gla

I don't want to start a "what's the best" thread, but I do have a question on what motor oils are approved and why. I have had two water cooled 911's, a 99 C2 and I currently have a 07S coupe. I have used Redline 5-40 in both cars and have never had a mechanical issue. Neither vehicle ever used more than about a half quart between 5000 mile changes. I do all of my own services and am pretty careful in all the maintenance. I use the LN engineering spin on filter adapter with their magnetic drain plug. OK...here is my question. I don't see Redline oil on Porsche's approved oil list. Is the reason because of some additive that they think screws something up, or is it just because Redline is a small boutique oil and not woth their time to mention?

No HTwo O

I used Redline 5W40 very successfully in my Boxster for +3 years. I just recently switched to Mobil 5W50. UOA's continue to be excellent.

There are hundreds of oils on Porsche's approved list. Like you said, Redline is NOT one of them. Reasons? No clue. Marketing? Probably.

Macster

No one knows outside of Porsche.

It may be as some believe that oils that are not approved belong to those companies that refused to pay money to Porsche to be included on the approved list.

Or it may be that as some believe that Porsche simply chooses to approve the worst of the oils for its cars.

My belief is of course quite different.

Porsche I believe has a pretty good idea of what its engines require from an oil and having access to the nitty-gritty ingredients (some oil makers list up to 8 ingredients as 'trade secret' which may be ok for the general market bit doesn't cut it when seeking approval from Porsche...) can clearly reject those oils that do not meet Porsche's requirements.

Or the other possibility is that oils that are not approved are oils that the oil maker simply knows does not meet the Porsche oil requirements.

Of course, it could also be that some oils that are otherwise perfectly suited to the Porsche engines are not approved simply because the oil maker didn't want to make the effort to have its oil approved.

Porsche represents a pretty small car population so it is not like an oil maker is foregoing a large market for its oil.

And there are plenty of oils approved on the list and one more oil would just lost in the listing of the oils already there.

Sincerely,

Macster.

Lubrecon

No car company can evaluate every oil from every manufacturer for every engine application. In most cases, the car manufacturer will designate an API S or ILSAC GF service classification and then an SAE viscosity designation. Then the customer can make his own selection with respect to availability, price, and operational conditions the car(engine) will see. However, car manufacturers are moving to having their own proprietary brand of oil, i.e. GM with their Dexos oils, and others are following, but still endorse an ILSAC or API category or spec.

The oils qualified under the service classifications have to meet certain sequence tests as conducted by approved labs. Some oils meet, and some oils exceed the service classification requirements. As a base stock, Porsche wants only hydrocracked(Group III) or synthetic(PAO(Group IV) in most cases) base stocks. Synthetic is a very nebulous term used by many, but in the purest sense, neither Group III or PAO's are synthetic, since they both come from a hydrocarbon, but who cares about technical accuracy??

There are really no trade secrets in the oil formulation business. All of the additives are essentially the same, just used in different combinations and amounts to achieve what the oil company is trying to accomplish and achieve in the qualification procedures or sequence tests, i.e. viscosity retention, cleanliness, wear, corrosion, etc. I have never heard of "ingredients" that would be considered a "trade secret" as Mcaster alludes to. And if a company said they have some, then run away as fast as possible from that company's oil!!

In short, I have no idea how you get on Porsche's approved oil list, but suffice it to say, if they initial fill with Mobil 1(whatever viscosity), why would you want to seek out other oils for your engine??

USMC_DS1

I used Redline for my old m3 with great result for years. For my '08 C2S, however, I use MB1 since it's recommended by Porsche and especially while it's still under warranty. No debate re oil if anything goes wrong while the car is still under CPO.

Lubrecon

If you are interested in what engine oils not to buy and detailed info on many engine oils in general, look here...http://www.pqiamerica.com/....it has a wealth of information.

Macster

I have found several Material Safety Data Sheets for oils that are not approved but still touted by some as being superior oils. (I have found some of these sheets for approved oils too. More and more these sheets are hard to come by.

Under Section 3 (composition/information on ingredients) Decene, tetramer and trimer hydrogenated (CAS # 68649-12-7); concentration: 20 to 30% (by weight) is listed along with Zinc Dithiophosphate (CAS # 686-42-3); concentration: < 2.5%) is listed.

Under other substances I find Trade Secret 01 through Trade Secret 07 (no CAS # provided any of these other substances) with Trade Secret 01 having a concentration of 40 to 50% with the rest having less down to 07 having 0.1 to 1% concentration.

I'm sure any oil chemical engineer could probably taste a drop and tell what the 'secret ingredients' are. But for us mortals...

Anyhow, I don't care. That it is not approved is good enough for me. That the majority of the ingredients of this oil and others like it are trade secret just confirms my belief the oil while it may be suitable for its intended vehicle class it is not suitable for use in my Porsches.

Sincerely,

Macster.

Lubrecon

MSDS were never intended to reflect any approvals and tell you really nothing about formulations. What oils did you find where the MSDS shows trade secrets and the concentrations? I would like to look at those. I can assure you that any oil on Porsche's approved list will not have any trade secrets.

MagnusB

Macster

My WAG is that Porsche does not use or rely much on published info regarding its approved oils determination. I based this on the fact that not all 5-40 synthetic oils are approved and not all oils that conform to the various oil standards.

I do not have access to what I suspect are the nitty gritty details of what are in oils, approved or otherwise.

What I have is found some MSDS for oils, some approved and some not approved.

Furthermore, I never claimed oils on Porsche's approved oils list had any trade secret ingredients.

The MSDS I found that listed trade secret ingredients were for oils that were not on the approved list yet recommended by some as being suitable for use in modern Porsche engines.

One such oil is Mobil 5w-40 Turbo Diesel and Truck oil.

Just for my curiosity, I searched for (or requested) a few MSDS's for approved oils.

For the few MSDS's I have the general formulation is a synthetic base stock (group 4 or group 5) of around 90 to 95 percent (by weight) and the rest of the oil is consists of one to several additives.

For most MSDSs I used online searches and following the various search hits.

In somes cases the lists are no longer available but can be requested by mail.

In one or two cases I have asked for and received from my local oil distributor MSDS for these oils.

For other MSDS's I visted the oil maker's web site and followed the link to a MSDS on line in PDF format. Many oil makers no longer post these.

For some MSDS's I did find, or received from the oil distributor, the MSDS just says, in so many words, nothing really harmful in this oil just do not drink it or put on it your cornflakes.

The ingredients are no longer explicitly listed.

If you want send me a PM and an email address and I'll forward to you the MSDS PDF's I have collected.

I have roughly 6 or so.

Sincerely,

Macster.

Lubrecon

No, that's ok, I just didn't want anyone to think that the MSDS's really told you anything about the oil or it's capabilities. Look at the site I put up a few posts back and see what is really in some of the oils, it is very detailed and interesting.