EPA approves E15 fuel despite engine risk
#31
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wanna see how politics influences fuel content? Click on Oklahoma!
#32
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Corn used as feedstock for ethanol isn't food that's fit for humans. It's the cheapest starch on the planet. It would otherwise be used as animal feed, but nature didn't evolve cows and pigs to eat it either. If agricultural subsidies could promote the growing of fruits and veggies we'd all be better off. Could they grow wine grapes and olives in Iowa?
#33
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E15 or E85....just stay away from it if you have a high performance vehicle. I think the Farmers lobbyist have a lot to do with as well. There are a ton of these Coop Farmers that built Ethanol Plants all over the Midwest. Some have even gone Bankrupt. When gas prices are high the corn farmers make money on Ethanol.
#35
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Happy to help. I have a minor background in engineering and Im self taught with engine performance work. I have quite a bit of experience with turbocharging and alternative fuels have proven to be very useful in high horsepower applications.
I do agree with you on the politics in general. Our government gets a bit obtrusive in many ways, whether they try to be sneaky about it or downright obvious. Ethanol in gasoline is one thing I agree with, its progressive and good in almost every way. Switching to unleaded fuel may have seemed difficult at first but now its commonplace and we see its far better in every way.
One thing to consider is that if we switched to high content (50+%) ethanol content fuels, we could easily improve MPG and lower emissions. This means we could pass CAFE and EPA regulations while keeping hydraulic steering, brakes, etc... Personally, I dont care if we run our cars on bananas as long as it doesnt run the performance and fun.
One side thought: Ive driven the 991 and I think its a great car. Some complain about the electric steering (I do prefer hydraulic) but I found it to be better than the PDK transmission. The feel of the steering is still more involving and less dull than pushing a button or pulling a paddle to change gears. Im young, but I love the throw of a real shift lever and just cant get on board with a dual clutch trans. Its just too boring for me.
I do agree with you on the politics in general. Our government gets a bit obtrusive in many ways, whether they try to be sneaky about it or downright obvious. Ethanol in gasoline is one thing I agree with, its progressive and good in almost every way. Switching to unleaded fuel may have seemed difficult at first but now its commonplace and we see its far better in every way.
One thing to consider is that if we switched to high content (50+%) ethanol content fuels, we could easily improve MPG and lower emissions. This means we could pass CAFE and EPA regulations while keeping hydraulic steering, brakes, etc... Personally, I dont care if we run our cars on bananas as long as it doesnt run the performance and fun.
One side thought: Ive driven the 991 and I think its a great car. Some complain about the electric steering (I do prefer hydraulic) but I found it to be better than the PDK transmission. The feel of the steering is still more involving and less dull than pushing a button or pulling a paddle to change gears. Im young, but I love the throw of a real shift lever and just cant get on board with a dual clutch trans. Its just too boring for me.
Ethanol contains less energy than gasoline. Also, the ideal air/fuel ratio that works best when burning ethanol requires more fuel, the ratio being closer to 7:1 vs. 13:1.
So it takes more ethanol to make the same amount of power and more ethanol to supply the engine with the ideal air/fuel ratio. You can kiss better fuel consumption goodbye.
Oxygenated (MTBE at first but later ethanol) was introduced to help older cars with carburetors run cleaner by carrying in oxygen (in the form of MBTE or ethanol) so during combustion and after there would be more oxygen to effect cleaner combustion and cleaner exhaust.
With modern cars and precisely controlled fuel injection all ethanol does is increase the oxygen content of the exhaust gas which is detected by the O2 sensors which adds more fuel which hurts fuel consumption.
Of course all of this means more fuel is consumed that it would be otherwise, so more oil has to be produced, more oil has to shipped/piped/rail car'd, more oil has to be refined, and combined with ethanol which of course brings its own negatives to the picture, and this has to trucked to the gas stations.
Overall the (at least) several percentage points of poorer fuel economy over the millions of vehicles that have to run this ethanol blended gasoline adds insult to injury.
Sincerely,
Macster.
#36
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Upping the ethanol content of gasoline will not improve gas mileage. Just the opposite.
Ethanol contains less energy than gasoline. Also, the ideal air/fuel ratio that works best when burning ethanol requires more fuel, the ratio being closer to 7:1 vs. 13:1.
So it takes more ethanol to make the same amount of power and more ethanol to supply the engine with the ideal air/fuel ratio. You can kiss better fuel consumption goodbye.
Oxygenated (MTBE at first but later ethanol) was introduced to help older cars with carburetors run cleaner by carrying in oxygen (in the form of MBTE or ethanol) so during combustion and after there would be more oxygen to effect cleaner combustion and cleaner exhaust.
With modern cars and precisely controlled fuel injection all ethanol does is increase the oxygen content of the exhaust gas which is detected by the O2 sensors which adds more fuel which hurts fuel consumption.
Of course all of this means more fuel is consumed that it would be otherwise, so more oil has to be produced, more oil has to shipped/piped/rail car'd, more oil has to be refined, and combined with ethanol which of course brings its own negatives to the picture, and this has to trucked to the gas stations.
Overall the (at least) several percentage points of poorer fuel economy over the millions of vehicles that have to run this ethanol blended gasoline adds insult to injury.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Ethanol contains less energy than gasoline. Also, the ideal air/fuel ratio that works best when burning ethanol requires more fuel, the ratio being closer to 7:1 vs. 13:1.
So it takes more ethanol to make the same amount of power and more ethanol to supply the engine with the ideal air/fuel ratio. You can kiss better fuel consumption goodbye.
Oxygenated (MTBE at first but later ethanol) was introduced to help older cars with carburetors run cleaner by carrying in oxygen (in the form of MBTE or ethanol) so during combustion and after there would be more oxygen to effect cleaner combustion and cleaner exhaust.
With modern cars and precisely controlled fuel injection all ethanol does is increase the oxygen content of the exhaust gas which is detected by the O2 sensors which adds more fuel which hurts fuel consumption.
Of course all of this means more fuel is consumed that it would be otherwise, so more oil has to be produced, more oil has to shipped/piped/rail car'd, more oil has to be refined, and combined with ethanol which of course brings its own negatives to the picture, and this has to trucked to the gas stations.
Overall the (at least) several percentage points of poorer fuel economy over the millions of vehicles that have to run this ethanol blended gasoline adds insult to injury.
Sincerely,
Macster.
E85 has a stoichiometric ratio of approx 9.5:1, straight ethanol is 9:1. Vehicles designed to use ethanol based fuel will compensate for the change in fuel type, and not just dump fuel in an attempt to achieve a near stoich ratio.
#37
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Not only does it contain less energy than gasoline, it also takes more energy to produce. When looking at the eco impact of something like this the entire lifecycle is quantified. That means the energy to drill, transport, refine oil is all quantified. That also means the energy to create seed, plant, water, harvest, mash, and refine the corn alcohol is also quantified. Most impartial scientists agree that it requires about 1/3 more energy to get a gallon of corn alcohol than a gallon of gasoline. Citing the not exactly impartial NPR here but if you'd expect anyone to support corn fuel it'd be them.
http://www.npr.org/2010/12/21/132082...turn-the-favor
In addition I have a 2006 ducati with a mildly warped fuel tank because I can't get 100% gasoline in the 5 states I'm in on a weekly basis (NY, NJ, CT, RI, MA). Ducati is replacing fuel tanks under warranty but it's not really worth it to buy one just to watch it warp again. Stabil will not help with this as my friend went through the warranty tank and used stabil with no avail.
Scorpion T, I think everyone agrees that there is quite often room to improve the efficiency in almost any engine. However, when dealing with energy you can't pull energy from thin air. You'll never get more energy out of an engine using a gallon of E85 vs. a gallon of gasoline.
http://www.npr.org/2010/12/21/132082...turn-the-favor
In addition I have a 2006 ducati with a mildly warped fuel tank because I can't get 100% gasoline in the 5 states I'm in on a weekly basis (NY, NJ, CT, RI, MA). Ducati is replacing fuel tanks under warranty but it's not really worth it to buy one just to watch it warp again. Stabil will not help with this as my friend went through the warranty tank and used stabil with no avail.
Scorpion T, I think everyone agrees that there is quite often room to improve the efficiency in almost any engine. However, when dealing with energy you can't pull energy from thin air. You'll never get more energy out of an engine using a gallon of E85 vs. a gallon of gasoline.
#39
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Scorpion T, I think everyone agrees that there is quite often room to improve the efficiency in almost any engine. However, when dealing with energy you can't pull energy from thin air. You'll never get more energy out of an engine using a gallon of E85 vs. a gallon of gasoline.
One example I can use is a car of mine. On the stock turbo I had a tuner advance timing and lean out the AFR, all while monitoring the EGTs, knock sensors, coolant temps, etc... Zero counts of knock, coolant and EGTs were within safe operating levels. I was able to make more power than stock and average MPG was almost identical to stock. I may not have extracted more thermal energy from thin air, but the motor performed much better with E85 than with gasoline.
Ive know several other Supra owners who run E85 and make 1000+whp. Using the same turbo and running 93 octane they would be limited to ~600whp. Gasoline has an advantage in thermal energy, but it will never be able to make the power the E85 cars can.
Ethanol fuel will not magically increase horsepower and MPG, the engine must be specifically build and tuned to achieve the best performance.
#40
Drifting
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So does that just require a reprogramming of the ECU for our 911's? or do we have to gut with a different engine? Maybe it's just the turbo plus associated ECU mod.
#41
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Right, you can tune most any engine to make it more effecient (and most modern engines were tuned for gasoline, not E85) but when comparing the best tuned gas vehicles of today vs the best tuned e85 vehicles of today you will always get more MPG from the vehicle running on gasoline (the car with 1 gallon of gas had more energy to work with in the first place).
http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/...ison-test.html
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story....lAlt&story=e85
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...view/index.htm
If you want to talk about someone getting maximum horsepower with use of fuel be damned (for a drag car for example) than you may be able to get to a higher horsepower with E85. But this is something different than efficiency.
http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/...ison-test.html
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story....lAlt&story=e85
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...view/index.htm
If you want to talk about someone getting maximum horsepower with use of fuel be damned (for a drag car for example) than you may be able to get to a higher horsepower with E85. But this is something different than efficiency.
#42
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ADM Yep....you're right about that. Big difference in small business capitalism and vulture capitalism isn't there.
A buddy of mine owns half the town I live in and made all of his money buying $200 mil in bad mortgages and foreclosing on homeowners. I don't have the stomach for it but I guess someone has to do it. Vulture Capitalism.
A buddy of mine owns half the town I live in and made all of his money buying $200 mil in bad mortgages and foreclosing on homeowners. I don't have the stomach for it but I guess someone has to do it. Vulture Capitalism.
Not the farmers. More likely ADM Corp
#43
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You're right...I'd rather give my money to the farmers and than the people that hate us. I think the concern amongst folks in the Midwest is that these Ethanol Plants may extract too much water from the aquifer but you're right...water is here to day and we can never get rid of it unless we take it into outer space.
It will be interesting to see how thing progress.
It will be interesting to see how thing progress.
We have several local hydroelectric power plants in the area, and the rest of the power comes from nuclear plants. We have no coal or natural gas fired plants in the area, and definitely none providing power for the two corn ethanol plants near here. In most areas this is not the case, so its a bit of an exception to the rule.
Ethanol does use quite a bit of water during the mashing stage, but its one of the most plentiful (and renewable) resources on the planet. During the fermentation stage we get back carbon dioxide, which can be broken down into carbon (many uses) and oxygen (did I mention I know how to make beer and liquor?).
Yes, we subsidize ethanol production, but isnt that a better option than sending it to oil producers outside of the US? Lots of technology has been funded by government spending, and ethanol shouldnt be that big of an issue.
Switchgrass is far better than corn, you are correct, but lobbyists wont be against growing switchgrass. Many farmers have stake in the ethanol producing cooperatives, and thats just one more reason for them to make the transition to switchgrass.
Ethanol does have a lower energy rating than gasoline, but there are ways to compensate. Compression ratio is going to be the first way. Increasing the compression ratio and pairing it with forced induction (preferably turbocharging) will increase efficiency considerably.
Yes, with ethanol being hygroscopic it does love to ruin wreak havoc on certain parts not designed to be compatible, but as time progresses we wont have to worry about that. Besides, its not the now we are planning for, its the future. Think about the industrial age. If we still used the same methods and chose not to improve anything, can you imagine what the world would be like? But, people got smart and started to think about how they were destroying the environment and they made changes to better the future, and thats the purpose of change.
Ethanol does use quite a bit of water during the mashing stage, but its one of the most plentiful (and renewable) resources on the planet. During the fermentation stage we get back carbon dioxide, which can be broken down into carbon (many uses) and oxygen (did I mention I know how to make beer and liquor?).
Yes, we subsidize ethanol production, but isnt that a better option than sending it to oil producers outside of the US? Lots of technology has been funded by government spending, and ethanol shouldnt be that big of an issue.
Switchgrass is far better than corn, you are correct, but lobbyists wont be against growing switchgrass. Many farmers have stake in the ethanol producing cooperatives, and thats just one more reason for them to make the transition to switchgrass.
Ethanol does have a lower energy rating than gasoline, but there are ways to compensate. Compression ratio is going to be the first way. Increasing the compression ratio and pairing it with forced induction (preferably turbocharging) will increase efficiency considerably.
Yes, with ethanol being hygroscopic it does love to ruin wreak havoc on certain parts not designed to be compatible, but as time progresses we wont have to worry about that. Besides, its not the now we are planning for, its the future. Think about the industrial age. If we still used the same methods and chose not to improve anything, can you imagine what the world would be like? But, people got smart and started to think about how they were destroying the environment and they made changes to better the future, and thats the purpose of change.
#44
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Right, you can tune most any engine to make it more effecient (and most modern engines were tuned for gasoline, not E85) but when comparing the best tuned gas vehicles of today vs the best tuned e85 vehicles of today you will always get more MPG from the vehicle running on gasoline (the car with 1 gallon of gas had more energy to work with in the first place).
http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/...ison-test.html
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story....lAlt&story=e85
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...view/index.htm
If you want to talk about someone getting maximum horsepower with use of fuel be damned (for a drag car for example) than you may be able to get to a higher horsepower with E85. But this is something different than efficiency.
http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/...ison-test.html
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story....lAlt&story=e85
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...view/index.htm
If you want to talk about someone getting maximum horsepower with use of fuel be damned (for a drag car for example) than you may be able to get to a higher horsepower with E85. But this is something different than efficiency.
As I mentioned before, to get the most from E85 the compression and timing would need to be changed significantly, and doing so would mean standard gasoline could not be used. Flex-fuel vehicles need lower compression to accommodate for both fuel types.
Here is one example to understand it better. Say two people want to buy dumbbells for their home gym, one is a body builder and the other is not. The body builder is clearly able to handle heavy weights, so he could get them if he wanted. The second person has an average strength level, so he needs an average weight set. If they buy an average set of weights both people will be able to get a workout, but the body builder will only get a mild workout. If he wants to get only the heaviest weights he can find his workout will be great, but the smaller person wont be able to use them at all. For both to use the weights, the body builder makes a compromise and is able to get a workout, but nowhere near the best possible.
If you want to get much better efficiency from ethanol you must to build the motor specifically for it. If you want to run gasoline as well (because E85 isnt always available) you need to build for both, which compromises the performance while running ethanol, but you are still able to use both fuels. In the case of running E85 and gasoline, you cant have your cake and eat it too.
You're right...I'd rather give my money to the farmers and than the people that hate us. I think the concern amongst folks in the Midwest is that these Ethanol Plants may extract too much water from the aquifer but you're right...water is here to day and we can never get rid of it unless we take it into outer space.
It will be interesting to see how thing progress.
It will be interesting to see how thing progress.