simsgw

I've been pretty much off the forum since Cindy died, but friends are trying hard to get me involved in activities outside the house. I've driven from our home north of Los Angeles to San Diego, then to San Francisco, and around this county to various tracks. One set of friends are the Grand Prix region of PCA and they persuaded me to come teach for them.

Teaching always was very satisfying, so that won me over in lieu of sailing a square rigger or going to baseball games or building a kit car or ... well, any of those good ideas for some widower somewhere. Now I've made all those trips and been to tracks to teach and exhausted myself trying to teach one advanced student in Yellow group, another in Blue group, and run my own car for demo purposes in Red group. (Turns out the fourth sessions for Green just barely gave enough time to chug a bottle of water and pee before I had to get back in another car.) You have to find your limits to know them. Mine is one in-car student per track day.

All very distracting, but a moment for decision approaches. I need to verbalize the choices among friends who love cars, and I look forward to discussion that may show options I've overlooked. My neurosurgeon says certain very annoying symptoms are caused by the mid-range vibration of my 997.2 reaching my spine. A field test using egg-crate foam to shield my lumbar while sitting on sheepskin confirmed the diagnosis. (What a picture. A car renowned for providing road feel and the owner sitting on a loosey-goosey cushion to protect his butt from the whole experience.) I drive that way every day now.

Three... no, really five possibilities:

1. Buy a salvage example of the most comfortable seat type and have it upholstered in extra thick memory foam. The sport seat served standard on the Boxster Spyder seemed very comfortable. I could use one of those as the structure. Call that the base option. Might cause problems with electric seat circuits and my computer, but surely manageable.
2. Buy a 2013 991. Might have reduced the peccant vibration enough to solve the problem, but after road tests I could try to persuade Porsche Exclusive to provide a driver's seat with aforesaid extra foam.
3. Buy a GTS or similar 2012 and do as before with an aftermarket supplier. New cars are still available and the selection is broad, though fixed.
4. Buy a GT3 or Turbo and say screw it: My back eventually will give out completely, so I might as well enjoy a monster track car while I can still drive. Used of course, but I'll pick one with ample warranty left and buy through a dealer I trust.
5. Screw driving. Crack open Jim Croce's bottle and bring back some Cindy time so she can sit on the front porch swing with me until we're both done.

The only one I really crave is that last option, but Croce never provided details, so I'm limited to the first four. The null option is to buy something floopy like a Jaguar or just stay home and sit in that swing by myself. Find me a bridge or a tall building please.

On the other hand, I won't enjoy any Porsche if it gets to where the vibration keeps me from enjoying monthly canyon runs and going to teach at track events. The seat is the controllable variable in those options. Any of them can be fitted with an aftermarket seat if I find the best Porsche seat still won't shield my spine from the frequencies doing me in.

I'll start it off by noting that I drove a GT3 a couple of months ago when that dealer wanted to cheer me up while they worked on my C2S. They just gave me the keys and told me mine would be done in a hour or so. I expected race-car harshness and a fifteen-minute limit on my fun even before these new symptoms had appeared. Instead, I found it very smooth and... well, I was grieving. Details have faded, but the word 'silky' remains. Can it be possible that the GT3's actually have less mid-range vibration than a C2S, despite the stiffer suspension overall? I know it's feasible from an engineering perspective; it just never occurred to me they might have achieved it in a production car.

Also, that baseline option is to modify this current Carrera now that it almost has reached the warranty date. I already added sport-mode and GT2 brake ducts and other brake enhancements, but I'm not really a modding enthusiast. Going that way would be cheaper, even with a sinking fund against driveline failure, but it would just be labor for me since modding is not a hobby for me. Picking a new or newer car has its own ration of pleasure and I'm not saving the money anymore for Cindy's security when I'm gone, so why not?

Other thoughts?

Gary

Edgy01

As a 'middle aged' 911 guy now (and starting in my teens) I have to say that moving to a cabriolet was the solution--and the A.S.S. help tremendously. Porsche specifically dampens the cabriolets more than the coupes because they recognize that it's all about the feel to cab owners. I don't believe that I have given up control, either.

With my back, I had to find something that works. Here's my back--with more titanium than a GT2...

USMC_DS1

+1 A.S.S (Adaptive Sport Seats)

I had my 1st bout of sciatic back pain earlier this year so I've become overly aware of seating comfort as of late. Of all the cars I've driven/owned the Porsche Adaptive Sport Seats are the most comfortable... even more comfortable than my wife's Lexus and especially my prior BMW's. BTW, my old 540i had power comfort seat which was close to sitting on pillows but it's also about proper support in all the right places which is where the Porsche A.S.S wins hands down. That's where the fully adjustable range of tuning in those Adaptive Sport Seats allows me to dial in the seat to my exact needs... conforming to me like a cushy glove. So for this reason I prefer to drive the 911 especially on those long trips out of town. Well there is the performance factor as well. See if your p-dealer will allow you to test drive a car with A.S.S for an extended period... like an hour. Perhaps you could get a GT3 with some Adaptive Sport Seats added afterwards.

Mike in CA

PM sent.

alexb76

First off, welcome back!

Sorry to hear about your back problems contributing to a car decision...

GT3 obviously would give you most enjoyment, but is it worth the pain? You are the only one to decide... The engagement of manual clutch also doesn't help the back, so that should be considered too. The fact that your GT3 drive seemed ok, is a factor. I am not so sure if there's less vibration at certain mid range of the engine, but definitely GT3 in the longer run will be harsher on your back due to bump impacts on the road.

GTS vs. 997.2 may not provide much difference in terms of ride.

Keeping the 997, you might wanna try the GT2 bucket seats, they are by far the most supportive and I actually find them very comfortable, BUT, it's hard to get in/out, and I am not sure if your knees/back are fine with that. I highly suggest a ride in a car with GT2 *Leather* seats (Alcantara has less cushions), and see how you find it. It definitely holds the spine with the best support of all seats. It also TRANSFORMS the car handling much closer to a go-cart feel, you just feel how the car is moving under you and can really contribute to driving enjoyment. As much as it was expensive, it was one of the best investments I've made in the car (and you can always resell it for same price)!

As much as I dislike the 991, I think it provides the most comfortable ride amongst the cars you mentioned. I might tend to stick with a Carrera (instead of Carrera S), to get the 19inch wheels, and then get the most comfort features that suits your needs.

Good luck and know that Cindy is looking over you and would love you to enjoy the rest of your days to the fullest.

simsgw

You know, I was going to ask if no one mentioned the Cab. I had speculated that it might help, but didn't want to prompt the answer. I'll arrange to test a 997 Cab and a 991 Cab as well. I'm not entirely thrilled with some of the design directions in the 991, but I have to admit my ability to detect the differences is deteriorating with my spinal cord. My sense of touch is eroding. (Your x-ray looks like a diagram of what they want to do to my back, just perhaps a little more ad hoc. Emergency situation?)

If the combined effect of the 991 changes and the more tolerant Cab chassis is what's needed to let me keep driving a Porsche, then I'm not going to complain.

I am even considering a PDK. Mike and Dr Dias rave about theirs. I borrowed one overnight during the last service, and found nothing to complain of except having to learn new habits while traversing the San Diego Freeway at rush hour. And... if I may confess... this problem may be affecting my coordination. I missed a shift at the track day on Monday. Might be time to surrender to computer-controlled manuals before I make a mistake and trash a gearbox or an engine. At some point, the sensuous entertainment of manual shifting can be spoiled by the fear of damaging one's toy.

Gary

Zeus993

Love my cab. Great to see you back Gary.

simsgw

Two excellent suggestions. To the first, I think this dealer will help with extended test drives. They sold us the C2S and everyone liked Cindy. Several of them were quite upset when they asked how she was and learned she had died since my last visit. They've invited me to social rallies and other events to get me out of myself. On top of all that, they know we never pretended interest to cadge a ride. In other words, if I say I'm planning a purchase, they will believe me and should be willing to do anything reasonable to help me pick the right combination of platform and seat.

I see no reason their own shop couldn't change the seat in whichever model I choose. For a price of course. I find prices less gripping than they were when I was spending Cindy's inheritance.

What I really need is a test hour or so in a GT2, another in some model with adaptive sport seats, and a third in a 991 Cab. I believe they have a Speedster on the lot with A.S.S. but it wouldn't be reasonable to put an hour's driving on a car that expensive. (Still up around 200k I think. Up in the range where the bucks are going for ephemera that don't interest me, so I can't pretend real interest in buying it. Maybe the seats, but not the car.) But surely they have another unit on the lot somewhere with A.S.S. Weren't those seats standard in the Boxster Spyder?

Hmmm. Checked their website. They do have a GT2 RS that's been breathed on by Shark Werks for only $211k. Don't think I'd be interested in that either. Probably snap my neck just testing it. Can't tell whether they have a Spyder on hand; the guy who tends their website doesn't seem to code for that. Not surprising, since they allow "Boxster Coupe" to appear. Sigh.

No matter, if they don't have something with A.S. seats, then they can check the L.A. area and find one. Sounds like a good first sequence of tests:

1. GT3
2. GT2
3. 991 Cab
4. Something with adaptive sport seats

That's a list to set a salesman's heart racing, isn't it? But I'll be up front about not planning to go as deep into six figures as that list might suggest. Expressing an intention to buy from a particular dealer always loosens the discussion -- though it also makes it even more wrenching if you have occasion to stand and walk during a later negotiation. Should be fine if I can get my heart into it.

I agree with Alex about the GTS not riding significantly different than other 997's. It's just a look I want to consider. Along with natural leather. If I'm trying to pamper myself, I have no reason left to stint. But those all come second to usability. I'm a Scot and an engineer, how else could I look at it? So first I want that series of platform and seating tests. Then we'll think about appearance.

simsgw

Thank you sincerely. Hope I can keep my head out of a bucket and stick around for a while.

May I ask the Cab owners a simple question that requires thought? When you step from your Cab into a Coupe of similar age, do you notice any change in vibration and harshness? Is it pronounced enough to catch your attention without expressly looking for it as I will be?

Gary

Edgy01

There is a definite difference in the ride between a coupe and cab--all other things being equal.

f4 plt

As a member of the bad back club with at least 5 totally degenerated discs etc. I faced the same decision. First, either the adaptive sport seats or the sport bucket are the way to go. The sport bucket is the most supportive on my back. Second it to go from manual to PDK so I'm not constantly rotating my lower spine /trunk working the clutch. My 997.2 has PASM so I can adjust the stiffness of the suspension depending on back condition. These adjustments allow me to enjoy the cars daily and on those occasions when the back really feels good brief track sessions in the prepared '83 SC restores the smile on my face. Plying a little rather than not at all is the choice we have to make when age as in bad back catches us all. The price of having too much fun earlier. Mine is a result of competitive sports and subjecting my body to 6 plus g's for many years. Good luck in your search

sjfehr

You're not thinking far enough outside the box. Your one true solution is obvious: cybernetic spinal replacement! Play it right and you can probably even get your insurance to pay for it.

Have you looked into shock damping mounts for seats? When the DoD puts sensitive electronics into ships and vehicles, they don't usually directly harden the equipment, they put springs on the racks to absorb the most dangerous shocks. But what it's really doing is changing the resonant frequency of the equipment, dampening a high-amplitude high-frequency shock into lower frequencies that the equipment can withstand without breaking. I'm amazed Porsche (or the aftermarket) hasn't developed something specifically for this; I'd have to think it's a common issue, given how much of their demographic is retirees.

utkinpol

i would say - get a 997.2 gt3 rs car but with stock suspension, it uses soft springs so it is not so harsh as you would expect from a race car, to get stiff suspension you would need to replace shocks and springs. so stock 997.2 gt3 rs will be soft enough.

core deal is what you already know - you need to invest into a good seat, make a shell for your body in same way how it gets done for open wheel racers, that will make all the difference. obviously you need to use some base for that, and i cannot tell how wek it will work but i beleive it is possible to make a custom insert into any generic gt2 seats or gt3 seats. you want stock base or recaro made base seat that is mounted on spring suspended system so it would minimize vibrations. investigate it.
again, seat does not matter that much but a base does. deal is that all race seats get mounted usually directly on the floor to keep center of gravity as low as possible. while it is good it is not critical for you. my recaro sporster cs has spring suspended base and i like it but i do not think you can put a custom insert into recaro sporter, you probably need more race like seat like this
http://www.recaro-automotive.com/us/...sr-xl-spa.html
remove lower mounts and instead use sprung suspended base, strip stock insert and put in custom made foam insert made for your body. that should work.

i would keep separate cars for street and track, gt3 rs will be great on track. any other car like gts, c2s are better for street, gt2 depends - in stock form it is also will be not so optimal for track. if you see this car to live 80% on track and 20% street - get gt3 rs and do not look back, only downside will be low front splitter - for that you may want to order front axle lift system so it would help you to get over bumps and other street stuff. other than that stock gt3 rs will have all you need. gts or c2s will need a lot of mods to be fast on track.

gt2 is a different animal, there are several for sale now in $130k range on cars.com - it is a different kind of car but you really need to try such a car with turbo lag, big boost and very narrow active rpm range to see if you will like it, my gut guess is that you will like gt3 rs 3.8l NA motor much more than boosted gt2 motor with limited revs, those cars do not really need more power on track, all they need is grip.

rodsky

First of all welcome back. Now stay I would get PDK and either *** or Sport buckets. I'm no expert but am not sure a vert will make a difference for you. If you want to keep tracking, that may not be an optimal path. If not, its a great path. So maybe 991 may be better option than GT3 or 997 platform given its more GT nature in normal/normal mode.

Zeus993

That's a good question that I probably can't fully answer as I've not been a coupe for a couple of months now. I do notice that the passenger windows to creak a bit when the top is down and window up as there is nothing holding them in place on top. Typically with cabs you drive with the top down and the front windows and the wind deflector up. So initially I would have to say yes - there's more flex.

In regards to harshness I would say there is much less. I'm not tracking the cab (yet) but often run it in Sport Mode at higher speeds which is firm but not bone-jarring in any way. I also have the *** and find that for the first time in 5 years I do not get sore or tired on long drives. I sit fairly upright and they feel great. I had the standard comfort seats before and found that I'd get sore on longer drives and felt like I'd be rolling our of them on the twisties.

So for my lifestyle and and the kind of driving I do the cab with the AAS's is perfect. Maybe I'll long for something firmer but that's when the track toy as a second P-car will come into play.

Good luck on your hunt Gary. I believe there's a few more miles left in you yet!