simsgw

Hmmm. It would not have occurred to me to put those three tires in the same class with Michelin PS2, so certainly not the PSS either. Maybe the Bridgestones, but even that's a stretch. I replaced ours with Michelins are soon as practical. These days I think of tires for performance road use and occasional track excursions at high speeds. Do you find those to be good performers in autocross? Or is it some other reason makes you wish they'd been considered in that comparison?

Gary

E55AMG

why would you think it a stretch to put the RE-11 in the same class as the PS2/PSS?

Don't have any experience with the other two but i've had PS2, RE050's and RE-11's on my turbo. The RE'11's are better in every way.

simsgw

Because in my own experience they were nor as good in the wet by a big margin and they wore much faster. Dry performance was roughly comparable to PS2 but anybody can use a soft compound and get dry performance for a short while. I need a great road tire with track performance as well, and road performance absolutely must have good wet control in my view.

G

bensf

I won't speculate on how well it would have done against those tires but like you I would have liked to have seen them tested against them. It would make it easier to choose the best street tires for track use. Maybe that should be new category for Tire Rack.

Aerokitted

The PSSs are THE tire to have today. They're the stickier, stronger, faster, and longer lasting PS2s at a discount no less! They do not compare to the MPSCs as they're softer, but the MPSCs are not great street tires especially for anything in the wet.

They are the beefiest tires I've run so for those of you running aggressive aftermarket widths/offsets, be forewarned. The sidewall is noticeably "thicker" than the PS2s.

Scott997

Cannot compare the MPSS to the rest but it is a better tire then the ps2, especially on the track.

simsgw

I want to apologize and correct that. Memory tickled me all evening until I finally checked. The tires we had were not elevens, they were tens, the Bridgestone RE010 that is, so our experience is not relevant at all. From a quick check, your opinion of the eleven is matched by their reputation in general, E55.

Definitely my mistake. So going back to your original question, I gather that Tire Rack do not consider them in the same category either. That's why they weren't in the same test. They've created the "extreme summer" category for tires that excel on dry roads and in track use, approaching the level of dedicated track tires, but possibly at the sacrifice of ride comfort or wet weather performance.

Knowing that, I agree with your original comment that it would be interesting to see these driven back-to-back with the Michelin PSS to have some idea how much track performance the PSS gives up for its superior wet weather handling and conversely with the RE-11.

Gary

E55AMG

No worries Gary Even if you were talking about the RE-11 that was your opinion. That's what makes this so interesting - The same tire can yield very different feelings between people.

"in my experience" (LOL) I've found the RE-11 to be just as good in the wet as the PS2 and superior in the dry. I've also found them to be quieter and a better ride.

The one big surprise I've had with them is how well they performed in the cold this past winter. Of course, i'm not going to drive the same way in the extreme cold as I would in the summer but they behaved very well.

Anyway, just one man's opinion and someone could have the exact opposite feelings.

alexb76

I would NOT put them in the same class either. Tirerack knows a thing or two...

The Max Performance tires are a great overall performance tire, that would do well in wet, dry, track, and for regular street driving with acceptable wear. Extreme performance tires tip the scale towards dry track conditions, and compromise on everything else... so more like a one-dimensional tire.

Most probably the Extreme Performance tires would do better on dry track conditions but worse in every other category (including wet).

E55AMG

not been my experience with the RE-11 compared to PS2 and RE050A's. But, that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

brad@tirerack.com

We only test four at a time because:

We have four test cars and several dozen people here involved in the process. Getting everyone their turn takes quite a bit of time. We test about 35 different tires a summer, we just can't do it all at the same time.

Max performance tires do not behave like extreme performance summer tires, especially when pushed. RE-11, Z1 Star Spec, AD08...all exhibit performance characteristics that set them aside in conditions that would sideline other tires. When you get a tire 175+ degrees the performance difference is quite noticeable. When we turn the sprinklers on and push them things change quite a bit. There are definitely some tires that are much better dry than wet. While we don't have the land for a sprawling roadrace track (sorry Utkinpol) to get tire to "track temperature", try lining 35 people back to back and having them try to tear the tires off the cars and see how hot they get. The reason we still take survey responses is because we want your input, too. Getting feedback from the weekend warriors like you guys helps us out a lot, too. All of it combined is what works best to keep customers as informed as they can be. Keep the feedback coming!

zoomzoommo

"Max performance tires do not behave like extreme performance summer tires, especially when pushed. RE-11, Z1 Star Spec, AD08...all exhibit performance characteristics that set them aside in conditions that would sideline other tires. "

So the category assignments by Tire Rack DO have significant implications relative to performance.

The BIG question is how does Tire Rack assign a tire to a specific category prior to testing? Are manufacturers providing baseline data? Do they request assignment to a specific category? Does Tire Rack perform unpublished baseline tests?

Alan C.

I just got back from Watkins Glen with NNJR. I put a new set of Michelin PSS's on prior to the event. I drove from Cincinnati to the Glen and the tires performed well on the highway. I think they were as quiet as the the PS2's which they replaced.

The first day on the track it was dry and warm. After a couple of sessions to reacquaint myself with the track in the Red Group I started to push the car. The grip was very good in my opinion. Turning into turn 1 at about mid corner it felt like the car wanted to push but adding a little more input to the steering wheel made the car get back on line. By the third session I was able to flat foot it from T1 exit to the chicane. Under hard braking the tires never exhibited excessive squirm.

The second day it rained so I had a chance to see how they worked in the rain. Again I was impressed with the tire. They had more grip than I had skill in a few locations. They were very stable and predictive in the wet. It was fairly easy to dial in increasing throttle from T2 all the way through the esses (not flat out but still got the car into 5th). They gripped well on the concrete and the asphalt.

The third day was dry up to the time I left which was after the second run. The first run had a few leftover damp spots but not too bad. The last run before noon I go to play with a couple of cars which were about the same speed as my 997.2S. Pushing hard the tires never left me nervous and they communicated fairly well approaching the edge. I did get into T1 a bit too fast and the back end started to step out but it was easy to control. The noise from the tires let me know that I had exceeded the limit.

The settings I used are as follows:

Cold pressure front/rear = 32/38, Hot 38/48 (Hot seemed high but it worked for me)
Camber front left -2.7, right -2.8
Camber rear left -2.4, right -2.4
Toe front left .07, right .05
Toe rear left .19, right .19

With the above settings I did not see any rollover on the edges which was a problem with the PS2s. I did give the car at least one lap to warm up.

I’ve spent a lot of time on Hoosiers in Club Racing and HSR and the PSS tires don’t compete with them as you’d expect. I’ve also used Khumo VR’s and I rather have these on a dual purpose drive to the track car. I found the RE-11s to be a good dual purpose tire with pretty good wear. As noted it was a bit lacking in the wet. Again I would pick the PSS over it. As for the PS2s I replaced I would not want to go back to them.

My summary: I think Michelin has done a great job with this tire. If you want to drive to the track and use the same tires I would recommend them. And if you get caught in the rain on the highway you won’t have to slow down to 40 with white knuckles.

simsgw

Very useful report, Alan. Thank you.

Gary, whose NSX saw 140,000 miles and he also thought it amazing

brad@tirerack.com

We take our lead on classifying tires based on the manufacturer's intended market. When all tires are released there is a segment they intend them for. Once in awhile we push back after testing and tell them they missed their mark, but rarely. The Extreme Performance category has really just evolved as you know, but really because tire compounding technology has only evolved in the last few years to allow it.

I'll give some examples. Take Bridgestone... The RE-11 was designed with one thing in mind - to give it more dry performance than an RE050 will. Yokohama the same thing. They wanted the AD08 to be a stickier tire than an Advan Sport is. They succeed at doing their intended job, so they fall into the "Extreme Performance" summer catogory. Does Bridgestone or Yokohama really care how the tire does in the rain? Not as much as they do for the RE050, because rain traction is really intended more for Max Performance Summer tires than Extreme Performance Summer. Kumho XS and Hankook R-S3 are very good examples there: Killer dry tire (the Kumhos hold our 400 ft. skidpad record for lateral G's at 1.005), but so bad on a wet track as to be almost undrivable. The manufacturers in this category want them to be as sticky as possible dry - everything else is secondary. The Michelin Super Sport isn't categorized as an Extreme Performance Summer tire because, well, it isn't. As you can see in our testing it rates very well and is arguably the best Pilot yet, but it wasn't intended to be a player in the Extreme category. It would not have a mileage warranty if it did. It would also grip in dry conditions much closer to what a Sport Cup does. Why would Michelin want a tire that would rob the Cup of it's track glory?! We don't do baseline testing that we do not publish. Our tires are tested on the same cars (new 328i's) on the same track on the same day. Results are compiled with data loggers in all the cars. All of us in sales (several dozen) test them and the end results are all averaged.