997: the last of a true manual tranny?
09-16-2011, 11:50 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Alex what are you smoking? You are beating your head against history. The Tiptronic has been around a 10% decrease in price compared to a manual. NOW the PDK is FASTER than a manual. For WHAT reason would the manual be worth more than the PDK? Its SLOWER, its not where the industry is going and the PDK is a HOOT to drive. I have had THREE Manual of the best 911s EVER. 993 TT, 996 GT3 997.1 GT3 and I prefer the 2009 C2S PDK!!! And SO do ALOT of other aggressive 911 guys. As soon as the PDK came out and people found out how FAST they are, they went to the dealer and bought them and outfitted them for the track.
NOW we get guys on the GT3 forum COMPLAINING that they cant catch the 997.2 Regular Carrera S PDK on the track! They are going to join them instead of trying to beat them.
WHY oh WHY would a SLOWER 911 be worth MORE than the manual?
Look at it this way. You can drive the Carrera S PDK MANUALLY or AUTO or BOTH. Its almost THREE different cars with the PDK and the Chrono S
1. Normal automatic mode- city driving much like a Mercedes
2. Sport mode-VERY GT3 like quick for the street and very fast on long straights
3. SPort Plus is almost like a STRAIGHT TRACK car, its SO fast I just absolutely destroyed a new Vette the other day going UP a mountain.
AND YOU SHOULDNT INVEST MONEY IN A CAR, IF SO you are BETTING ON A LOSING PROPOSITION!!!! Unless its a historic Ferrari. But at these production values its not going to make a HOOT of a difference. INdeed I think the new Manual is going to be like the OLD TIPTRONIC, worth less
by a little bit. But at these production numbers it aint going to matter.
NOW we get guys on the GT3 forum COMPLAINING that they cant catch the 997.2 Regular Carrera S PDK on the track! They are going to join them instead of trying to beat them.
WHY oh WHY would a SLOWER 911 be worth MORE than the manual?
Look at it this way. You can drive the Carrera S PDK MANUALLY or AUTO or BOTH. Its almost THREE different cars with the PDK and the Chrono S
1. Normal automatic mode- city driving much like a Mercedes
2. Sport mode-VERY GT3 like quick for the street and very fast on long straights
3. SPort Plus is almost like a STRAIGHT TRACK car, its SO fast I just absolutely destroyed a new Vette the other day going UP a mountain.
AND YOU SHOULDNT INVEST MONEY IN A CAR, IF SO you are BETTING ON A LOSING PROPOSITION!!!! Unless its a historic Ferrari. But at these production values its not going to make a HOOT of a difference. INdeed I think the new Manual is going to be like the OLD TIPTRONIC, worth less
by a little bit. But at these production numbers it aint going to matter.
You are completely missing the reason WHY some cars are more expensive than others and WHY some 993s are valued A LOT MORE than your FASTER 997 C2S PDK! It is ALL ABOUT HOW THEY FEEL, and HOW RARE they are!
In 2030 (response to main question - worth in 20 years), NO ONE CARES how fast a 2009 GTS is, as there WILL BE gas/electric cars with advanced batteries or fuel cell that'd be much faster, with MUCH MUCH better auto-transmission than your beloved PDK, and a 20 year old PDK is absolutely NOT a value add! However, a manual transmission with the way it engages the driver, and the totally different feel will be a MUCH RARER car to own, and for someone who's interested in a 20yr old car it is HUGELY valueable.
In 20 years, manual will be WORTH A LOT MORE than PDK, I can bet on that... Absolute non-sense response with fan-boy behavior... NO ONE CLAIMED PDK is slow, or PDK is worse than manual... but it is definitely not as fun and more of a historic mechanical technology that will be sought after when electronic take over life!
I am done... it's such an obvious thing, not even worth discussing.
PS. I agree on one point, investment in cars is NOT wise in general.
Last edited by alexb76; 09-17-2011 at 03:53 AM.
09-16-2011, 11:56 PM
#17
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Alex what are you smokin? You are beating your head against history. The Tiptronic has been around a 10% decrease in price compared to a manual. NOW the PDK is FASTER than a manual. For WHAT reason would the manual be worth more than the PDK? Its SLOWER, its not where the industry is going and the PDK is a HOOT to drive. I have had THREE Manual of the best 911s EVER. 993 TT, 996 GT3 997.1 GT3 and I prefer the 2009 C2S PDK!!! And SO do ALOT of other aggressive 911 guys. As soon as the PDK came out and people found out how FAST they are, they went to the dealer and bought them and outfitted them for the track.
NOW we get guys on the GT3 forum COMPLAINING that they cant catch the 997.2 Regular Carrera S PDK on the track! They are going to join them instead of trying to beat them.
WHY oh WHY would a SLOWER 911 be worth MORE than the manual?
Look at it this way. You can drive the Carrera S PDK MANUALLY or AUTO or BOTH. Its almost THREE different cars with the PDK and the Chrono S
1. Normal automatic mode- city driving much like a Mercedes
2. Sport mode-VERY GT3 like quick for the street and very fast on long straights
3. SPort Plus is almost like a STRAIGHT TRACK car, its SO fast I just absolutely destroyed a new Vette the other day going UP a mountain.
AND YOU SHOULDNT INVEST MONEY IN A CAR, IF SO you are BETTING ON A LOSING PROPOSITION!!!! Unless its a historic Ferrari. But at these production values its not going to make a HOOT of a difference. INdeed I think the new Manual is going to be like the OLD TIPTRONIC, worth less
by a little bit. But at these production numbers it aint going to matter.
NOW we get guys on the GT3 forum COMPLAINING that they cant catch the 997.2 Regular Carrera S PDK on the track! They are going to join them instead of trying to beat them.
WHY oh WHY would a SLOWER 911 be worth MORE than the manual?
Look at it this way. You can drive the Carrera S PDK MANUALLY or AUTO or BOTH. Its almost THREE different cars with the PDK and the Chrono S
1. Normal automatic mode- city driving much like a Mercedes
2. Sport mode-VERY GT3 like quick for the street and very fast on long straights
3. SPort Plus is almost like a STRAIGHT TRACK car, its SO fast I just absolutely destroyed a new Vette the other day going UP a mountain.
AND YOU SHOULDNT INVEST MONEY IN A CAR, IF SO you are BETTING ON A LOSING PROPOSITION!!!! Unless its a historic Ferrari. But at these production values its not going to make a HOOT of a difference. INdeed I think the new Manual is going to be like the OLD TIPTRONIC, worth less
by a little bit. But at these production numbers it aint going to matter.
I don't think anyone could dispute that the PDK-equipped car is faster.
The other side of the coin, however, is it's not just about speed... It's indisputable that the PDK-equipped car does much more for you. It's an automatic, albeit a top-drawer example, and a shift initiated by the push of a button, the flick of a paddle or the whim of the software engineers when you've placed the car in "D" is inevitably a far less analog experience than it is with the manual transmission. That's not a criticism, it's simply a reflection of the steps required to initiate the complete the shift and the greater impact of the nut behind the wheel. For those that want things to happen as quickly as possible or for those that want to drive the car in automatic, there's only one logical choice. But for those that prioritize the old school experience (and its corresponding engagement and susceptibility to human fallibility) there's also only one logical choice.
So, you pays your money and you takes your choice, but the simple fact that PDK-equipped cars are selling in greater numbers today than the old-school manual speaks to a future rarity that in some shape or form is going to factor into the future market value. I agree with Alex that the likelihood is that the relative rarity of the manual in years to come is more likely to have a positive and not a negative influence on the numbers.
Still, we're really debating analog vs digital and blondes vs brunettes... If you want the 911 experience and you want old-school involvement the manual is the only way to go. If you want to be fastest round a track, it's got to be the PDK. But an argument for PDK based solely on speed is no more valid than an argument for manual based on engagement.
I'd also counter that if it were just about speed, all of us could have saved some money and turned things up to 11 with a GT-R
09-17-2011, 12:06 AM
#19
Rennlist Member
09-17-2011, 12:12 AM
#20
Nordschleife Master
so;
1) I don't agree with you. In fact, I doubt there will be many who can drive a true manual in 20 yrs
2) your wager is ridiculous unless you actually have a Million in cash you're willing to escrow. Childish in fact, even if you're rich
3) buy what you want in 20 yrs... I like both
09-17-2011, 02:36 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
Yogi is credited as saying, "... predictions are very difficult to make, especially when they are about the future..."
so;
1) I don't agree with you. In fact, I doubt there will be many who can drive a true manual in 20 yrs
2) your wager is ridiculous unless you actually have a Million in cash you're willing to escrow. Childish in fact, even if you're rich
3) buy what you want in 20 yrs... I like both
so;
1) I don't agree with you. In fact, I doubt there will be many who can drive a true manual in 20 yrs
2) your wager is ridiculous unless you actually have a Million in cash you're willing to escrow. Childish in fact, even if you're rich
3) buy what you want in 20 yrs... I like both
09-17-2011, 02:42 AM
#23
GT3 player par excellence
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money no object. if i were racing, i want pdk or sequential box. if i am cruising for fun i like stick. each to his own. but brunette and blonde? who are you kidding. brunette every time, 2x on sundays.
09-17-2011, 12:49 PM
#26
Race Director
the 991 is 177.8 inches long, 71.2 inches wide, and 50.8 inches high.
the 997 is 175.6 inches long, 71.2 inches high, and 51.2 inches high
So you're saying the 997 has sedan proportions too, right? Because a 2.2" inch difference is hardly worth noting.
the 997 is 175.6 inches long, 71.2 inches high, and 51.2 inches high
So you're saying the 997 has sedan proportions too, right? Because a 2.2" inch difference is hardly worth noting.
09-17-2011, 01:04 PM
#27
09-17-2011, 02:51 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Exactly right!
Just had the GT3 on the track yesterday and had (as you'd expect) an absolute blast. Love rowing the gears.
Also DD a C2S cab with PDK. Absolutely love how it shifts. Rarely just put it in D, I use the stick most often.
09-17-2011, 03:01 PM
#30
Nordschleife Master
I do find it amazing that Ferrari no longer makes a manual transmission. I also understand the PDK is revolutionary ... I just have ZERO interest in owning an automatic sports car ... yes. yes, I know, it has paddles ..... but for me, shifting with paddles creates the same sensation as striking out the pitcher ... none
