's fun you want instead of car completely under driver control, the you need a C2.<<
I want fun, and the challenge. Of course, that is competing with the desire to be able to get around in the winter in CO. I wouldn't give up the fun for the Snow-ability, as I've been driving a Cayman S in the winter here for four years. not optimal, but workable. I'm hoping for something that might be as fun, but better in the snow. As several have suggested, maybe a C2S with limited slip or GT3, either with good snowtires would be a good compromise. Of course its a balancing act and there is no right answer. That said, I really appreciate your and others input.
>>...SAFETY driving on marginal surfaces buy the 997.2 C4S and open the clutch circuit when you desire fun...<<
Open the clutch circuit? What do you mean, I can pull a fuse, or something and prevent the 997.2 C4s from pumping torque to the front wheels? Please elaborate!
>>Weird, just WEIRD! Buy a C4S and then complain of the R/awd functionality.<<
Huh? I didn't buy it, just test drove it. And, it had fabulous control almost took too good care of me. I want to get a little sideways, I don't care about being the fastest around the track but the one with the biggest grin from the driver engagement.
>>Shame, that. the front clutch never engages above ~20-25 MPH, and certainly not when the front traction coefficient should be dedicated to lateral forces.<<
That seems curious. When I'm driving up my gravel driveway in the snow, I'd hope the car sends some goodness to the front wheels when the rear ones slip. I'd be happy if it kept out of my business when cornering, but that seems like a trade-off too. The several Audi's I've owned seemed to be very happy to pull me through the corners in the snow with the front wheels when the rear's had less traction. I'd be very curious to know what targets the Porsche 997.2 AWD engineers had when developing the system.
You have definately piqued my interest in trying a C4s with a manual transmission to see if it's something I'm interested in. They are hard to find around here though. I'd say about 70% of the cars I see for sale are PDKs.
There is a local 997.1 C2S that I'll try to drive this week.
And, if I find a 997.1 GT3 in my price range, it will be VERY very hard to not just buy it and then order a spare set of wheels with Nokian Hakkapeliittas and call it good.
Thanks again for the input,
Paul
01-12-2013, 08:11 PM
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Oooh... the 997.1 GT3 is what I really want.
For your question, I assume the 991 is irrelevant. I'd go with a 997.1 GT3, snow or even studded snow tires and enjoy something that few people on the planet will ever experience or even understand. What's the worst that could happen -- you'd have a great track car, a great summer car and a mediocre transport when there's snow on the ground. Cheers,
If I find one that I can afford, it will be really hard not to jump on it.
Paul
01-13-2013, 06:18 AM
#24
Drifting
wwest...
>>But. Other than no "fun" factor did the car follow the correct "line"..?? <<
Well, as I as I said, I was not able to rotate the care in the corner to get it pointed to the next straightaway. I think that would be faster. But, even though I didn't like it, I can imagine that I might be faster in a 4S than a RWD Porsche... but I don't necessarily care about faster, but about learning to drive better and having fun. My opinions and preferences of course. I am not trying to make any statement about the 4S or those who own them. Just saying, that for the brief time I spend in one... with PDK... that it wasn't for me.
>>If it's fun you want instead of car completely under driver control, the you need a C2.<<
I want fun, and the challenge. Of course, that is competing with the desire to be able to get around in the winter in CO. I wouldn't give up the fun for the Snow-ability, as I've been driving a Cayman S in the winter here for four years. not optimal, but workable. I'm hoping for something that might be as fun, but better in the snow. As several have suggested, maybe a C2S with limited slip or GT3, either with good snowtires would be a good compromise. Of course its a balancing act and there is no right answer. That said, I really appreciate your and others input.
>>...SAFETY driving on marginal surfaces buy the 997.2 C4S and open the clutch circuit when you desire fun...<<
Open the clutch circuit? What do you mean, I can pull a fuse, or something and prevent the 997.2 C4s from pumping torque to the front wheels? Please elaborate!
>>Weird, just WEIRD! Buy a C4S and then complain of the R/awd functionality.<<
Huh? I didn't buy it, just test drove it. And, it had fabulous control almost took too good care of me. I want to get a little sideways, I don't care about being the fastest around the track but the one with the biggest grin from the driver engagement.
>>Shame, that. the front clutch never engages above ~20-25 MPH, and certainly not when the front traction coefficient should be dedicated to lateral forces.<<
That seems curious. When I'm driving up my gravel driveway in the snow, I'd hope the car sends some goodness to the front wheels....
when the rear ones slip.
The new 997.2 does not "wait" for wheelspin/slip, as you start off in low speed it will pre-emptively engage front drive co-measurate with the level of acceleration you use, providing you're moving straight ahead. Just as with any 4WD system the front drive cannot remain locked into drive, absent a consistently slippery roadbed surface, without damage to the driveline components.
...when the rear ones slip.
Should you accelerate hard enough to require 50/50 distribution you might still encounter wheelspin/slip (those NASTY laws of physics) in which case TC will activate and INSTANTLY dethrottle the engine while also braking the rears.
I'd be happy if it kept out of my business when cornering, but that seems like a trade-off too.
When accelerate HARD into a corner below 30MPH the system will automatically reduce drive to the front so as to dedicate the front tire traction to lateral use.
The several Audi's I've owned seemed to be very happy to pull me through the corners in the snow with the front wheels when the rear's had less traction. I'd be very curious to know what targets the Porsche 997.2 AWD engineers had when developing the system.
Aren't Audi's F/awd..??
You have definately piqued my interest in trying a C4s with a manual transmission to see if it's something I'm interested in. They are hard to find around here though. I'd say about 70% of the cars I see for sale are PDKs.
There is a local 997.1 C2S that I'll try to drive this week.
And, if I find a 997.1 GT3 in my price range, it will be VERY very hard to not just buy it and then order a spare set of wheels with Nokian Hakkapeliittas and call it good.
Thanks again for the input,
Paul
>>But. Other than no "fun" factor did the car follow the correct "line"..?? <<
Well, as I as I said, I was not able to rotate the care in the corner to get it pointed to the next straightaway. I think that would be faster. But, even though I didn't like it, I can imagine that I might be faster in a 4S than a RWD Porsche... but I don't necessarily care about faster, but about learning to drive better and having fun. My opinions and preferences of course. I am not trying to make any statement about the 4S or those who own them. Just saying, that for the brief time I spend in one... with PDK... that it wasn't for me.
>>If it's fun you want instead of car completely under driver control, the you need a C2.<<
I want fun, and the challenge. Of course, that is competing with the desire to be able to get around in the winter in CO. I wouldn't give up the fun for the Snow-ability, as I've been driving a Cayman S in the winter here for four years. not optimal, but workable. I'm hoping for something that might be as fun, but better in the snow. As several have suggested, maybe a C2S with limited slip or GT3, either with good snowtires would be a good compromise. Of course its a balancing act and there is no right answer. That said, I really appreciate your and others input.
>>...SAFETY driving on marginal surfaces buy the 997.2 C4S and open the clutch circuit when you desire fun...<<
Open the clutch circuit? What do you mean, I can pull a fuse, or something and prevent the 997.2 C4s from pumping torque to the front wheels? Please elaborate!
>>Weird, just WEIRD! Buy a C4S and then complain of the R/awd functionality.<<
Huh? I didn't buy it, just test drove it. And, it had fabulous control almost took too good care of me. I want to get a little sideways, I don't care about being the fastest around the track but the one with the biggest grin from the driver engagement.
>>Shame, that. the front clutch never engages above ~20-25 MPH, and certainly not when the front traction coefficient should be dedicated to lateral forces.<<
That seems curious. When I'm driving up my gravel driveway in the snow, I'd hope the car sends some goodness to the front wheels....
when the rear ones slip.
The new 997.2 does not "wait" for wheelspin/slip, as you start off in low speed it will pre-emptively engage front drive co-measurate with the level of acceleration you use, providing you're moving straight ahead. Just as with any 4WD system the front drive cannot remain locked into drive, absent a consistently slippery roadbed surface, without damage to the driveline components.
...when the rear ones slip.
Should you accelerate hard enough to require 50/50 distribution you might still encounter wheelspin/slip (those NASTY laws of physics) in which case TC will activate and INSTANTLY dethrottle the engine while also braking the rears.
I'd be happy if it kept out of my business when cornering, but that seems like a trade-off too.
When accelerate HARD into a corner below 30MPH the system will automatically reduce drive to the front so as to dedicate the front tire traction to lateral use.
The several Audi's I've owned seemed to be very happy to pull me through the corners in the snow with the front wheels when the rear's had less traction. I'd be very curious to know what targets the Porsche 997.2 AWD engineers had when developing the system.
Aren't Audi's F/awd..??
You have definately piqued my interest in trying a C4s with a manual transmission to see if it's something I'm interested in. They are hard to find around here though. I'd say about 70% of the cars I see for sale are PDKs.
There is a local 997.1 C2S that I'll try to drive this week.
And, if I find a 997.1 GT3 in my price range, it will be VERY very hard to not just buy it and then order a spare set of wheels with Nokian Hakkapeliittas and call it good.
Thanks again for the input,
Paul
OFF/AUTO/ON
Absent track time (of no interest to me) there is no reason to have the front drive engaged except on suspected or actual low-traction surfaces.
01-13-2013, 10:15 AM
#25
While having the pdk transmission in manual mode, was the car in sport or sport plus mode? Manual shifting with the pdk transmission is anything but slow in sport and sport plus modes.
Last edited by hakaida702; 01-13-2013 at 04:09 PM.
01-14-2013, 08:57 PM
#26
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01-14-2013, 09:51 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
I live in Colorado where we get regular snow and I travel to the mountains often... I like the idea of a AWD sports car, as long as it isn't a fun-killer... I want to do Track Days (PCA DE) regularly and I want to make sure I get a car that will allow me to rotate it in corners with the throttle.
01-14-2013, 10:41 PM
#28
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God and Momma
To answer your question, I've competed in 60 or so Auto-X events over the past 25 years. In the few PCA Auto-X events I've attended, in Colorado Springs and Denver, I have placed somewhere between FTD and 4th overall depending on who shows up. Last October in La Junta, with the skilled instruction of Kathy Fricke, by the end of the two day event, in my bone stock 2006 Cayman S, I was turning 64-second laps. Indeed that was my first and only track day. I sort of accidentally landed in the experienced group, and was having no trouble passing folks, in similar and faster cars. I had a blast that weekend and want to do that a LOT more often.
All of my previous Auto-X experience was with FWD and AWD vehicles. This is the first car that I've owned where I could rotate the car in the corner by squeezing the throttle, rather than lifting. I don't want to give that up.
I know, there are many, many more folks on this board that are far more skilled and experienced than me. That's why I posed the original question here.
As to the winter driving, I've driven the Cayman daily, rain, snow or shine for the past 5 years in Colorado. I haven't had to pray to God or call my momma... YET. My previous Audi's were definitely better winter cars. And, indeed, I am looking for a better winter experience and don't want to give up the fun. I know this is a tall order. I hope this is a matter of a limited-slip and better winter tires.
And, I'll say again, I have yet to drive an C4s with a stick. I might be real happy with it.
Maybe someday we can meet at one of these events!
01-15-2013, 02:50 AM
#29
Rennlist Member
Try a 997.1 C4/C2, it's a lot more raw than 997.2 with PDK and feels a lot more like your Cayman with a lot more power, and easier to rotate vs. 997.2 C4S where its AWD kicks in a lot more than 997.1.
Ultimately, if you're after most raw, sporty drive, gotto get GT3.
Ultimately, if you're after most raw, sporty drive, gotto get GT3.
01-15-2013, 02:43 PM
#30
Drifting
"..its AWD kicks in..."
I would bet major money that with 997.2 series above 25 MPH it would be PSM, VSC/TC, that "kicks in". I just can't see front drive being useful other than at lower speed with high engine TORQUE available at the wheels.
Keep in mind that as of now NOTHING can be done to detect upcoming wheelspin/slip arrising from the use of excessive engine torque so only reactive measures, such as TC, can be used.
Yaw sensors, luckily, can be used to pre-emptively react before excessive "lateral" forces are attained.
Porsche, in the 997.2, makes use of much the same technique as Caddy did with the FWD Northstar engine. Caddy automatically detuned the engine for low speed acceleration. Porsche, instead, moves some of the engine torque to the front wheels provided you are accelerating straight ahead. Turn tightly with the same level of acceleration and front drive torque will be reduced to the point that the yaw sensor will eventually activate VSC.