swajames

Two of CR's three highest rated cars, based on their road tests, are the BMW 135i 6MT and the Carrera S 6MT... I think CR gets exactly what we get about the 911.

As for these results, it's perhaps something of a statistical quirk given that there was data for only two models and one was a bit of a dud. That said, the results are what they are and the Cayenne clearly had enough reported issues to undo the strong performance of the 911.

swajames

You're confusing the JD Power Initial Quality Survey with this one. The IQS is a snapshot of the first 90 days of ownership. The CR report is based on user reports over the model year.

simsgw

Has anyone around here ever cared where Consumer Reports ranks anything but toasters?

Gary

simsgw

I believe that is Tony's point. I honestly don't give a damn what readers of Consumers Report automobile articles think about Porsches, not even the Cayenne. I don't even pay attention to J.D. Powers "Initial Quality Survey" the last ten or fifteen years. They began including as problems, not just failures, but "I don't understand how it works" or "I had to try three times to set the A/C temp for my wife's side of the car" and even "It's doing something, but I don't understand !

Clearly, such information is useful to some people, and it may help people who already feel a generalized sense of confusion and malaise when confronting a European car and don't care to spend $100,000 increasing those feelings. Clearly, it is worth collecting and worth publishing in some context, but as part of a 'quality' survey it is irrelevant. Is a circular slide rule broken in some sense because anyone born since Kennedy's tenure can't use it? Is a manual transmission 'broken' because you don't know how to use a clutch? (Well, maybe it will be shortly, but I mean initially, it's 'initial' quality.)

I mention all that because it sounds like Consumer Reports takes a similar attitude. Not "how many repairs were required?" but more along the lines of "how many controls did the dealer have to explain to you, twit?" Or even "how many controls did you fail to understand and not even bother to ask the dealer about?" [Not that I mean they phrase the questions that way, even without my sarcasm. I mean they permit such answers. They do not contrive to exclude them from the results.]

I'm biased though, being a design engineer. I'm of the school that wants to see the broken part you removed if you say you had a maintenance problem. I don't even care how many times the dealer nodded politely and kept the car for an hour "to fix it." I don't even care if he removed and replaced a 'failing' part unless I can see the part, test it, and agree. The dealer's business is keeping customers happy, not designing cars. So engineers in consumer products have pretty much the same attitude as I do: show me the 'broken' part and let somebody who knows the design decide it failed. Otherwise, you're complaining of an issue in a category I would locate somewhere vaguely between marketing and the tech writers who produce the owners manual. If you like, think of J.D.Powers (and I suspect Consumer Reports in car articles) as reporting on a blend of

1. the pre-existing product knowledge of their respondents
2. the readability of the owners manual, and
3. the literacy of the respondents to their survey.

As a consumer, I don't often buy something about which I have low expertise. When I was a squeaker, yes, but not at my age. When I do, I know how to read an owner's manual, although engineers are often accused of refusing that demeaning act. And finally, I'm pretty literate. Yet the J.D.Powers Initial Quality Survey and (in my past experience) Consumer Reports contaminate their reports with answers from people foreign to my own situation.

So in my world, Consumer Reports is pretty much useless unless I'm advising my great Aunt Dorothy which toaster to buy for her half-senile cousin.

Gary

boolala

Based upon the frequency with which they are quoted on RL (both good and bad) I would say that the answer to that question is yes:

https://rennlist.com/forums/8773344-post2.html

https://rennlist.com/forums/8641948-post24.html

https://rennlist.com/forums/8426553-post19.html

https://rennlist.com/forums/3954274-post1.html

https://rennlist.com/forums/3936080-post38.html

alexb76

@Gary, regardless of your long reasoning, a sample size of 1.3million is a very substantial sample size to conclude fairly accurate average reliability index per brand. Also note models within each brand are significantly different and the main reason for poor Porsche showing is Primarily due to issues with new Cayenne (being first year model).

How else would you call something reliable? Wife tales on Rennlist with a hundred user sample size? Come on! With all due respect and while appreciating most of your previous posts, this seriously was a weak argument!

vexed

I am a long time CR subscriber and get the auto survey and other surveys every year. I don't always complete them but they are for actual repairs not did the dealer tell you how to do xyz. I do consider their information useful and often relevant, their review of the 997.1 was not much of a factor in my purchase decision but if they had noted some glaring issue I would have tried to validate or eliminate their concern.

The most recent data as noted in many posts above is due to some teething problems with the new Cayenne. Not the 997. And I have read more than one post here to the effect that someone is not going to buy a new 991 to avoid any new model issues.

CamsPorsche

The U.S. must be different because I was in at the Porsche dealer here in Dubai and they were gobsmacked by how many pre-orders they have received. Most notably the buyers are keen on the larger panamera like interior and the salesman was saying he's seeing lots of people wishing to offload their 997's to do so.

I'm hoping what he said was somewhat factual (known him for a while) and he had no real reason to embelish what he was saying as I am looking for another 997 the 991 is out of my price range.

I feel purists wait for one or two years after the new model but the vast majority of those outside forums, clubs, etc. want the new model regardless of first or second year.

TommyV44

I agree 200% with that!

lopro

another point is when something's wrong I am compelled to bitch or report (I get frustrated and go out of my way to make it known that I just bought something and its broken already)



when things are going right I don't have time to report or review because I am out enjoying what I just bought. Im happy because it's working.



i'm not sure if this really fits in this but it's something to think about

boolala

I'll answer that one for you: since it's a relative scale this would apply to all vehicle makes as well. The discontents across all brands should even this out and not effect the relative rankings.

For those who would claim that luxury car owners would tend to be more demanding because they spend more money I would counter that, as a percentage of yearly income, the "lower tier" consumer is likely more affected by a bad purchace decision that the upper income group.

Minok

I'd counter that a lower end consumer, especially one used to more 2nd and 3rd hand cars, would expect problems and issues as being 'normal' and likely. Where as folks buying new cars and having personal stake in the cars beyond just 'a transportation tool', would be more sensitive to even cosmetic or build material issues that other owners would likely not even notice.

That said, I got my JD Power survey with a whole dollar in the mail... I guess I'll fill it out. Though I don't think I can do so in the 1 minute they've paid me to do it.

Things that affected the new car quality:
1) Roof seal issues
2) Grinding noise from front end that cannot be diagnosed
3) Lack of software support for the trip log option on modern computers
4) Lack of PCM software support to address functional issues with purchased options & hardware fixes to known issues: ie iPod discharges.
5) Sub-standard install of door sill plates when new

boolala

^^^^Baloney argument.

When people purchase a new car they do not expect the same unreliability they have experienced in the past with used cars.

Try a more plausible excuse next time.

96redLT4

I am fascinated too by this-much more exciting than anything in CR.
J

kosmo

lest not forget washers/dryers and dishwashers!