Test Drove a 2010 C2S, 2013 Boxster, and a 2013 S5 Cabrio back to back today.........
12-24-2012, 11:02 AM
#61
I have to agree. I drove a new Boxster S on the track over the summer. While it doesn't feel as solid as my 911 (not sure its supposed to) .... I have to admit I was very impressed
12-24-2012, 11:16 AM
#62
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Interesting you mentioned the visibility out of 911 twice. That's also one of the things that really liked about my 997 test drives compared to other cars.
I'm sure the Boxster and Cayman are great cars. Call it shallow, call it uninformed, but neither are 911's...period. Nobody DREAMS of owning a Boxster.
I'm sure the Boxster and Cayman are great cars. Call it shallow, call it uninformed, but neither are 911's...period. Nobody DREAMS of owning a Boxster.
12-24-2012, 05:47 PM
#63
Rennlist Member
I've driven a few...
Good thread, have enjoyed reading through it.
I'll limit my comments to Porsches and Audis, of which I own or have owned 3 of each. They include:
Audi: 1998 A4 (B5 chassis) 1.8T 5sp man, 2001 S4 (also B5) 2.7biT man, and 2002 A6 2.7biT tip. Still have the S4 w about 120k miles on it, chipped with GIAC at 20k miles and never looked back, has an AWE twin pipe catback exhaust as well.
Porsche: first owned a 2008 C2S coupe (997.1), 6sp man, sport chrono, rode 50k miles before trading in for 2012 C2GTS PDK, SPASM, PSE, LSD, etc, and have a garage queen a 1996 993tt with modded exhaust and chip.
I also did the Porsche Performance Driving School down in Birmingham in August, giving me track time in the 991 C2S w 6sp manual, new BoxsterS with PDK, and the Panamera GTS as well just for grins.
Agree with all comments about 997 of any vintage as a great DD. between my two 997s I have logged about 70k miles, all grinning, whether tepid daily commute speeds or weekend thrashing when constabulary not looking ;-). I have also autocrossed my GTS about a half dozen times with great pleasure and supreme confidence in the car (which is more than I can say for the skills of the driver!). I, too, drive my 997 year round and only keep her in the garage when there is frozen precip and/or lots of hydrated salt on the roads. Then I drive the S4 which has dedicated snow tires. The 997 simply has great acceleration, great handling, great long distance comfort, and is simply just great.
The 993tt? Go visit the 993 Turbo Forum for a taste of that religion! It is a wonderful car, more raw in its nonlinear throttle response and "retro feel" to me, demanding more respect and skill/attention to driving skills than the 997.2 C2GTS. Not better or worse IMHO simply a different driving experience in almost all aspects.
Love the Audi, too. Has been very reliable even tho I've driven it hard at times in the past (pre-Porsche!). Got beat off the line recently by a newer, V8 S4 but what the heck, he had more ponies than I did even when mine was new, and obviously a tip as well.
At driving school I found that the 991 C2S had more to give than I could safely take around the Barber track. Great car, wonderful acceleration and brakes. Helped by expert instructor telling me what to do. BoxsterS more forgiving re midengine and near-perfect front-rear balance, and I felt like I could push it near or to its limit around the track with some confidence. So maybe just right for many, but maybe not enough for some?
I also autocrossed the BoxsterS at the school, easier to handle than my 997.2 C2GTS under similar circumstances, ironically perhaps because of less brute power to the wheels, but the balance probably plays a big role as the GTS will understeer badly if the throttle is not managed gently into the turns, at least with me behind the wheel.
For completeness, the Panamera was very capable on the track, but it is big and heavy, and feels that way. Not what I would call nimble even if reasonably quick in a straight line and holds its own in the curves. Could also influence me that I can not fall in love with the look of the Panamera as much as I have tried to persuade myself.
Finally, I have either test-driven or "mini AX'd" a 997.1tt, a 997.2ttS, a 997.1 GT3RS, a 997.1C2, and a 997.1 C4S. All great cars. I would buy a GT3 in a heartbeat if I had no limit on funds or storage space. The TurboS was a power animal but has a lot of "refinements" between the driver, the engine, and the road, not sure it is the car for me. The 997.1tt was a very capable and fun car to drive but frankly not as smooth as my NA GTS and only a bit more powerful. The rest are in my view minor variations on what I have or do own.
Apologies if anyone got sleepy reading through this somewhat long post but I thought a few of you might find my comparisons and observations useful.
Jonathan
I'll limit my comments to Porsches and Audis, of which I own or have owned 3 of each. They include:
Audi: 1998 A4 (B5 chassis) 1.8T 5sp man, 2001 S4 (also B5) 2.7biT man, and 2002 A6 2.7biT tip. Still have the S4 w about 120k miles on it, chipped with GIAC at 20k miles and never looked back, has an AWE twin pipe catback exhaust as well.
Porsche: first owned a 2008 C2S coupe (997.1), 6sp man, sport chrono, rode 50k miles before trading in for 2012 C2GTS PDK, SPASM, PSE, LSD, etc, and have a garage queen a 1996 993tt with modded exhaust and chip.
I also did the Porsche Performance Driving School down in Birmingham in August, giving me track time in the 991 C2S w 6sp manual, new BoxsterS with PDK, and the Panamera GTS as well just for grins.
Agree with all comments about 997 of any vintage as a great DD. between my two 997s I have logged about 70k miles, all grinning, whether tepid daily commute speeds or weekend thrashing when constabulary not looking ;-). I have also autocrossed my GTS about a half dozen times with great pleasure and supreme confidence in the car (which is more than I can say for the skills of the driver!). I, too, drive my 997 year round and only keep her in the garage when there is frozen precip and/or lots of hydrated salt on the roads. Then I drive the S4 which has dedicated snow tires. The 997 simply has great acceleration, great handling, great long distance comfort, and is simply just great.
The 993tt? Go visit the 993 Turbo Forum for a taste of that religion! It is a wonderful car, more raw in its nonlinear throttle response and "retro feel" to me, demanding more respect and skill/attention to driving skills than the 997.2 C2GTS. Not better or worse IMHO simply a different driving experience in almost all aspects.
Love the Audi, too. Has been very reliable even tho I've driven it hard at times in the past (pre-Porsche!). Got beat off the line recently by a newer, V8 S4 but what the heck, he had more ponies than I did even when mine was new, and obviously a tip as well.
At driving school I found that the 991 C2S had more to give than I could safely take around the Barber track. Great car, wonderful acceleration and brakes. Helped by expert instructor telling me what to do. BoxsterS more forgiving re midengine and near-perfect front-rear balance, and I felt like I could push it near or to its limit around the track with some confidence. So maybe just right for many, but maybe not enough for some?
I also autocrossed the BoxsterS at the school, easier to handle than my 997.2 C2GTS under similar circumstances, ironically perhaps because of less brute power to the wheels, but the balance probably plays a big role as the GTS will understeer badly if the throttle is not managed gently into the turns, at least with me behind the wheel.
For completeness, the Panamera was very capable on the track, but it is big and heavy, and feels that way. Not what I would call nimble even if reasonably quick in a straight line and holds its own in the curves. Could also influence me that I can not fall in love with the look of the Panamera as much as I have tried to persuade myself.
Finally, I have either test-driven or "mini AX'd" a 997.1tt, a 997.2ttS, a 997.1 GT3RS, a 997.1C2, and a 997.1 C4S. All great cars. I would buy a GT3 in a heartbeat if I had no limit on funds or storage space. The TurboS was a power animal but has a lot of "refinements" between the driver, the engine, and the road, not sure it is the car for me. The 997.1tt was a very capable and fun car to drive but frankly not as smooth as my NA GTS and only a bit more powerful. The rest are in my view minor variations on what I have or do own.
Apologies if anyone got sleepy reading through this somewhat long post but I thought a few of you might find my comparisons and observations useful.
Jonathan
12-24-2012, 06:21 PM
#64
Racer
However, as handsome as the new Boxter is, I still do love the classic and timeless lines of a 911.
12-24-2012, 06:56 PM
#65
Burning Brakes
Jonathan,
Thanks for posting. Nice read. How would you compare your 2008 c2s to 991 c2s? What made you feel that 991 had more to give than you could take?
Perhaps its time to go test drive 991 myself
I kinda was turned off somewhat by 7sp manual and larger dimensions. I am sure it is a great car. I just need to give it a try I guess.
Thanks for posting. Nice read. How would you compare your 2008 c2s to 991 c2s? What made you feel that 991 had more to give than you could take?
Perhaps its time to go test drive 991 myself
I kinda was turned off somewhat by 7sp manual and larger dimensions. I am sure it is a great car. I just need to give it a try I guess.
12-24-2012, 07:47 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
[QUOTE=Papa Fittig
How would you compare your 2008 c2s to 991 c2s? What made you feel that 991 had more to give than you could take? [/QUOTE]
Papa Fittig,
I never drove my 2008 C2S on the track nor even AX, and in retrospect it scared the crap out of me when I first got behind the wheel and really put my foot down. Before that I thought that my S4 was a "performance" car. Sporty, yes. But the 911 is in a different league. So I'm sorry that I really do not have a solid basis of comparison between the 997.1 and the 991.
All I can say is that the 991 was very sure-footed on the track but I had to watch myself in the diving turns of the Barber track and on one hot lap came uncomfortably close to the edge on the #2-3 corkscrew if I recall the nomenclature correctly. In other words, I got confused and tried to power my way out of trouble instead of just letting up and went into a bit of a power slide instead of maintaining real control. No terrible consequences but nothing to be proud of. Like skiing down a mountain steeper than your talents warrant and getting away with it.
The BoxsterS on the other hand was more forgiving and I felt like I could literally throw it around with comparative impunity.
What I can compare head to head are my 2008 C2S and my 2012 C2GTS. The latter has palpably more power, and as much as I missed the "more connected" feel of the manual when I first got the PDK, the crisp shifts with computerized throttle blips are progressively addictive and I find myself (lazily perhaps) using the paddles less and less even when mashing the "only two" pedals. When I crave a clutch I go drive the 993tt!
My brother who has never owned a Porsche just sold his B6 NA V8 S4 cabrio, and I have advised him to test drive the new BoxsterS which I think he will love. He is a ragtop kind of guy (go figure - he lives in Chicago, where there are 2 seasons, winter and August), and given my observations of his driving style I think he will be happier with the Boxster (plus spending 30-40k less even with options).
I agree the 991 is big, my 997.2 feels a little smaller and my 993 feels smaller especially in the cockpit, more intimate by comparison to either. But time marches on and I do see the 991 as a natural progression in the evolution of the model, with pleasant improvements.
My bottom line: pick an era, a style, a power grade, and your favorite exterior/interior color combo, and drive the hell out of it. You cannot lose with the Porsche marque, in my view.
Jonathan
How would you compare your 2008 c2s to 991 c2s? What made you feel that 991 had more to give than you could take? [/QUOTE]
Papa Fittig,
I never drove my 2008 C2S on the track nor even AX, and in retrospect it scared the crap out of me when I first got behind the wheel and really put my foot down. Before that I thought that my S4 was a "performance" car. Sporty, yes. But the 911 is in a different league. So I'm sorry that I really do not have a solid basis of comparison between the 997.1 and the 991.
All I can say is that the 991 was very sure-footed on the track but I had to watch myself in the diving turns of the Barber track and on one hot lap came uncomfortably close to the edge on the #2-3 corkscrew if I recall the nomenclature correctly. In other words, I got confused and tried to power my way out of trouble instead of just letting up and went into a bit of a power slide instead of maintaining real control. No terrible consequences but nothing to be proud of. Like skiing down a mountain steeper than your talents warrant and getting away with it.
The BoxsterS on the other hand was more forgiving and I felt like I could literally throw it around with comparative impunity.
What I can compare head to head are my 2008 C2S and my 2012 C2GTS. The latter has palpably more power, and as much as I missed the "more connected" feel of the manual when I first got the PDK, the crisp shifts with computerized throttle blips are progressively addictive and I find myself (lazily perhaps) using the paddles less and less even when mashing the "only two" pedals. When I crave a clutch I go drive the 993tt!
My brother who has never owned a Porsche just sold his B6 NA V8 S4 cabrio, and I have advised him to test drive the new BoxsterS which I think he will love. He is a ragtop kind of guy (go figure - he lives in Chicago, where there are 2 seasons, winter and August), and given my observations of his driving style I think he will be happier with the Boxster (plus spending 30-40k less even with options).
I agree the 991 is big, my 997.2 feels a little smaller and my 993 feels smaller especially in the cockpit, more intimate by comparison to either. But time marches on and I do see the 991 as a natural progression in the evolution of the model, with pleasant improvements.
My bottom line: pick an era, a style, a power grade, and your favorite exterior/interior color combo, and drive the hell out of it. You cannot lose with the Porsche marque, in my view.
Jonathan
12-24-2012, 09:36 PM
#67
In the end, I went with the 911 GTS cab because I got a great deal and it is an extremely capable sports car that I would want to own long term. I was not sure that I'd be happy with the Boxster S long term, and the dealer was not willing to discount the car at all since they were just being launched. The net price difference ended up not that far apart between the two cars as the Boxster S gets up over $90,000+ nicely equipped
Nicely equipped? That car has $30K in options or 50% of the base sticker price.
An apples for apples comparison will be a base 991or 997 against the 2013 Cayman S equipped with sports chrono and sports suspension. I believe that the launch vehicles will be in dealers' showrooms in April.
Nicely equipped?
That car has $30K in options or 50% of the base sticker price. An apples for apples comparison will be a base 991or 997 against the 2013 Cayman S equipped with sports chrono and sports suspension. I believe that the launch vehicles will be in dealers' showrooms in April.
12-25-2012, 12:57 AM
#68
Rennlist Member
In the end, I went with the 911 GTS cab because I got a great deal and it is an extremely capable sports car that I would want to own long term. I was not sure that I'd be happy with the Boxster S long term, and the dealer was not willing to discount the car at all since they were just being launched. The net price difference ended up not that far apart between the two cars as the Boxster S gets up over $90,000+ nicely equipped
Nicely equipped? That car has $30K in options or 50% of the base sticker price.
An apples for apples comparison will be a base 991or 997 against the 2013 Cayman S equipped with sports chrono and sports suspension. I believe that the launch vehicles will be in dealers' showrooms in April.
Nicely equipped?
That car has $30K in options or 50% of the base sticker price. An apples for apples comparison will be a base 991or 997 against the 2013 Cayman S equipped with sports chrono and sports suspension. I believe that the launch vehicles will be in dealers' showrooms in April.
12-26-2012, 02:49 PM
#70
AutoX
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Great thread and this is my first posting. I had a '99 911 until 2005 then switched to a BMW and now am looking for either a 2013 911 or Boxster S. I test drove both on Monday with PDK. Much tougher decision than I had thought (had assume the 911 would win hands down). I feel deciding between two great cars comes down to personal preference since they now both have essentially the same engine, transmission, and interior. What surprised me was that around town and in winding back roads, the Boxster S felt more nimble and easier to drive. I agree with one of the posts that a 911 comes into her own on a track. The bigger car will also be best for long highway trips. So I am going back for a second test drive... Any suggestions on whether using a convertible as a daily driver year round in Connecticut makes sense?
12-26-2012, 03:16 PM
#71
Drifting
Re Cab Ownership
I've found after owning two BMW cabs that the initial ownership period to be fun then it gets tiresome over time. I drove a BMW e36 m3 cab for 10 yrs prior to the C2S and a z3 prior to that. Although I enjoyed and miss those top down days during the cooler months in Austin I do not miss the interior cabin noise from the constantly squeaking top. It ultimately drove me to get a coupe this time after 2 cabs previously. I've also found the smaller interior of the Carrera to be intimate enough that with the windows down and sunroof back that I have plenty of open air between myself and the road without feeling like everyone on the same road has a private view of my interior cab space. Now with the Porsche cabs you will get a more forgiving suspension then a coupe... that can be a plus as we start to develop back problems. Plus with age and degraded hearing I may yet find me back in a cab some years down the road.
12-27-2012, 04:03 AM
#72
Rennlist Member
12-27-2012, 06:28 AM
#73
Great thread and this is my first posting. I had a '99 911 until 2005 then switched to a BMW and now am looking for either a 2013 911 or Boxster S. I test drove both on Monday with PDK. Much tougher decision than I had thought (had assume the 911 would win hands down). I feel deciding between two great cars comes down to personal preference since they now both have essentially the same engine, transmission, and interior. What surprised me was that around town and in winding back roads, the Boxster S felt more nimble and easier to drive. I agree with one of the posts that a 911 comes into her own on a track. The bigger car will also be best for long highway trips. So I am going back for a second test drive... Any suggestions on whether using a convertible as a daily driver year round in Connecticut makes sense?
It does occur to me that I'm driving a cab in Summer though!!
Tom
